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LGBT Anti-Gay Demonstration Hate 2006

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#41 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 09:54 AM

So...  This guy has been charged with misdemeanor assault & battery.  

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“I did not push anyone to the ground,” Mr. Cirignano said in an e-mailed statement. “I had a portfolio in one hand and escorted the lady back into the crowd and left. I never touched her shoulders and she apparently thought that she could draw a foul like it was a basketball game by falling down. Great theater, not Academy Award material.

By which I take it he plans to plead not guilty.  Unfortunately for him, his story contradicts that of several eyewitnesses.  For example:

Quote

At the time of incident, I was with the pro-equality folks at the front of our circle," Robarge reported. "There was no one in front of me. Ms. Loy was within the anti-marriage group but only about 20 or 15 feet away from me."

Robarge said he saw Loy being pushed. "There was a hand on each of her shoulders and then she fell," he continued. "The back of her head hit the ground. I did not see the face connected to the hands."

The eyewitness reported that he was concerned for her safety, so he dropped the sign he was holding and rushed toward Loy "because there were people around her, but they didn’t do anything to help. That’s why I didn’t see his face right away. There were people around obstructing my view."

As he went to assist Loy, Robarge said he saw a man heading through the crowd, away from Loy, and back towards the podium. "I did see that it was Mr. Cirignano," he told EDGE. "He had just spoken. I had just seen him at the podium. I didn’t know who he was but recognized him as the speaker."

Police officers came up to where Loy was lying on the ground. According to Robarge, one said, "You need to get out of here. You need to get back where you are supposed to be. You need to get her out of here, too." There was no apparent concern for Loy’s well-being, Robarge added. He was one of several witnesses who later made statements to police about the incident. Police also interviewed Loy and Cirignano.

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#42 Spectacles

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:25 AM

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“I did not push anyone to the ground,” Mr. Cirignano said in an e-mailed statement. “I had a portfolio in one hand and escorted the lady back into the crowd and left. I never touched her shoulders and she apparently thought that she could draw a foul like it was a basketball game by falling down. Great theater, not Academy Award material.


It'll be interesting to hear him describe exactly how he "escorted the lady back into the crowd." If Loy's account is accurate, I bet he's hell as a wedding usher.  :eek4:
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 02:17 PM

^

Can he do jail time for what he's being charged with? If so...Perhaps some nice inmates can "Escort" him in jail, give him the "tour".
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#44 Anastashia

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 02:56 PM

While what he did was inexcusable, what was she thinking? Why go over to the other group except as a means to incite trouble? She isn't innocent in this by a long shot.
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#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:05 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

While what he did was inexcusable, what was she thinking? Why go over to the other group except as a means to incite trouble? She isn't innocent in this by a long shot.

No, she isn't innocent by any means. But there is one BIG difference. She didn't assault anyone. I wouldn't be surprised if she went over to the other group, hoping to provoke just such a reaction, so that her side is seen as the non-violent group, ect.

An while this guy was provoked...I doubt very much the "But I was provoked" defense is going to work.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#46 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:25 PM

Ani, are you kidding?  Would you say the same about the Freedom Riders?  

She was exercising her right to free speech (in service to an important, righteous cause, by the way).  Moreover, she was doing so peacefully, and by all accounts, respectfully.  Her sign read, "Don't Write Discrimination into the Constitution."  Explosive stuff, huh?  



She in no way asked to be attacked by this nutjob -- But, hey, when you believe that the survival of not just the earth, but Heaven itself, hangs in the balance, what's a little assault & battery?

Edited by ScottEVill, 21 December 2006 - 03:25 PM.

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#47 Kosh

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:45 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

While what he did was inexcusable, what was she thinking? Why go over to the other group except as a means to incite trouble? She isn't innocent in this by a long shot.


She has as much right to protest as anyone else in the USA. He does not have a right to Assault someone.
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#48 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:49 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 21 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

She in no way asked to be attacked by this nutjob -- But, hey, when you believe that the survival of not just the earth, but Heaven itself, hangs in the balance, what's a little assault & battery?

In a way, I disagree. Going over to the other protest group, with a sign that is against their belief, and shouting your opinion...riots have happened for less.

It would be like a KKK member walking up, in full Klan uniform, with sign, walking up to a group of black people gathered together to remember MLK...or something to the effect. I'm sure you can imagine what might happen.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#49 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 04:23 PM

I can, but I can't imagine thinking that the KKK member in your hypothetical deserved it.  Or even that s/he deserved to be criticized for expressing freedom of speech.  

I think one of the quintissentially American ideas about free speech is that we should defend the right of someone to say that which makes our blood boil.

Edited by ScottEVill, 21 December 2006 - 04:39 PM.

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#50 Anastashia

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 05:05 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 21 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Ani, are you kidding?  Would you say the same about the Freedom Riders?  

She was exercising her right to free speech (in service to an important, righteous cause, by the way).  Moreover, she was doing so peacefully, and by all accounts, respectfully.  Her sign read, "Don't Write Discrimination into the Constitution."  Explosive stuff, huh?  



She in no way asked to be attacked by this nutjob -- But, hey, when you believe that the survival of not just the earth, but Heaven itself, hangs in the balance, what's a little assault & battery?

Actually Scott by what the police officer who is quoted above said she was not being totally respectful. She wasn't respecting the guidelines laid down for the demonstration which assigned a location to each group. If she had respected those guidelines there's a very good chance this wouldn't have happened at all.

View PostKosh, on Dec 21 2006, 03:45 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

While what he did was inexcusable, what was she thinking? Why go over to the other group except as a means to incite trouble? She isn't innocent in this by a long shot.


She has as much right to protest as anyone else in the USA. He does not have a right to Assault someone.

I believe the first thing I said Kosh was "what he did was inexcusable". Her right to protest was not being impinged by staying with the group she was a part of and by leaving that group she set up the circumstances for what happened to her.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#51 Banapis

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 07:15 PM

I agree that if she was shoved, it was utterly inappropriate. At the same time, Ani raises a good point:

Anastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

Actually Scott by what the police officer who is quoted above said she was not being totally respectful. She wasn't respecting the guidelines laid down for the demonstration which assigned a location to each group. If she had respected those guidelines there's a very good chance this wouldn't have happened at all.

Her intentionally choosing to violate the rules and jump into the opposing crowd makes her own motives in this entire affair suspect.  As long as it remains a "he said - she said" situation I'm more inclined to believe the person that wasn't behaving suspiciously.

Since it looks like she intentionally tried to provoke a situation, and went over to "get in the faces" of her opposition, I wouldn't be surprised at all if she did indeed take a dive.

Banapis

#52 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 07:54 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 21 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Ani, are you kidding?  Would you say the same about the Freedom Riders?  

She was exercising her right to free speech (in service to an important, righteous cause, by the way).  Moreover, she was doing so peacefully, and by all accounts, respectfully.  Her sign read, "Don't Write Discrimination into the Constitution."  Explosive stuff, huh?  



She in no way asked to be attacked by this nutjob -- But, hey, when you believe that the survival of not just the earth, but Heaven itself, hangs in the balance, what's a little assault & battery?

Actually Scott by what the police officer who is quoted above said she was not being totally respectful. She wasn't respecting the guidelines laid down for the demonstration which assigned a location to each group.

View PostKosh, on Dec 21 2006, 03:45 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

While what he did was inexcusable, what was she thinking? Why go over to the other group except as a means to incite trouble? She isn't innocent in this by a long shot.


She has as much right to protest as anyone else in the USA. He does not have a right to Assault someone.

I believe the first thing I said Kosh was "what he did was inexcusable". Her right to protest was not being impinged by staying with the group she was a part of and by leaving that group she set up the circumstances for what happened to her.

Ani, you're saying, "what he did was inexcusable but..."  If what he did was so inexcusable, why do you feel the need to qualify the remark with a variation on the venerable "blame the victim" strategy?  

If she wasn't standing where she was directed to stand, fine -- I must've missed that bit.  

She wasn't alone, by the way.  The person who helped her--whose remarks I quoted up-thread--was also there, and so were other pro-gay marriage protestors.  I have to wonder, if they were so disruptive, wouldn't the police have removed them?  I'd also point out that non-violent protestors have a loooong, venerated history of putting themselves where they're not supposed to be -- for example, in the front of the bus, or on the steps of the Capitol.  Their presence may be disruptive, but it's not violent, and that's an important distinction to make.  

In any case, she is not responsible for the assault on her person.  Please help me to understand how remarks like " If she had respected those guidelines there's a very good chance this wouldn't have happened at all" do anything other than blame the victim?

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#53 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 08:09 PM

banapis said:

Her intentionally choosing to violate the rules and jump into the opposing crowd makes her own motives in this entire affair suspect. As long as it remains a "he said - she said" situation I'm more inclined to believe the person that wasn't behaving suspiciously.

Since it looks like she intentionally tried to provoke a situation, and went over to "get in the faces" of her opposition, I wouldn't be surprised at all if she did indeed take a dive.

Banapis

It's not a "he said-she said" situation, Banapis, there were many witnesses.  (And one of the officers quoted in the article up-thread says Cirignano admitted to her that he "pushed her down," so he's contradicting himself, and the officer, in the denial he issued the next day.)  

And she was not acting "suspiciously" -- She was doing what protestors do: protesting.  Nothing suspicious about that.  

Again, she was not the only pro gay marriage person standing there.  According to the witness I quoted up-thread, *he* was closer to the podium than she was... yet Cirignano attacked her.  

Could it be that she presented a target for his rage that was somewhat less, oh I dunno... threatening?

BTW, here's the quote from the article again:

Quote

During the interview, Robarge described the scene. He said a podium had been set up on the steps of City Hall and there were about 20 or 30 feet of space around it. Anti-gay marriage supporters gathered in a half circle around the podium. The buffer zone about five or six feet separated them from the group of pro-equality supporters, also gathered in a half circle.

"Five or six feet separated them."  This was not a situation where she should've been hundreds of feet away -- This was the kind of situation where three steps either way would've brought any of them from one side to the other.  Not that that should matter.

ETA: See how he responded to a gay man's email here.  This man's opposition to gay marriage in Mass is not principled (not that I've ever seen *principled* opposition on this issue) -- It's fueled purely by hate.

Last edit (promise): here's the picture I mentioend up-thread.  The article attached to it indicates that police have taken statements from three witnesses who saw Cirignano "push her down."  So, no -- This is not a "he said-she said" situation.

Edited by ScottEVill, 21 December 2006 - 08:26 PM.

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#54 Anastashia

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 08:33 PM

I'm basing what I'm saying on what you just quoted above Scott. The way I read that there was a circle around the podium. One group of protestors was in one half, the other in the other half. She actively moved to the other side. BTW, somebody taking three steps does not move six feet unless they're stretching their leg out as far as they possibly can.

The person you quoted up thread said he only moved there after she went down because he was concerned for her safety. He also said he did not see who knocked her down. He said he saw two hands on her shoulders but not a face. Then he said he saw the alleged attacker moving through the crowd back to the podium. The alleged attacker said he had a portfolio in one of his hands. If that's so then there's a good chance it couldn't have been his two hands on her shoulders.

I went to your originally linked site. I saw no statements from any other witnesses. It was also stated several times that the people around her weren't even aware she had fallen. That to me said there was no action taken by someone so violent that other people wouldn't have noticed it. Sounds to me more like she tripped or went down on purpose as some have suggested.

So it's entirely possible the alleged attacker saw her move into the other group, went down and asked her to move back (and yes he may have placed one hand on her arm and attempted to steer her back to the other side which wasn't right either), and she somehow fell based on the info we have. To be honest I don't think what he did was the best move, but I do think that if she hadn't moved to the other side she wouldn't have gone down at all. Therefore she has some responsibility for what happened to her.

EDIT - It looks like I was composing this post while you were editing in a link to another article. That article actually makes two points I'll mention. There are also witnesses that support Cirignano's version. That article makes it clear she just didn't inadvertantly get into the opposing group but made an active effort to get deeply into that group and disrupt the proceedings.

Edited by Anastashia, 21 December 2006 - 08:51 PM.

The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#55 scherzo

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 10:32 PM

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“He grabbed my shoulders, both of my shoulders, and I guess I must have turned towards him … Suddenly I was facing him, away from the crowd. He just had grabbed me by the shoulders and said, ‘You need to get out of here right now. You need to get out, you need to get out,’” said Loy.

As Cirignano pushed her back towards the edge of the crowd eventually she fell over backwards and landed on her side.
Hmmmmmm....not exactly the 5 point palm exploding heart technique, but I guess ya gotta milk the drama whenever possible. I'm looking forward to Sarah Loy sporting the "neck brace chic" look when she appears in court. :)

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#56 Anastashia

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 10:55 PM

If somebody is behind you and has one hand on each of your shoulders and you turn toward them how do they keep a hand on each shooulder in order to be able to push you? You wouldn't be able to turn more than 90 degrees before your falling backward would be precluded by their arm which would now be braced across your back.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#57 Mark

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:08 PM

Mark: From the article on October 5, 2006 where the California appeals court upheld the law banning gay marriages in California...when are they gonna get that to their Supreme Court?
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#58 Mark

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:12 PM

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Police interviewed Mr. Cirignano, but did not arrest him.

Mark: Sounds like a clear-cut case of assault, to me. I wonder why they chose not to arrest him?
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#59 Anastashia

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:20 PM

View PostMark, on Dec 21 2006, 11:12 PM, said:

Quote

Police interviewed Mr. Cirignano, but did not arrest him.

Mark: Sounds like a clear-cut case of assault, to me. I wonder why they chose not to arrest him?

As someone said above Mark they would have had to see it to arrest him immediately. What they had to do instead was conduct an investigation in order to have sufficient evidence to arrest him.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#60 BklnScott

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:26 PM

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I'm basing what I'm saying on what you just quoted above Scott. The way I read that there was a circle around the podium. One group of protestors was in one half, the other in the other half. She actively moved to the other side. BTW, somebody taking three steps does not move six feet unless they're stretching their leg out as far as they possibly can.

So make it six steps -- or ten.  You were arguing that if she hadn't been where she wasn't supposed to be, this might not have happened, as though she was supposed to be quite a distance away ... and not five to six feet.  

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The person you quoted up thread said he only moved there after she went down because he was concerned for her safety. He also said he did not see who knocked her down.

From the same article linked up thread, Sgt Hazelhurst, a cop, says:

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"He pushed her down and he admits that..."

Who knocked her down is not in dispute, Ani.  According to the cop, he admitted what he did on the scene, so either she's lying, or he contradicted himself a day later in the Boston Globe interview.  I know who I think has more credibility.  

Quote

So it's entirely possible the alleged attacker saw her move into the other group, went down and asked her to move back (and yes he may have placed one hand on her arm and attempted to steer her back to the other side which wasn't right either), and she somehow fell based on the info we have. To be honest I don't think what he did was the best move, but I do think that if she hadn't moved to the other side she wouldn't have gone down at all. Therefore she has some responsibility for what happened to her.

How is that any different from arguing that she had it coming?  What she did in no way gave him license to assault her.  But, as she said, "that's what hate does."

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