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LGBT Anti-Gay Demonstration Hate 2006

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#81 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 02:07 PM

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Drew: It does both "sides" a disservice to paint those who hold an opposing view as somehow crazy and unreasonable.

I actually think this comes down the old fact that hatred breeds more hate.  Both sides are so caught up in their hatred of each other that all they see is the enemy.   If you state into the abyss long enough you just become the opposite side of the coin.  Just as fanatical, just as full of hate, and just as dangerous to the innocent people caught in the middle.  My fear is the gay rights movement and the radical religious movements are both going to destroy each other in their hatred and the rest of us are along for the ride.  Both are absolutely convinced of their moral superiority to the point of rabid fanaticism.  Eventually the fanatics start to take lives once they say, “I’m no longer even willing to consider a compromise”.

I've honestly lost all interest in what either side has to say as long as they keep preaching their hate.          

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ScottEvill: Here's my problem with her: she's looking for the compromise position--and quite genuinely, it seems--but there is no compromising with people who think you are "abomination." She's saying to one side, "we're gonna be more welcoming," and to the other, "but not that welcoming." Sorry. Untennable.

So you are pretty much saying “You are either with us or against us”?  

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ScottEvill: Most issues are nuanced, but this one is not. There is clear-cut right, and clear-cut wrong here -- and eventually, that will be universally recognized
That statement is the exact same words that I would expect to hear coming out of the mouth of the people you are against.
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#82 Anastashia

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 02:07 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 22 2006, 09:50 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 11:35 PM, said:


No Lil I'm just saying that if she wasn't where she was she wouldn't have gotten hurt, that's a fact that no one can argue with.

Uh, no.  You're talking about the difference of "five or six feet," as I said up-thread.

Doubtful it was five or six feet, I don't know why you keep bringing up that number. She herself said

Quote

I walked through the crowd until I was right in front of them and held my sign up for them to see
.


View PostScottEVill, on Dec 22 2006, 10:50 AM, said:

BTW, Ani:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 08:33 PM, said:

I went to your originally linked site. I saw no statements from any other witnesses.

Quote

The victim, Sarah Loy, 27, along with multiple witnesses, say Cirignano shoved Loy after she ventured into the VoteOnMarriage crowd holding a MassEquality sign, and as he pushed her toward the outer perimeter of the VoteOnMarriage crowd she fell backwards onto the pavement.

Yes they say multiple witnesses but there's nothing from those witnesses. The other side says they have witnesses that he didn't push her. So we're no where there.



Let's see other things you said and and I can no longer deal with the nested quotes. Conspiracy theory and making her the same as a rape victim who might have dressed provocatively. Yes maybe it is a conspiracy, as Banapis has stated also there's ample evidence of that type of activity by the ACLU. As for the dressing. No it's not the same. Loy took a specific action that she didn't have to in making her point. She could just have easily made it by staying with the counter demonstrators.
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#83 Rhea

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 03:58 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 09:28 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

I'm not saying that he had a right to assault her. I'm saying that if she hadn't put herself in that position she wouldn't have been assaulted. She's an ACLU board member. She's no total innocent bystander in this. She was trying to provoke a reaction by what she did and she got it.

As to who's description of what happened is more credible, if you read my post #56 above and think about it you'll realize as I did that what she says happened is physically impossible.


Okay so, assuming that she was attacked (if she wasn't then she's a liar and does a disservice to her cause), unless you're saying that the reaction that she was trying to provoke is that she'd get assaulted, which is pretty far out there, there is no justification at all, no matter how anyone spins it, for either the guy assaulting her or for the authorities tacitly approving it.  Period.

And arguing that there is or that she bears some responsibility for being HURT is for me exactly the same as arguing that Civil Rights activists in the 60's bore some responsibility for being attacked (or killed) by people who disagreed with them.  Violence is violence.

Lil

No Lil I'm just saying that if she wasn't where she was she wouldn't have gotten hurt, that's a fact that no one can argue with. There was a perfectly viable avenue to make her point and she felt the need to go outside of that avenue. If she hadn't she wouldn't have gotten hurt. If you don't think that makes her somewhat responsible you have a right to your opinion, but you can't argue it wouldn't have happened.

What you've been saying, Ani, is akin to saying that if a woman didn't want to be raped she shouldn't dress provocatively.

The fact that she wanted to get in the middle of things in no way validates your apparent assumption that she deserved to be assaulted.
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#84 DWF

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:10 PM

View Postomegaman, on Dec 22 2006, 02:16 AM, said:

View PostDWF, on Dec 19 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Actually, my personal favorites are the Christians who saying letting gay couples marry will undermine marriage. I figure their form of marriage must be pretty pathetic if allowing their neighbors to marry will destroy their own marriages or the institution itself.

I agree.  The first mistake Christians made was allowing the state to become a party to their marriage.  As such the state is well within its rights to issue licenses to whomever it pleases.  Originally a marriage was a covenant between a man, a woman and God.  No license (that is - permission to do something that is otherwise illegal) was issued by anybody.  

If someone wants to go to city hall with their  cabbage patch doll I could care less.  If two men want to get a state issued license to cohabitate I feel the same way.  It still doesn't make it a marriage in the sight of God.  No matter how much certain people don't like to hear that, its the truth.

I didn't say that where'd you get that from?  :eh:
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#85 Spectacles

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:14 PM

Banapis and Ani, I had no idea that the ACLU coached demonstrators to "take dives" and stage events like this. Can you provide more info on this?

Thanks.
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#86 Anastashia

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:17 PM

View PostRhea, on Dec 22 2006, 03:58 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 09:28 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

I'm not saying that he had a right to assault her. I'm saying that if she hadn't put herself in that position she wouldn't have been assaulted. She's an ACLU board member. She's no total innocent bystander in this. She was trying to provoke a reaction by what she did and she got it.

As to who's description of what happened is more credible, if you read my post #56 above and think about it you'll realize as I did that what she says happened is physically impossible.


Okay so, assuming that she was attacked (if she wasn't then she's a liar and does a disservice to her cause), unless you're saying that the reaction that she was trying to provoke is that she'd get assaulted, which is pretty far out there, there is no justification at all, no matter how anyone spins it, for either the guy assaulting her or for the authorities tacitly approving it.  Period.

And arguing that there is or that she bears some responsibility for being HURT is for me exactly the same as arguing that Civil Rights activists in the 60's bore some responsibility for being attacked (or killed) by people who disagreed with them.  Violence is violence.

Lil

No Lil I'm just saying that if she wasn't where she was she wouldn't have gotten hurt, that's a fact that no one can argue with. There was a perfectly viable avenue to make her point and she felt the need to go outside of that avenue. If she hadn't she wouldn't have gotten hurt. If you don't think that makes her somewhat responsible you have a right to your opinion, but you can't argue it wouldn't have happened.

What you've been saying, Ani, is akin to saying that if a woman didn't want to be raped she shouldn't dress provocatively.

The fact that she wanted to get in the middle of things in no way validates your apparent assumption that she deserved to be assaulted.

Rhea, I have never said or implied that she deserved to be assaulted. What I have said is that if she hadn't done what she had done she would not have been assaulted. I don't think anyone here can refute that. It wouldn't have happened if she didn't take the action she did period!

It's got nothing to do with dressing provocatively either. Those women would have gotten raped because of where they were regardless of how they were dressed because they happened to be in a place where a rapist was going to rape. What they were wearing has nothing to do with it.

Loy would not have been attacked if she wasn't where she was just like the raped women wouldn't have been raped if they weren't where they were. There's no way you can refute that her location factored in her being assaulted and she would not have been assaulted if she wasn't there. Unlike the women being raped though she knew she wasn't supposed to be there but she actively made the decision to go there. The women who were raped had no such prior knowledge.

Edited to change at to had in the last sentence.

Edited by Anastashia, 22 December 2006 - 04:21 PM.

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In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
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I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
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#87 Spectacles

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:28 PM

Respectfully, whether she was where she was supposed to be or not, if the man shoved her, he's responsible for his actions. He could have simply asked that the police, who were present, escort her back to the designated area for counter-protests.

But the fact remains that we don't know what happened. Could be she was shoved. Could be she was, as the man claims, "an actress" and only pretended to have been shoved. But that takes a whole lot of moxie to wade into an unfriendly section of the crowd, be politely escorted back by the speaker, who simply paused to help her find her way back to the protestors' section, and then fall to the ground and pretend--in front of a whole bunch of people who think you're evil incarnate--to have been shoved by the guy. So I'm actually inclined to believe her. But, again, we don't know all the facts.

Edited by Spectacles, 22 December 2006 - 04:30 PM.

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#88 BklnScott

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:33 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 22 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 22 2006, 09:50 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 11:35 PM, said:


No Lil I'm just saying that if she wasn't where she was she wouldn't have gotten hurt, that's a fact that no one can argue with.

Uh, no.  You're talking about the difference of "five or six feet," as I said up-thread.

Doubtful it was five or six feet, I don't know why you keep bringing up that number.

Quote

During the interview, Robarge described the scene. He said a podium had been set up on the steps of City Hall and there were about 20 or 30 feet of space around it. Anti-gay marriage supporters gathered in a half circle around the podium. The buffer zone about five or six feet separated them from the group of pro-equality supporters, also gathered in a half circle.

That's why I keep bringing up that number.

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 08:33 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

I went to your originally linked site. I saw no statements from any other witnesses.

The victim, Sarah Loy, 27, along with multiple witnesses, say Cirignano shoved Loy after she ventured into the VoteOnMarriage crowd holding a MassEquality sign, and as he pushed her toward the outer perimeter of the VoteOnMarriage crowd she fell backwards onto the pavement.

Yes they say multiple witnesses but there's nothing from those witnesses. The other side says they have witnesses that he didn't push her. So we're no where there.

This article (and the Boston Globe article, and others) indicate that there are "multiple witnesses" who support the allegation that Cirignano knocked her down.  If there are witnesses who say otherwise -- besides Cirignano, and let's remember that he's already contradicted himself -- then I haven't seen those reports.  Would you care to post those links?  

Quote

Let's see other things you said and and I can no longer deal with the nested quotes. Conspiracy theory and making her the same as a rape victim who might have dressed provocatively. Yes maybe it is a conspiracy, as Banapis has stated also there's ample evidence of that type of activity by the ACLU.

So she somehow goaded him into attacking her?  Yep--Definitely a conspiracy theory.  

Quote

As for the dressing. No it's not the same. Loy took a specific action that she didn't have to in making her point.

A woman dressing in an especially suggestive way didn't have to do so, either.  In both cases, the crux of the argument is the same: blame the victim.  

Quote

She could just have easily made it by staying with the counter demonstrators.

"5 to 6 feet away."  Why you keep insisting that would've made a difference, I don't understand.  There were other protestors closer to the podium (e.g., witness Robarge, above), and Cirignano didn't attack them.  He went after her.  Why do you suppose that is, Ani?  Is this another facet of the conspiracy?

Or did he pick her because she's a woman, and therefore less of a threat?  

cj aegis said:

Just as fanatical, just as full of hate, and just as dangerous to the innocent people caught in the middle. My fear is the gay rights movement and the radical religious movements are both going to destroy each other in their hatred and the rest of us are along for the ride. Both are absolutely convinced of their moral superiority to the point of rabid fanaticism. Eventually the fanatics start to take lives once they say, “I’m no longer even willing to consider a compromise”.

I have never heard of even one incident where a supporter of gay rights assaulted someone on the other side of this issue.  Unfortunately, assaults by anti-gay people on those they perceive to be gay are all too common.  

So how you can honestly equate the two sides here, I'll never understand.

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#89 Anastashia

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 04:59 PM

Yes I know where the number came from Scott but she's admitted that she went further in one of the links you posted which I quoted to you.

The info about other witnesses is in one of the links you posted.

I've told you already and it's also in one of the links you posted, Robarge was in the group Loy was part of and did not leave that group until after he saw her go down. Only then did he leave the group to go to her assistance. He certainly said nothing to indicate he was closer than she was at any time.

Conspiracy theory - already answered, prior ACLU activities. Ask Banapis for links that's been in his contributions to the discussion.

Provocative dress, in my last post when we were probably both posting at the same time.

Edited by Anastashia, 22 December 2006 - 05:01 PM.

The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#90 Spectacles

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 05:28 PM

From http://www.baywindow...FD949C4EDD2B128

Quote

“I walked through the crowd until I was right in front of them and held my sign up for them to see,” said Loy.

At that point, Loy said, Cirignano, who had spoken earlier at the rally, approached her and began pushing her.

“He grabbed my shoulders, both of my shoulders, and I guess I must have turned towards him … Suddenly I was facing him, away from the crowd. He just had grabbed me by the shoulders and said, ‘You need to get out of here right now. You need to get out, you need to get out,’” said Loy.

As Cirignano pushed her back towards the edge of the crowd eventually she fell over backwards and landed on her side.

“He was walking with me in his hands … me going backwards, him going forwards … He was just pushing very forcefully from the beginning, and the end was me falling onto the concrete on my right side,” Loy told Bay Windows.

She said she was not seriously injured in the fall, but she was momentarily in shock. “I was definitely shocked, and I can tell you I’m sore. It doesn’t feel good to hit the pavement,” she said.

Multiple eyewitnesses corroborated Loy’s account of what happened, including Richard Nangle, a Worcester Telegram and Gazette reporter covering the rally who wrote in detail about the altercation between Cirignano and Loy. Nangle reported that Cirignano shoved Loy to the ground, and he told Bay Windows he saw the altercation take place firsthand.

“Where I came into it was I saw him push her to the ground. Whatever precipitated that, how the confrontation began, I didn’t see that, but I saw the push,” said Nangle. “It happened just a few feet in front of me, and her head landed right in front of my feet.”

In his account of the assault, published Dec. 17 in the Telegram and Gazette, Nagle wrote that Cirignano “pushed her to the ground, her head slamming against the concrete sidewalk.”

Nangle said after Loy hit the ground Cirignano turned and ran back into the crowd to the podium. Nangle said he did not immediately recognize Cirignano, but after following him through the crowd and seeing him from a closer angle he realized that Cirignano had been one of the main speakers from earlier in the rally. He spoke with Cirignano and learned his identity, and he said he was shocked to find out that Loy’s attacker was a key member of VoteOnMarriage.org’s team.

“What surprised me was that this wasn’t some guy attending the rally who was overzealous, this was an important player in this issue. And to me that’s what elevated that to a news story where I needed to lead the story with this as opposed to just mentioning there had been an incident,” said Nangle.

Another witness was the Rev. Aaron Payson of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Worcester, who said he first noticed the altercation when he saw Cirignano pushing Loy out of the crowd.

“I saw him approach her, essentially push her backwards about 10 feet and push her to the ground,” said Payson.


He said after Loy fell, Cirignano made no effort to help her or ask if she was hurt. “He walked back up front to the platform and stood behind the platform,” said Payson.

So we have a reporter and a minister saying that they saw Cirigano push Loy back until she fell.
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"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#91 Spectacles

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 05:31 PM

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Ani: Conspiracy theory - already answered, prior ACLU activities. Ask Banapis for links that's been in his contributions to the discussion.

I'm still curious about this linkage of being a member of the ACLU to pretending to be assaulted in a protest and would appreciate more information about this.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#92 Rhea

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 08:56 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 22 2006, 01:17 PM, said:

View PostRhea, on Dec 22 2006, 03:58 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 09:28 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 21 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

I'm not saying that he had a right to assault her. I'm saying that if she hadn't put herself in that position she wouldn't have been assaulted. She's an ACLU board member. She's no total innocent bystander in this. She was trying to provoke a reaction by what she did and she got it.

As to who's description of what happened is more credible, if you read my post #56 above and think about it you'll realize as I did that what she says happened is physically impossible.


Okay so, assuming that she was attacked (if she wasn't then she's a liar and does a disservice to her cause), unless you're saying that the reaction that she was trying to provoke is that she'd get assaulted, which is pretty far out there, there is no justification at all, no matter how anyone spins it, for either the guy assaulting her or for the authorities tacitly approving it.  Period.

And arguing that there is or that she bears some responsibility for being HURT is for me exactly the same as arguing that Civil Rights activists in the 60's bore some responsibility for being attacked (or killed) by people who disagreed with them.  Violence is violence.

Lil

No Lil I'm just saying that if she wasn't where she was she wouldn't have gotten hurt, that's a fact that no one can argue with. There was a perfectly viable avenue to make her point and she felt the need to go outside of that avenue. If she hadn't she wouldn't have gotten hurt. If you don't think that makes her somewhat responsible you have a right to your opinion, but you can't argue it wouldn't have happened.

What you've been saying, Ani, is akin to saying that if a woman didn't want to be raped she shouldn't dress provocatively.

The fact that she wanted to get in the middle of things in no way validates your apparent assumption that she deserved to be assaulted.

Rhea, I have never said or implied that she deserved to be assaulted. What I have said is that if she hadn't done what she had done she would not have been assaulted. I don't think anyone here can refute that. It wouldn't have happened if she didn't take the action she did period!

Do you honestly not see how repeating over and over again that if she hadn't been there she wouldn't have been assaulted looks to some of us as though you're saying she deserved it for being in the wrong place?  :eek4:

Wrong place or no, nobody deserves to be pushed around or thrown to the ground. Your reassertion that she was in the wrong place completely takes the onus away from the idiot who pushed her. HE had a choice and he made a wrong one.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#93 Anastashia

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 09:00 PM

She had a choice too Rhea and she made the one that put her into a position where she was attacked. If she hadn't made that choice she would not have been attacked. What is so hard to understand about that simple fact?
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#94 BklnScott

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 09:27 PM

Nothing.  I think we all understand exactly what you're saying, but honestly, Ani, I'm not too sure *you* understand what you're saying, because I know you to be a good person, but at the same time, you're invoking an argument that can, and is, used to blame the victim for any sort of crime perpetrated on him/her.  

We're focusing on rape because it's the classic argument used by sleazy defense attorneys in an effort to blame the victim rather than put the blame where it belongs, on his/her client.  (I'm making the assumption that if the client is, in fact, not guilty, they wouldn't have to resort to "blame the victim."  There would be exculpatory evidence to point to instead.)

Let's take this away from the facts at hand and into what I hope will be a less heated, less emotional hypothetical.

If someone makes a choice to walk down a dark alley, and that person gets mugged, or raped, or killed, does that mean s/he shares in the responsibility for that act just because they walked down a dark alley?  

I think not.  

True, it might not have been the smartest decision that person ever made -- but the perp's actions, and the responsibility for them, are still his own, and no one else's.

And it's clearly the same in this case.  No one forced this man to come out from behind his podium and attack this woman, and nothing justifies that action, either.  Full-stop.

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#95 Spectacles

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 09:27 PM

Ani, it sounds like what you're saying is that her being attacked is a logical consequence of her being there.  But is this gentleman's response to her logical? Is it necessary? Did he have a choice of how to respond to her being where he didn't want her to be? Or is the responsibility solely on her? Are you saying that she provoked him and so that somehow excuses his behavior? I don't think that's what you're saying, by the way, but I can see how constantly saying "well, she shouldn't have been there" sounds that way. It seems to take the responsibility away from the man who shoved her.
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"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#96 Lin731

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 11:11 PM

Quote

She had a choice too Rhea and she made the one that put her into a position where she was attacked. If she hadn't made that choice she would not have been attacked. What is so hard to understand about that simple fact?

You keep saying that you're not justifying what this guy did, yet every post fairly screams "She got what she had coming to her".


Quote

She had a choice too Rhea and she made the one that put her into a position where she was attacked. If she hadn't made that choice she would not have been attacked. What is so hard to understand about that simple fact?

He had a choice to make as well and apparently he chose to push this woman down because he was angry. What is so hard to understand about that simple fact? They both made choices, her's didn't involve physically assaulting someone, his did. He had the choice of summoning one of the cops on hand to remove her, yet he didn't did he? No one made him go over to her and do anything.
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#97 Mark

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 04:58 AM

Mark: I think everyone's opinion here is correct to an extent. The man was wrong in what he did.
However, the woman broke one of the first rules of street-wise self-defense...Don't put yourself in a situation where you have a good chance of being victimized. She walked into her enemies rally...therefore putting herself in a situation. The man wasn't right at all, and she does have the right to go to that rally...but using the street-wise sense I've developed over the past 30 years, I wouldn't have gone there had I been her.

Edited by Mark, 23 December 2006 - 08:54 AM.

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#98 Anastashia

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 07:57 AM

Exactly Mark. Scott you've used the point that gays have been attacked, she's an ACLU boaed member, she knows that. She has responsibility for her own actions and she took herself into a place she had reasonable cause to know that she could be putting herself in danger.

That's the same as your hypothetical example. If you have reasonable cause to know you're putting yourself in danger than you have responsibility for the decision you make. Anything else says you have no free will to make that decision. That's being a victim big time IMHO.

Lin you seem to have my point too, although maybe you didn't realize it. You said "They both made choices", exactly. For anyone to go on then and say she's not responsible for her choice only denigrates her as a human being.

It's the same for the civil rights protestors, it's the same for those who bravely chose to sit in the front of the bus. They didn't do it as victims, they did it because they clearly felt it was the right thing to do at the time. It's not their fault if someone else made them a victin of violence so the use of the word blame has no meaning here. But to say they weren't responsible for their own actions turns them into sheep blindly following someone else IMO.

Edited to add - Let's put it this way, if you blame someone for something that happens to them you are making them a victim; if you assign them responsibility for their own actions you are empowering them. Put in that context BTW the use of "blame the victim" to advocate for one makes me cringe.

Edited by Anastashia, 23 December 2006 - 08:29 AM.

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#99 Mark

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 10:31 AM

Zwolf:

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Oh, I understand that... but, even with free will, I don't know why the god doesn't make it clearer what pleases and displeases him.

Mark: He does...for those who listen, and read the Bible. God makes it VERY clear...not once, but many times...for the hard of head.
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#100 Natolii

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 10:35 AM

Ana, I cannot believe you are saying that she brought this on herself.

The whole "If she wasn't there, this wouldn't have happened" smacks of blaming the victim. No matter how many times you say it does not, it it all honesty does.

Sorry, but just because she left her position is no justification for this. If it was that big of a deal he could have just as easily signaled to police and had them handle the situation.

But no, Mr. Macho has to push a woman a good several feet before she ends up on her arse.

Yes, she has to take responsibility for her actions, but that in NO WAY justifies nor mitigates battery in this situation.
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