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Saddam Hussein To Die in 30 Days

Iraq Saddam Hussein Execution in 30 days 2006

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#81 BklnScott

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 01:12 PM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Dec 29 2006, 08:10 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 29 2006, 07:42 PM, said:

And now you'd have the state--which represents us--turn around and do the same: "take the lives of others into their own hands and kill them."
Yep certainly if said person has committed murder.  

When we use the death penalty, we do to the criminal exactly what he did to his victims.  And on many well-documented occasions, we've done it to people who were later proved to be innocent of the charges against them.  So how, exactly, are we better than they are?

CJ said:

Scott said:

CJ said:

What it comes down to is killing clearly guilty people versus innocent people.
ScottEVill: Yeah, well--There's the rub.  No state has ever been able to meet that burden--killing only the guilty.

Good then try to explain how Saddam is not guilty.  If there is ever a case that tosses out the claim of the facing the death penalty might be innocent this is the case.  I'll be the first to say I'm not a huge fan of the death penalty being applied liberally and a lot because it does catch innocent people.  I'm not going to advocate it being used in cases where you are relying on the testimony of one or two people who may have seen the crime or some physical evidence.  But when someone commits genocide, walks into a school or other public place and shoots it up, or does some other murderous crime where there is an overwhelming pile of witnesses and evidence against them I have no problem with them walking to the gallows.

So I say again prove how Saddam might be an innocent man and doesn't deserve to hang if that is the burden of your argument against the death penalty in this case?  Because ultimately what we are talking about in this thread is Saddam.

Yes, ultimately that is what we are talking about, Kerry--but it's not what we were talking about here.  Out of context quoting makes that harder to discern, so I've restored your remark above ("what it comes down to...").

I'm not gonna argue that Saddam was innocent -- Clearly, he was guilty as sin.  He was a murderer and a torturer and a rapist many hundreds--if not thousands--of times over.  He was also a war criminal.  If anyone ever deserved the death penalty, it was him.  But no one ever does.  

Better to keep him in solitary in Abu Ghraib for the rest of his life.  And, for those concerned with vengeance: Saddam's suffering is over now.  His punishment has been meted out.  Take him out of the oven -- He's done.  

Don'tcha think his crimes deserved a few more years (or decades) of monotonous tedium confined to a 5 by 5 cell, eating garbage and getting abused by the guards?  (And remember what a rich, rich man this was -- His previous standard of living was so opulent, it was Khashoggi-esque.)  

I'm just saying: that seems like the greater punishment to me.

It's the difference between pulling the bandaid off all at once -- or one hair at a time.  It's obvious to me which is more grueling.

This answer also has the virtue of not dragging us down to his level.  

The bottom line is this: if we cannot devise a policy that makes absolutely certain no innocent person is ever executed, then no person should ever be executed -- just to make sure.   This is the school of thought on which our entire justice system was founded: better to let 100 guilty men go free than see 1 innocent man hanged.  

That's a high standard to live up to, certainly -- and, IMO, that's as it should be.

View PostG1223, on Dec 30 2006, 11:14 AM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Dec 29 2006, 11:38 PM, said:

I look at the death penalty from the side of what it does to us. It diminishes us if we support it. As someone alluded to we become vengeful not advocates of justice.


Then what were we suppose to do?

Keep paying for the next 20 years for the upkeep of a man who had murdered a few people with his own hands and ordered the death of tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of other people?

Pottery Barn rules, G.  That man's fate wasn't our problem until we made it our problem.  He was contained.  He wasn't a threat to anyone, let alone to us.  But we decided to go in there anyway.  So "what are we supposed to do?" isn't particularly persuasive -- We didn't have to do anything, and we certainly shouldn't've gone in there pretending to have all the answers when we didn't have any.

And please don't trot out the old money canard -- That's been definitively debunked, at least as regards the American justice system.  It actually costs MORE for us to put someone to death than it does to keep them locked up for the rest of their lives:

Quote

A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

g said:

Keeping a mass killer alive only shows we let law get in the way of justice.

:eek:  Well, that's the kind of thing that dictators tend to say.  This is not the Old West.  Justice is not justice if one must *defy* the law to achieve it--and anyone who does so becomes a criminal himself.  The law is not perfect--far from it--but it's all we've got.  It's what separates us from people like Saddam.  

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When the state takes on the duty of executioner it does so bring a sense of justice to the victim's family.
I'm sure the Taliban would agree with you there.  In fact, the Taliban would let the victim's closest male relative be the Executioner.  How would you feel about that, G?  

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It does so to main tain an illusion that if you murder someone that this fate may await you.

It's been proved, time and again, that the death penalty does not work as a deterrent.  The people we're talking about live their day to day lives in fear of being killed by their enemies -- They've made their peace with it.  

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It does so to protect society from a dangerous person who if allowed loose would kill again and again.
Life without parole has the same effect--and, unlike the death penalty, it has the virtue of being reversible in those cases where our imperfect justice system is later proved to have acted in error.  

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Because sometimes the crime committed is so inhuman that death is the only thing left for the state to do.

This is just one of my pet peeves.  It's not inhuman.  It is, in fact, within human nature to do these things.  We are, after all, animals.  It is--thankfully--also within human nature to refrain from responding to depravity with more depravity.  We can, and should, respond in the most civilized way possible -- because we're supposed to be better than them.  That means life in prison.

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The only way life in prison works is if the person feels guilt or remorse over their actions. Otherwise it is a waiting room for hell and the killer does not care. If that is the case who is punished? The killer? I kinda doubt it. I think it's the rest of us.

If you think so, then you haven't listened to what the prisoners themselves say.  Uniformly, they say that the tedium of prison life -- the day to day monotony of a routine that never changes -- is far, far harder to endure than execution (which, of course, doesn't need to be endured for more than a few minutes).  

I've never understood people who think that prison is a cake-walk.  You realize they can't leave until they die, right?  Death is their only exit.  Why hasten it?

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#82 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 03:11 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Dec 30 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but I think it's best that the pro-death penalty folks and the anti-death penalty folks just agree to disagree. Otherwise, this thread is going to go on endlessly, and neither side is going to convince the other. We'll just be wasting our time.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more.

And with that, I'll just add...seeing the look on Saddam's face as he was at the place of his execution...he may have appeared calm, but unless I'm loosing it (Don't say it DM ;P)...the look on his face was one of fear. And the thought that he was afraid at the end is a very satisifying one.
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#83 Hibblette

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 04:00 PM

To me the Death Penalty is just a means of cutting the cancer from our society.

I also am one to believe that not all murder crimes are punishable by death, in other words it is each individual case.

The case of Saddam Hussein is ... yep Death Penalty.

The multitude of evidence is there.
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#84 MuseZack

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 05:25 PM

As bad a person as Saddam was, there was more than a whiff of Vercingetorix in the whole circus-- the defeated barbarian chieftan being dragged off in chains and executed for the amusement of the victors (and make no mistake, the trial was an American-run show from beginning to end).  It also strikes me as weird that Saddam was executed not for his biggest crimes-- Operation Anfal (the campaign against the Kurds) and the brutal suppression of the Shia rebellion in 1991-- but for the killing of about 150 Shi'ites in reprisal for an assassination attempt against him in 1982.
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#85 Captain Jack

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 06:32 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 29 2006, 07:15 AM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Dec 29 2006, 12:35 AM, said:

View PostJosh, on Dec 28 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

Hanging, huh? Ouch.

A short drop and a sudden stop. ;)

America should send people to take notes.  It doesn't take hundreds of thousands of dollars to take some one out.  Just a strong rope, and some good lumber.

Why waste the rope?  Or the wood?  By your logic, someone could just strangle him.  Or beat him to death.  Right?  Isn't that how America should be doing things?  

Too much effort to strangle him.  America should go back to hangings-public ones.  It's been effective in discouraging folks of being criminals in the past.  And, good news, ding-dong the SOB is dead.  Hope Hell has a nice warm place for him.

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Saddam may be a human being-but he's also vermin.

Nope, just vermin.

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Is the death penalty horrific? Sure it is. That's exactly the point. Let the killer know the fear his/her victims felt. If that makes me a cold s.o.b-fine by me. I'm not out to win popularity contests.

Amen. :)
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#86 Spectacles

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:17 PM

This is disturbing:

http://www.ft.com/cm...00779e2340.html

Quote

One of the witnesses, Judge Munir Haddad, was quoted by CNN as saying that as the noose was being tightened around Mr Hussein’s neck, one of the hangmen shouted out “Long live Moqtada al-Sadr.”

“Moqtada al-Sadr,” said Mr Hussein mockingly, of the radical young cleric Shia who could hardly have been of much consequence to him while he was president, but who now is among the most powerful men in Iraq. According to the report, those were Mr Hussein’s last words.

Sort of an ominous passing of the torch, I'm afraid.
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#87 Spectacles

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:24 PM

And this is interesting. For once, we and the Iranians are on the same page:

http://www.cbsnews.c...D8MBE2I00.shtml

Quote

U.S., Iran Praise Execution of Saddam
U.S. and Iran praise Saddam's execution; some around the world say it could worsen violence

  
LONDON, Dec. 30, 2006
By JENNIFER QUINN Associated Press Writer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP)



(AP) Saddam Hussein's execution found the United States and Iran sharing rare common ground on Saturday, with both countries saying the hanging of the former dictator was in the best interest of Iraq, its people and the region.

However, some warned Saddam's death could worsen the violence and civil strife in Iraq.

State-run television in Iran called the former Iraqi leader an "enforcer of the most horrendous crimes against humanity." Iran fought an eight-year war with Saddam's Iraq in the 1980s.

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While there was little official reaction from the Arab world, many Muslims criticized the timing of the execution just hours before the start of the most important holiday of the Islamic calendar, Eid al-Adha.

Egypt's Foreign Ministry said Iraqi authorities hung Saddam "without considering the Muslims' feelings or respecting the sanctity of this day that represents an occasion for forgiveness and absolution," according to the official news agency, MENA.

In Jordan, a leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood party, Jamil Abu-Bakr, said executing Saddam at the start of the holiday was an attempt "to harm the Muslim nation."

Libya, meanwhile, announced a three-day period of national mourning, lowered its flags to half mast and canceled its Eid celebrations.

In the Palestinian territories, where Saddam was considered a generous patron, his execution was met with sadness. A "house of condolences" _ decorated with Iraqi flags and pictures of Saddam _ was set up in Bethlehem as a place for people to mourn.

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#88 MuseZack

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:43 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Dec 31 2006, 12:17 AM, said:

This is disturbing:

http://www.ft.com/cm...00779e2340.html

Quote

One of the witnesses, Judge Munir Haddad, was quoted by CNN as saying that as the noose was being tightened around Mr Hussein’s neck, one of the hangmen shouted out “Long live Moqtada al-Sadr.”

“Moqtada al-Sadr,” said Mr Hussein mockingly, of the radical young cleric Shia who could hardly have been of much consequence to him while he was president, but who now is among the most powerful men in Iraq. According to the report, those were Mr Hussein’s last words.

Sort of an ominous passing of the torch, I'm afraid.


Wow.  The Sunnis will just love that....
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#89 Spectacles

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 08:40 PM

^ Yep.

Looks like his executioners were Sadrists.

http://www.nytimes.c...artner=homepage

Quote

The room was quiet as everyone began to pray, including Mr. Hussein. “Prayers be upon Mohammed and his holy family.”

Two guards added, “Supporting his son Moktada, Moktada, Moktada.”

Mr. Hussein seemed a bit stunned, swinging his head in their direction.

They were talking about Moktada al-Sadr, the firebrand cleric whose militia is now committing some of the worst violence in the sectarian fighting; he is the son of a revered Shiite cleric, Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, who many believe Mr. Hussein had murdered.

“Moktada?” he spat out, a mix between sarcasm and disbelief.

The national security adviser in Iraq, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, asked him if he had any remorse or fear.

“No,” he said bluntly. “I am a militant and I have no fear for myself. I have spent my life in jihad and fighting aggression. Anyone who takes this route should not be afraid.”

Mr. Rubaie, who was standing shoulder to shoulder with Mr. Hussein, asked him about the murder of the elder Mr. Sadr.

They were standing so close to each other that others could not hear the exchange.

One of the guards, though, became angry. “You have destroyed us,” the masked man yelled. “You have killed us. You have made us live in destitution.”

Mr. Hussein was scornful. “I have saved you from destitution and misery and destroyed your enemies, the Persian and Americans.”

The guard cursed him. “g*d d*mn you.”

Mr. Hussein replied, “g*d d*mn you.”

Two of the witnesses exchanged a quiet joke, saying that they gathered the goal of disbanding the militias had yet to be accomplished.

The deputy prosecutor, Mr. Faroun, berated the guards, saying, “I will not accept any offense directed at him.”

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#90 Anastashia

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 09:33 PM

Yeah talk about unprofessional behavior on their part. Regardless of the circumstances that's not their place.
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#91 Norville

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 11:30 PM

It's unfair that, with this upgrade, when I want to reply and log in to do so, I'm taken to the front page and have to find the thread I wanted to post in all over again, and then click Reply again. Maybe that's my own personal difficulty, because I'm using a lame old browser. Never mind...

The Kurds might've felt some justice in having had the beast handed over to them.

enTranced said:

Like you I have a hard time celebrating death. I used to wince in history class when we saw the old pictures of medevil England with the crowds gathered around a gallows having themselves a little party as a corpse is swinging in the breeze. *sigh*

While part of me says "It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy," another part of me thinks "Hanging or lynching is barbaric, yuck." Oh well, that part of the world celebrates beheading, so perhaps hanging is a small step up from that.

G1223 said:

His being alive is a symbol to some and hammer to hold over the heads of others. So his death brings that threat to an end and maybe helps end the fighting in Iraq.

I should know better than to ask this, but you are aware of the concept of "martyr," right? His being dead could be used as "a symbol to some and hammer to hold over the heads of others." The Shiite sect in Islam adore the memory of a martyr; they still commemorate his death with great passion.

However, since Saddam was humiliated on camera (inspecting the teeth, etc.), he'd been pretty much irrelevant to many. So, will his death change anything? We'll see.

G1223 said:

To act like we must morn his passing or have a moment of silence out of a sense of humanity is wrong.

Bah. I'm not mourning him. He enjoyed his role in life, and made pretty sure that his sons would turn out psychotic. I hardly celebrate him; I just don't celebrate execution all that much, either.

G1223 said:

His death and our being happy about it is like the end of WWII.

Except that I don't see this war being over, so thanks for the somewhat irrelevant comparison.

Considering the various sects of Iraq seem to celebrate by killing each other, being happy about violent death isn't always a wonderful concept.

Spidey said:

America should send people to take notes.

You think that America doesn't know about hanging/lynching? We knew all about it. Ever hear Billie Holliday's song "Strange Fruit"? "Yuck," again. (That method has always given me shivers of disgust. You don't need to agree, of course.)
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#92 BklnScott

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 11:35 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Dec 30 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

As bad a person as Saddam was, there was more than a whiff of Vercingetorix in the whole circus-- the defeated barbarian chieftan being dragged off in chains and executed for the amusement of the victors (and make no mistake, the trial was an American-run show from beginning to end).  It also strikes me as weird that Saddam was executed not for his biggest crimes-- Operation Anfal (the campaign against the Kurds) and the brutal suppression of the Shia rebellion in 1991-- but for the killing of about 150 Shi'ites in reprisal for an assassination attempt against him in 1982.

Ha!  Glad to know I wasn't the only one there... I was flashing back to that when I saw the pic this morning.

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#93 Captain Jack

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 01:04 AM

View PostNorville, on Dec 30 2006, 08:30 PM, said:

Spidey said:

America should send people to take notes.

You think that America doesn't know about hanging/lynching? We knew all about it. Ever hear Billie Holliday's song "Strange Fruit"? "Yuck," again. (That method has always given me shivers of disgust. You don't need to agree, of course.)

I was being cynical.  America doesn't do it often enough, and the last public hanging was in Kentucky quite a long while ago.  There are simpler, and easier ways to knock some dirt-bag off than the gas chamber or the electric chair.  Cheaper too.  Far cheaper.  Hanging is one of them.

I'm glad he was tried by the Iraqi's, and convicted by them.  Now, the sentence was carried out by them.  A good step for their new, but weak government.
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#94 G1223

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 12:56 PM

As has been said time and again no one that I know of on the proside of the penalty is saying kill a single innocent person. But we are saying that when ALL reasonable doudt is exausted that if a person is found guilty of murder that we be willing to move forward with that part of the punishment.


From where I sit I see that the oposition trying to say the state cannot not murder.

The state

Taxes you.
Goes to War.
Drafts people into military service.
Gets some of those folks killed
Create weapons that kill thousand and or millions of people.

And this state can not murder someone? Seems that they are fully able to killing people.  In fact have worked on it to a science.

I see them list the cost for the process of putting some to death.

What is the cost of keeping him in a prison for 40 years.  What is the cost of keeping him in solitary confinement if he is a danger to other human beings. What is the cost if he escapes and kills another person. Who wants to keep paying for a man who murdered 50+ women over 20 years. What if he escapes and adds another woman to that list of victims. Is it death ant 51 victims why 51 why not 23. Why not simply at ONE.


The state hasa job to protect us as a whole from those who seek to do us harm. It has the duty to protect us from wild animals that attack us or to put such an animal down after it has attacked somone. Yet it is not suppose to kill?

If the state fails in those jobs what are we suppose to do? Hope it all works out and that the guy resists arrest and that cops have to kill him?
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#95 BklnScott

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 01:16 PM

View PostG1223, on Dec 31 2006, 12:56 PM, said:

As has been said time and again no one that I know of on the proside of the penalty is saying kill a single innocent person. But we are saying that when ALL reasonable doudt is exausted that if a person is found guilty of murder that we be willing to move forward with that part of the punishment.

Which has meant, and will continue to mean, the execution of innocent people.  


Quote

From where I sit I see that the oposition trying to say the state cannot not murder.

The state

Taxes you.
Goes to War.
Drafts people into military service.
Gets some of those folks killed
Create weapons that kill thousand and or millions of people.
There's quite a difference between the death penalty as applied by the criminal justice system and war.  Two different things.

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And this state can not murder someone? Seems that they are fully able to killing people.  In fact have worked on it to a science.

Well, no, 'cause if we had it down to "a science," innocent people would never end up executed.  

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I see them list the cost for the process of putting some to death.

What is the cost of keeping him in a prison for 40 years.  What is the cost of keeping him in solitary confinement if he is a danger to other human beings. What is the cost if he escapes and kills another person. Who wants to keep paying for a man who murdered 50+ women over 20 years. What if he escapes and adds another woman to that list of victims. Is it death ant 51 victims why 51 why not 23. Why not simply at ONE.
Dude, do the link I provided up-thread.  

Quote

A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

QED.

g said:

The state hasa job to protect us as a whole from those who seek to do us harm.

Thankfully, the state also has the duty to protect us from itself.

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#96 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 01:30 PM

View PostG1223, on Dec 31 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

As has been said time and again no one that I know of on the proside of the penalty is saying kill a single innocent person. But we are saying that when ALL reasonable doudt is exausted that if a person is found guilty of murder that we be willing to move forward with that part of the punishment.

Not quite the case for me.  At least on a theoretical basis (practically is another story because it's so badly administered in this country) if a certain kind of crime is committed, and there is NO doubt of guilt I believe in the death penalty, not as a deterrent, but because society has malignant things that sometimes just need to be removed.

As for Saddam:  I'm disgusted.  Dubbaya decided to make this guy the poster child for terrorism (erm..wasn't it Osama that orchestrated 9-11???).  So now he's the guy the terrorists rally behind thank's to THIS ADMINISTRATIONS'S bogus ad campaign, and then THIS ADMINISTRATION arranges for the guy to become a martyr.  Yipee.  What a SMART move.  (sarcasm).  But aside from that the US media's feeding frenzy is in worse taste than OJ's lates book.  I was watching some news thingie after the execution and the gleam in this female reporter's eyes as she asked the guy in Iraq if there was a video and if it would be released.  I mean EWWWWWWWWW.  I guess there's a reason for the success of slasher films like Saw.  There is a significant portion of this population that enjoys watching other people die horribly and it really is horrible.  Yuck.
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#97 Spectacles

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 04:56 PM

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Spidey: I'm glad he was tried by the Iraqi's, and convicted by them. Now, the sentence was carried out by them. A good step for their new, but weak government.

First, I'm not opposed to the death penalty. Second, I would have felt a whole lot better about Saddam's execution had it not been apparently carried out by Sadrists. It certainly lends credence to those who've argued that his trial wasn't legally sound.

We like to think that our efforts in Iraq produce "freedom and justice." Unfortunately, Iraqi society doesn't seem to be able to further either. We've merely empowered the Shiites, and instead of a state execution, Saddam's hanging looks an awful lot like a lynching, especially considering the comments his executioners made.

But we've helped to make the Shiites and the Iranians happy. Just as we once helped to make Saddam and the Baathists happy when they went to war against Iran.

Iraq has to be one of the biggest no-win scenarios the U.S. has ever been sucked into.
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#98 DWF

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    Dr. Who 1963-89, 1996, 2005-

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 08:52 PM

Now can we have a new word associated with Iraq?

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#99 Vapor Trails

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 09:20 PM

I just saw the cell phone video of Saddam's execution. I won't post the link for obvious reasons.

There was definitely a lot of bloodlust in the room; quite a bit of shouting. Saddam, incredibly, appeared to make some sarcastic remarks, a jeering expression on his face. He said a couple more things, then the floor went out from under him.

The person with the cell phone took pictures of Saddam's body swaying at the end of the rope; there were a number of flashes from cameras of people taking pictures of the corpse. There was also a lot of shouting and frenzied conversation going on during this.

It was a gruesome scene. I'm amazed his head wasn't severed.

Definitely horrific. And yet, I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for him. He reaped what he sowed.

Edited by Digital Man, 31 December 2006 - 09:22 PM.

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#100 D.Rabbit

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 11:40 PM

Live by the sword die by the sword, so to speak.

Saddam could have been assassinated many many times, by any of a number of intelligence agencies. One might ask themselves why he wasn't, to actually get to the root.

I've heard its say that he was a known factor, and to remove him, would only make the intelligence agency go scrambling in an effort to make sure the oil rich country was still under the control of those in control.
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Iraq, Saddam Hussein, Execution in 30 days, 2006

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