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Florida woman sues to keep veil on license

Florida Freedom of Religion

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:45 AM

This is old, but it deserves a thread.

http://www.news.com....55E1702,00.html

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A FLORIDA judge is to rule next week if a Muslim woman must remove her veil for her driver's licence photograph, after both sides presented their closing arguments today in the unusual case.

Citing her religious beliefs, Sultaana Freeman, 35, took the state of Florida to court after she was denied a driver's licence because she refused to be photographed without her "niqab", a veil that leaves only her eyes uncovered.

My first instinct was to be on the state's side.

However, it turns out that they hand out temporary licenses that have no picture, and are good for up to six years.

The state's position is inconsistent.

However, interesting counterpoint: Egypt and other arabic countries require faces on their drivers license's... meaning that if this woman were to drive in Egypt, she'd need to take off the vail.
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#2 MuseZack

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:53 AM

Indeed, the only Muslim country that doesn't require unveiled photos on their drivers' licenses is Saudi Arabia-- where women aren't allowed to drive at all.

Religious freedom is not an unlimited right.  

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#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:56 AM

^

Agreed.

But Florida needs to explain why it's okay for other people to have licenses without pictures as a matter of course. Granted, they're "temporary" (although temporary can mean several years), but all the arguments (identification, what if she gets pulled over?, etc.) but it's still inconsistent.

I also heard-- but haven't verified-- that this woman has been photographed unveiled before.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 Bad Wolf

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:56 AM

If the purpose of a driver's license is that it serves as IDENTIFICATION it seems reasonable to require people to have their picture on it.

If they want a license.

And contrary to some people's belief, there is no legal "right" to drive.  If her religious beliefs are more important than driving, that's her choice.
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#5 Bossy

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 02:28 PM

^Excellent point. Sometimes we have to make such decisions.
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#6 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 03:05 PM

Wait, there's more:

She's a felon as well.
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#7 Rhea

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 01:52 AM

MuseZack, on May 29 2003, 04:57 PM, said:

Indeed, the only Muslim country that doesn't require unveiled photos on their drivers' licenses is Saudi Arabia-- where women aren't allowed to drive at all.

Religious freedom is not an unlimited right. 

Zack
No kidding.

Truth is, she needs to take the veil off and get her picture taken. But I'm scratching my head on why they didn't enforce this when she got the license. It's a no-brainer. There's no point to picture ID with no usable picture. :p :p

Oh, yeah - and what Lil said.  :cool:
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#8 AnneZo

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 02:49 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on May 30 2003, 12:00 AM, said:

And contrary to some people's belief, there is no legal "right" to drive.  If her religious beliefs are more important than driving, that's her choice.
Hey, that was the point I was going to make. :)

If the state wasn't already on record as having been completely inconsistent on this "picture policy", I'd be entirely on their side.  Personally, I think their "no picture" thing should be eliminated.  No picture, no ID of any kind.

#9 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 03:09 AM

Javert Rovinski, on May 30 2003, 12:00 AM, said:

But Florida needs to explain why it's okay for other people to have licenses without pictures as a matter of course. Granted, they're "temporary" (although temporary can mean several years), but all the arguments (identification, what if she gets pulled over?, etc.) but it's still inconsistent.
The permits without pictures are for out of state renewals, like service men and such.
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#10 Kimmer

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 03:48 AM

Driving is a PRIVILEDGE ... not a RIGHT!

She needs to take the dang veil off if she wants a drivers license.

#11 Anastashia

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 04:15 AM

Talkie Toaster, on May 30 2003, 12:13 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on May 30 2003, 12:00 AM, said:

But Florida needs to explain why it's okay for other people to have licenses without pictures as a matter of course. Granted, they're "temporary" (although temporary can mean several years), but all the arguments (identification, what if she gets pulled over?, etc.) but it's still inconsistent.
The permits without pictures are for out of state renewals, like service men and such.
Exactly Talkie, it's done this way because the person is unable, because of military duties, to be present in the state to have a photo taken. Now I suppose the state could require them to send a picture in, but then how is the state to be certain it's the picture of the person who originally was granted the license. A system to verify the picture would just add another layer of bureaucracy to the process. There's a much easier way to verify their identity.

I dealt with a similar situation when I was on active duty. I generally came home during the winter by air so I wouldn't have to deal with driving a long distance in winter weather. My car's inspection was supposed to take place in February, but since the car never went instate during the winter the inspection would expire. I had to notify the state and they would send me a form verifying my status to show if I was stopped. On one of these trips I was stopped, and I had to show my military ID along with the form. The military ID has a picture on it.  I would not be surprised if someone who has a non-picture license is also required to show their military ID when required to show their non-picture license.

EDIT - BTW the reason they are for 'up to six years, i.e. variable in length' is because the holder is required to have the picture taken, or in my case the inspection done, on their first return to the state in question.

Ani

Edited by Anastashia, 31 May 2003 - 04:23 AM.

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#12 Enmar

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 07:17 AM

It they can't drive, perhaps they should be pilots ? :D :wacko:

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Saudi Arabia's first woman pilot hopes all women in the conservative Islamic kingdom will one day have the freedom she now enjoys.

Wearing a scarf, pilot's shirt and trousers, Hanadi Hindi shyly admits she found it difficult to make the transition from a veiled, sheltered life in Saudi Arabia to a much less restrictive routine in Jordan, where she is in training.

http://www.jordantim.../homenews16.htm

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#13 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 07:40 AM

^ Good for her, and good for her father, who shared his dreams and encouragement with her.

I do find it discouraging that people so often confuse wanting to share the same rights as a man with wanting to be a man.

Not the same thing at all.

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#14 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 07:41 AM

Ro-Astarte, on May 30 2003, 01:44 PM, said:

I do find it discouraging that people so often confuse wanting to share the same rights as a man with wanting to be a man.

Not the same thing at all.

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#15 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 06:28 AM

Bottom line, IMO, is she needs to take the viel off. It's time the U.S.A stopped putting itself in jeporady by catering to Muslim religious beliefs. These were the same beliefs that the 9-11 hijackers had.

Now we have a ACLU lawyer crying bloody murder, saying she has a right. I swear, half the time I think the ACLU is a front for Bin Laden and his terrorist network.

If she doesn't like the U.S.A's rules, she's more then welcome to go to Saudi Arabia....Oh wait, they wouldn't allow her to drive anyway.
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#16 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 06:42 AM

The people responsible for 9-11 were extremists.  Blaming an entire religion for their conduct is no better than blaming all Catholics for the Inquisition.

And if the woman were a Shaker I suppose you wouldn't have a problem with it?  Would it be okay to discriminate against one religion and not another.  Her suit is ridiculous but frankly I find your bigoted and narrow minded sounding post to be just as disturbing (or more).

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#17 Julie

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 06:49 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 03:32 PM, said:

Bottom line, IMO, is she needs to take the viel off. It's time the U.S.A stopped putting itself in jeporady by catering to Muslim religious beliefs. These were the same beliefs that the 9-11 hijackers had.

Now we have a ACLU lawyer crying bloody murder, saying she has a right. I swear, half the time I think the ACLU is a front for Bin Laden and his terrorist network.

If she doesn't like the U.S.A's rules, she's more then welcome to go to Saudi Arabia....Oh wait, they wouldn't allow her to drive anyway.
Okay, first of all, the USA doesn't cater to Muslim beliefs.  The reason this case is being heard is because America does try to show some respect for those with religious beliefs.  

Secondly, the belief that women should cover their faces and the belief that killing others will get you into heaven are not quite the same thing.

Thirdly, saying that "if you don't like it, you can leave" is a very un-American attitude.  If you don't like, you should try to improve it-- in this case, by taking it to court.

Finally, are these actually the USA's rules?  I could be wrong, but I believe required photo i.d. is state law, not national.

Edited because of a stupid typo... :blush:

Edited by Julie, 01 June 2003 - 06:51 AM.


#18 Rhea

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 09:40 AM

Julie, on May 31 2003, 12:53 PM, said:

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 03:32 PM, said:

Bottom line, IMO, is she needs to take the viel off. It's time the U.S.A stopped putting itself in jeporady by catering to Muslim religious beliefs. These were the same beliefs that the 9-11 hijackers had.

Now we have a ACLU lawyer crying bloody murder, saying she has a right. I swear, half the time I think the ACLU is a front for Bin Laden and his terrorist network.

If she doesn't like the U.S.A's rules, she's more then welcome to go to Saudi Arabia....Oh wait, they wouldn't allow her to drive anyway.
Okay, first of all, the USA doesn't cater to Muslim beliefs.  The reason this case is being heard is because America does try to show some respect for those with religious beliefs.  

Secondly, the belief that women should cover their faces and the belief that killing others will get you into heaven are not quite the same thing.

Thirdly, saying that "if you don't like it, you can leave" is a very un-American attitude.  If you don't like, you should try to improve it-- in this case, by taking it to court.

Finally, are these actually the USA's rules?  I could be wrong, but I believe required photo i.d. is state law, not national.

Edited because of a stupid typo... :blush:
I agree with what both Lil and Julie said.  I started to get all hot and bothered, then I realized that it's you, LotS, and your usual rhetoric.

Point of information (always nice to have before the carrying-on starts): the woman in question is an American citizen, not an Arab. Not much point in her going back to Saudi Arabia, is there???
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#19 LaughingVulcan

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 09:49 AM

Julie, on May 31 2003, 12:53 PM, said:

Finally, are these actually the USA's rules?  I could be wrong, but I believe required photo i.d. is state law, not national.
Actually, you are not required to possess photo I.D. period.  You may not be able to get a job, rent or buy property, purchase alcohol, cash checks, drive, become a pilot, attend university, etc.  It's still your choice, though.  The law, AFAIK, does require you to identify yourself to a police officer if so asked, but it doesn't say you must have an identification card to do so.  

Yet.
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#20 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 09:52 AM

Yeah.

Unless you want to fly, cross the border, drive, buy alchohol, write a check........

As a practical matter it's a necessity regardless of the law.
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