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Florida woman sues to keep veil on license

Florida Freedom of Religion

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#21 Julie

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:15 AM

LaughingVulcan, on May 31 2003, 06:53 PM, said:

Julie, on May 31 2003, 12:53 PM, said:

Finally, are these actually the USA's rules?  I could be wrong, but I believe required photo i.d. is state law, not national.
Actually, you are not required to possess photo I.D. period.  You may not be able to get a job, rent or buy property, purchase alcohol, cash checks, drive, become a pilot, attend university, etc.  It's still your choice, though.  The law, AFAIK, does require you to identify yourself to a police officer if so asked, but it doesn't say you must have an identification card to do so.  

Yet.
Okay, so I didn't really phrase that right.  What I meant was, driving laws are determined by states, and not all states even require driver's licenses with photos.  

Anyway, I was reading a little about this case, and there's one aspect that really bothers me.

From http://www.courttv.c...under_ctv.html:

Quote

But Florida authorities have geared up to dispute her strict interpretation of the veil, and plan to call an expert witness, Khaled Abou El Fadl, an Islamic law professor at the UCLA school of law, to argue that full-face veiling is an Arabic cultural custom, rather than a practice mandated by Islamic law.

Unless quashed by Judge Janet Thorpe, the showdown over Islamic law could put the court system, an ardently secular unit, in the difficult position of deciding a matter of religious interpretation.

"I'm sure you can get religious scholars to pretty much disagree on anything," said Howard Marks, Freeman's Florida-based lawyer, who is working on her case pro-bono.  It is not the role of a court to be the arbiter of religious scripture."

I completely agree with Mr. Marks on this point.  If the court is interpreting religious scripture and deciding one's religious freedoms based on their interpretations, they're essentially mandating beliefs.  

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if veil-wearing has support in the Quran.  Plenty of religions don't even have a written, definitive basis.

I really hope this is an old article and the judge has already decided what a bad idea this would be.

#22 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:39 AM

Quote

Okay, first of all, the USA doesn't cater to Muslim beliefs. 

Oh? Then what do you call feeding the prisoners in Cuba culturally prepared food?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:42 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 04:43 PM, said:

Quote

Okay, first of all, the USA doesn't cater to Muslim beliefs.

Oh? Then what do you call feeding the prisoners in Cuba culturally prepared food?
Unbelievable.

So if I serve a Mexican Enchiladas I guess I'm catering to the Roman Catholic Church?

What color is the sky in your world, orange?  :p
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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:43 AM

Quote

The people responsible for 9-11 were extremists.  Blaming an entire religion for their conduct is no better than blaming all Catholics for the Inquisition.

And if the woman were a Shaker I suppose you wouldn't have a problem with it?  Would it be okay to discriminate against one religion and not another.  Her suit is ridiculous but frankly I find your bigoted and narrow minded sounding post to be just as disturbing (or more).

Lil

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I did not mean to lump all Musilms together. I, by no means, am saying that all muslims are a threat to the USA.

As for whether she were a Shaker, whatever a Shaker is, would I have a problem with it?

Absolutely!

For all we know it could be Bin Laden under that viel, pretending to be a woman.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#25 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:46 AM

Quote

I agree with what both Lil and Julie said.  I started to get all hot and bothered, then I realized that it's you, LotS, and your usual rhetoric.

Nice to be remembered. :p
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#26 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:49 AM

Quote

Unbelievable.

So if I serve a Mexican Enchiladas I guess I'm catering to the Roman Catholic Church?

What color is the sky in your world, orange?  :p

No, you wouldn't. I'm not saying those prisoners should be fed nothing but pork. However, at the same time, we shouldn't be going out of our way to prepare them food culturally prepared. They should've been fed what any other prisoner would've been fed.

As for the color of the sky....actually, it is orange, with a slight tint of purple....but that could be because the sun is setting  :p
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#27 Rayhana

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:50 AM

I really feel that she needs to remove the veil.  My opinion is that regardless of her religious beliefs, if she chooses to drive in Florida or any other state, she must abide by the rules/laws that state imposes for such a privilage, regardless of her religious belief.  If her religious beliefs are more important, than she doesn't drive.  She must make a choice here.  I don't think she should be catered too.  She lives in the US now and in order to participate in certain activities that those in the US participate in, she must follow the same rules/laws that are in place.  Just at it would be expected of me to follow another countries laws/rules should I decide to live there and participate in the things their citizens do.

#28 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:53 AM

Also, another thing to consider is this:

She's sueing because taking her viel off is against her religion, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it also against Muslim religion for a woman to drive?

I know it is in Saudia Arabia, but not sure if it is in Muslim religion all over.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#29 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 11:19 AM

It is not a Muslim tradition either to wear the veil specifically nor to forbid women to drive.  

It is a cultural thing, not a religious one.

Also, this woman is an American citizen who converted to Islam.

Ro

Edited by Ro-Astarte, 01 June 2003 - 11:20 AM.


#30 Norville

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 01:49 PM

Quote

As for whether she were a Shaker, whatever a Shaker is,

I assume you know how to make a Google search, LOTS? I don't need one for this, so here's your info. The Shakers were a very simple, strict Christian sect (an offshoot of Quakers, if you know who *they* are) -- they're dying out because they didn't breed (sworn to celibacy), only worked by "convincement" (that is, by convincing others to join them), and no one really wants to join their ranks any longer, when they can live in comfort instead. So the only Shakers left are very old. They made excellent, plain furniture -- ever hear of Shaker furniture? They lived by "Put your hands to work and your hearts to God."

So there's your lesson for the day. And now that you know what Lil meant, would your answer remain the same? Actually, I don't know if a Shaker would allow him/herself to be photographed or not -- they certainly wouldn't drive, though. ;)
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#31 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 04:43 PM

Quote

So there's your lesson for the day. And now that you know what Lil meant, would your answer remain the same? Actually, I don't know if a Shaker would allow him/herself to be photographed or not -- they certainly wouldn't drive, though. ;)

Thanks for the info. And, Yes, my answer would be the same. If A shaker woman tried suing, for a license, and refused to be photographed, claiming religion as her reason...my answer would be the same.

She would need to be photographed to have a license issued.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#32 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 04:52 PM

^

Yes but would you be making grossly generalized statements such as "It's time the U.S.A stopped putting itself in jeporady by catering to Shaker religious beliefs."

I doubt it.

Seriously.

Because from everything you've said it's Muslims in particular you seem to have a problem with which brings me back to my initial response to you in this thread.

Lil
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#33 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 06:04 PM

Quote

Yes but would you be making grossly generalized statements such as "It's time the U.S.A stopped putting itself in jeporady by catering to Shaker religious beliefs."

I doubt it.

On that, I'd have to agree with you. I wouldn't have made that comment about catering to Shaker beliefs. Reason being, because no extremist Shakers have launched terrorists attacks.

Quote

Seriously.

Because from everything you've said it's Muslims in particular you seem to have a problem with which brings me back to my initial response to you in this thread.

Lil

Again, on this I'd have to agree with you. I do have a problem with extremist Muslims. I'd also have a problem with extremist Christians, ect. The reason I, and I'll admit it, lump them together, is because you can't tell one from the other.

So, am I prejudiced against Muslims? Probably. I know that if I'm boarding a airline, and there is a Muslim wearing a turban, I'd not take my eyes off them.

That's just the way it is.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#34 Julie

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 07:59 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 07:43 PM, said:

Quote

Okay, first of all, the USA doesn't cater to Muslim beliefs.

Oh? Then what do you call feeding the prisoners in Cuba culturally prepared food?
Come on LotS... I make 4 points against your post, and your only response is about food preparation for prisoners?  

That's what I get for agreeing with Lil and Rhea in a political discussion...

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 07:47 PM, said:

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I did not mean to lump all Musilms together. I, by no means, am saying that all muslims are a threat to the USA.

No, you didn't make yourself clear.  In fact, you said:

Quote

These were the same beliefs that the 9-11 hijackers had.

I'm trying to see how that statement could be considered something other than lumping all Muslims together.

LORD of the SWORD, on May 31 2003, 07:57 PM, said:

Also, another thing to consider is this:

She's sueing because taking her viel off is against her religion, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it also against Muslim religion for a woman to drive?

I know it is in Saudia Arabia, but not sure if it is in Muslim religion all over.
Kind of wish you wouldn't mix up Muslim cultures with the religion like that... Anyway, I'm not an Islam expert by a longshot, however, consider how old the Koran is.  If there's any passage that could be interpreted as forbiding women to drive automobiles, it'd have to be a rather ambigious passage-- too ambigious for many people to inconvience themselves with, and therefore not widespread enough to call part of the Muslim religion.

So... probably just a cultural thing.

#35 Rhea

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:21 AM

Rayhana, on May 31 2003, 04:54 PM, said:

I really feel that she needs to remove the veil.  My opinion is that regardless of her religious beliefs, if she chooses to drive in Florida or any other state, she must abide by the rules/laws that state imposes for such a privilage, regardless of her religious belief.  If her religious beliefs are more important, than she doesn't drive.  She must make a choice here.  I don't think she should be catered too.  She lives in the US now and in order to participate in certain activities that those in the US participate in, she must follow the same rules/laws that are in place.  Just at it would be expected of me to follow another countries laws/rules should I decide to live there and participate in the things their citizens do.
That was my original point. Thank you.
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#36 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:39 AM

No - there are no rules in Islam forbidding women to drive.  Such things are impositions on the religion based on cultural habits.

If there are other meaningful ways of identifying the woman other than removing her veil, then I think there should be some accommodation made.  Yes, driving is a privilege, but freedom of religion is a right, and we are essentially forcing this woman to choose between full participation in society or her religion.  IF there are no other meaningful ways of identifying her - I agree - she's just out of luck.  But I tend to think there are other ways of identifying her.  She could be fingerprinted, for instance.  In other words - if a reasonable accommodation can be made, I think it should be made.

QT

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#37 Rhea

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:49 AM

QT, I don't believe that *is* a reasonable accommodation. Police need an instant method of identification, not prints. How do they fingerprint someone on the highway, for crying out loud!

(And we're arguing about a woman who may very well be trying to get out of having a photo id because she's a convicted felon. Personally, I hope they make her get the photo id. Otherwise, we may have a lot of instant converts to Islan if they find out they don't have to be photographed. :p :p)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#38 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:51 AM

Rhea, on Jun 3 2003, 09:53 AM, said:

QT, I don't believe that *is* a reasonable accommodation. Police need an instant method of identification, not prints. How do they fingerprint someone on the highway, for crying out loud!

(And we're arguing about a woman who may very well be trying to get out of having a photo id because she's a convicted felon. Personally, I hope they make her get the photo id. Otherwise, we may have a lot of instant converts to Islan if they find out they don't have to be photographed. :p :p)
Right - I don't know if that's a reasonable accommodation either.

BUT if it were - well - how nice would it be to have a convicted felon's finger prints?

QT

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#39 Rov Judicata

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:57 AM

If she's a convicted felon, don't 'we' already HAVE her fingerprints?
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#40 rhuhne

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 04:41 AM

There are probably many things that this lady chooses not to do based on her religion.

The law is picture on license.

No picture, no license.

Choose



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