54 replies to this topic

[Broph]

Rhys, on Jan 8 2007, 01:16 PM, said:

Cheile, on Jan 8 2007, 01:23 AM, said:

you do not learn anything important from sports.

Teamwork.  Quick thinking.  Co-ordination.  Physical conditioning.  Dealing with a competitive environment.  All very useful skills.

Not to mention learning to take it well when you lose - that's the other side of good sportsmanship.

[Shoshana]

I think this problem occurred at that school because the ringleader cheerleader's mom was the principal so she and her friends got away with anything they wanted to. It might have happened whether they were cheerleaders or not. And maybe it says something about current culture too.

Back in the Dark Ages when I was in high school we had an amazing amount of cheer type squads - we had Varsity cheerleaders, JV cheerleaders, Freshman cheerleaders. We had a pep squad, a marching pep squad, a freshman pep squad, a dance team, flag twirlers and probably other people who I can't remember. So an amazing number of girls were involved (we had male cheerleaders, but they were called yell leaders!). From what I remember, the cheerleaders weren't particularly stuck up. I was at a pretty big school, so I didn't run across them much. But when I did, they were never mean. And I did know alot of people in the other squads -  and they never said anything about the cheerleaders. And the team that girls really aspired to wasn't even the cheerleading squad, it was the dance team. And I did know alot of the girls on the dance team and can say they weren't "Mean Girls".

We also had alot of athletics: football (this is Texas), baseball, soccer, basketball, swimming, track, golf, tennis, cross country and volleyball. I think that the teams and the cheer squads pulled the school together.

And yes we had activities for people who weren't athletically inclined - the chess team and the other academic teams/clubs whatever that competed. There was a school newspaper and a yearbook. Debate teams, drama club, etc etc.

I don't think it would be fair to shut down cheerleading and school athletics. Saying kids don't learn anything from doing those things is harsh and I don't think true. Not only that, it's the only way some kids get to go to college - on an athletic scholarship.

As far as favoritism goes - it's not just in sports so throwing out sports won't solve the problem. I was on the school newspaper (an editor) and our teacher held a bible study at lunch every day. Once she started the bible study, those people were her favorites. Since I was not about to attend a Christian bible study and refused to go, I wasn't in her good graces anymore and was banned from both the darkroom and from using the school's cameras.

But everyone is different - I never noticed anyone being mean when I was in high school and yet my sister, a year behind me was miserable all through high school because of kids always harassing her.

And no, I wasn't in any cheer squad myself. I thought it was kinda dopey to have to be at school at 6am .... and I wasn't into wearing a uniform.

[FlatlandDan]

Cheerleaders never caused me an ounce of trouble at any of my schools.  I am not really the most sporty person (I was on the curling team;)) but in my second to last year of high school I was actually the school mascot.  I spent a good chunk of time with jocks that year and they were nothing but harmless.  They mostly ignored me.  The most backstabbing, manipulative group I came across was the school student council.  And that was to be expected (future politicians, unite!)

Schools should encourage people to find a place in the world.  So much of my likes and dislikes have been formed because the schools I went to offered a huge choice of classes and out of school activities.  You take away sports and you might very well be taking away something that is the centre of someones world.

[Tricia]

Shoshana, on Jan 8 2007, 10:14 AM, said:

I think this problem occurred at that school because the ringleader cheerleader's mom was the principal so she and her friends got away with anything they wanted to. It might have happened whether they were cheerleaders or not. And maybe it says something about current culture too.

I have to agree that most of the things that this group  of girls did had more to do with the mom being the principal and not having control of her daughter at home let alone at school.

One of the articles I quoted in an earlier post said that the mom tried to punish her daughter and the rest of the Fab Five at school and turned over that duty to other staff....because of her daughter being one of the group.....and the other people decided not to punish them or give them very little punishment.   Like anyone is really going to do much to the boss's kid.  

When I was in school....(back in the Stone Age too) ....either the principal's kids were already grown or they went to another district (by choice).  I did go to school with the district supintendent's daughter but she was nice and no trouble.  But her parents held her to a higher standard of behavior because of who her father was.  

A lot of this situation is just some girls taking advantage of a member of their group's parent's position to push the limits.  All it would have taken to stop all of this was for the mom....who by all reports was aware of a lot of the bad behavior....to have put her foot down at HOME.  Not just on the job.  She did neither so....the girls pushed it as far as they could and then some.

This was not a majority of the cheerleading squad or the whole group doing this.  There are no known complaints against the remaining cheerleaders.  (this looks to have been at least a ten to 12 member group based on pics of the group after the Fab Five were off the squad)

So why call for disbanding the whole squad thus punishing everyone for the actions of the few?

[Vapor Trails]

Frankly, saying that cheerleading and sports are the problem is a red herring. And note the following, Cheile:

1) I was Geekius Maximus™. Captain Four Eyes-me and my Missile-Proof™ glasses.  I couldn't play sports to save my sorry butt.

2) In elementary school, not only did I take a TON of sh!t from boys and girls (the jocks and the bee-otches), I was also physically abused by a teacher who tried to force me into sports.

The only thing I became somewhat proficient in was tennis, and I played on my high school team...second doubles. I wasn't great, but I worked my ass off anyway.

The bottom line isn't cheerleading and sports. The bottom line is-

TEACHING KIDS RESPECT FOR OTHER FOLKS.

Hmm-what a radical concept!  

And sadly, this appears to be exactly that-a radical concept. There should be classes teaching how important it is to respect differences, and what not doing that can cause. Classes like these should be MANDATORY, in lower, middle and high schools.

[Lord of the Sword]

Digital Man, on Jan 8 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

The bottom line isn't cheerleading and sports. The bottom line is-

TEACHING KIDS RESPECT FOR OTHER FOLKS.

Hmm-what a radical concept!  

And sadly, this appears to be exactly that-a radical concept. There should be classes teaching how important it is to respect differences, and what not doing that can cause. Classes like these should be MANDATORY, in lower, middle and high schools.

What Saul said.

[Lord of the Sword]

Cheile, on Jan 7 2007, 02:50 PM, said:

when the harassers were taken to court and charged (i do not remember if it was a civil suit, a criminal suit for the harassment--possibly both were done), someone from the local media stuck her microphone in the cheerleader's face and asked if she was sorry.  the response?  "no, i'm not."

i am trying to search Montel's archives but it is slow going.  and since they repeat shows during the summer it will be harder to find.

Please let us know if you find it, and what happened in that case. Sounds like that cheerleader needs to be behind bars. Or at the very least B*tch slapped! Hard!

[Kosh]

Cheile, on Jan 7 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

Broph, on Jan 7 2007, 05:20 PM, said:

It isn't the cheerleading that causes the problems. Snooty girls will be snooty girls with or without cheerleading. Someone else mentioned that there can be even worse problems with jocks - there can be school spirit without a bunch of steroid-enhanced hormone jockeys, so should we do away with all sports?

cheerleading is part of the problem.  as for non-cheerleading b*tches, they need attitude adjustments.  and that of course falls to their lazy parents who can't or won't teach their daughters how to treat others as they'd like to be treated, which is another subject entirely.

personally school sports are useless, but God forbid some students expand their brains and perhaps join other extracurricular activities like the fine arts--which schools often steal from to fund the stupid sports teams.  nothing aggravates me more.

i remember the big giant fuss when the local high school's football team won some CIF thing.  i was probably the only person in town who didn't give a damn.  the boys of the team that played that game aren't going to be recognized for that anywhere but here.  it's pointless to make such a big fuss over sports.

Football brings money into the school.



Sounds like you have a big problem with cheerleaders in general. There is nothing bad about cheerleading. If it were the sport, then we would have to end all sports ever time a athlete commited a crime. Hundreds of football player commit crimes, but no one is talking about shutting down football.

Should we shut down banks when someone embezzels money.

Quote

Principal Accused of Letting the Girls Go Wild

Some are pointing fingers at the mother of the clique's ringleader, who was also the school's principal.

There's your problem, a bad mother.

Edited by Kosh, 08 January 2007 - 04:49 PM.

[Tricia]

Digital Man, on Jan 8 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

The bottom line isn't cheerleading and sports. The bottom line is-

TEACHING KIDS RESPECT FOR OTHER FOLKS.

Hmm-what a radical concept!  

And sadly, this appears to be exactly that-a radical concept. There should be classes teaching how important it is to respect differences, and what not doing that can cause. Classes like these should be MANDATORY, in lower, middle and high schools.

I agree too....

But I hesitate to say that teaching this concept of respect for others should be the schools job....  

It starts with the parents....and if the school must teach things like respect for others and other issues of morality then no one should complain when their children come home with ideas the parents do not agree with.


Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?I do remember being taught that in kindergarten

I always figured that everything I ever needed to learn about life and how to treat others I learned in Kindergarten


I guess some people never learned or forgot what they were taught.

[Vapor Trails]

trikay, on Jan 8 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

Digital Man, on Jan 8 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

The bottom line isn't cheerleading and sports. The bottom line is-

TEACHING KIDS RESPECT FOR OTHER FOLKS.

Hmm-what a radical concept!  

And sadly, this appears to be exactly that-a radical concept. There should be classes teaching how important it is to respect differences, and what not doing that can cause. Classes like these should be MANDATORY, in lower, middle and high schools.

I agree too....

But I hesitate to say that teaching this concept of respect for others should be the schools job....  

It starts with the parents....and if the school must teach things like respect for others and other issues of morality then no one should complain when their children come home with ideas the parents do not agree with.


Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?I do remember being taught that in kindergarten

I always figured that everything I ever needed to learn about life and how to treat others I learned in Kindergarten


I guess some people never learned or forgot what they were taught.

That's why there are classes like social studies, American history, and world history. And focus should be placed on things such as:

• Slavery in America
  
• The genocide of the American Indian
  
• World Wars I & II, and the extermination of 6 million Jews
  
• The black civil rights movement of the 1950s-1960s

More to the point, these subjects should NOT be discussed as factoids to remember for some test. These subjects should be looked at as dealing with REAL  FLESH AND BLOOD PEOPLE who suffered tremendously, because they were different. With the American Indian, there was land also-but racism was alive and well.

Comparisons should be made to the struggles of folks today-such as the struggles of gays and lesbians, for example. Kids should be made to think and discuss the ramifications of the actions in each instance. They should be made to understand how not respecting differences leads to strife-such as the Los Angeles Riots in the early 1990s.

Emphasis should ESPECIALLY be made to look at news in countries outside the U.S., showing the negative side of not respecting differences. The genocide happening in Darfur is an excellent example. The ethic cleansing in Iraq is another.

Again-these things should NOT be taught as factoids for some exam or SAT. Teach that these events involved REAL PEOPLE. People that could just as easily be these kids.

Edited by Digital Man, 08 January 2007 - 06:19 PM.

[SparkyCola]

Quote

Broph: It isn't the cheerleading that causes the problems. Snooty girls will be snooty girls with or without cheerleading. Someone else mentioned that there can be even worse problems with jocks - there can be school spirit without a bunch of steroid-enhanced hormone jockeys, so should we do away with all sports?

I think it's sad that you seem to think jocks and cheerleaders...ARE sport. We don't have them in the UK but we still have sport. Anyone who denies that the UK has sport is a crazy person.

Cheerleading isn't about sport, as far as I can tell. I mean, I may be wrong, but it seems to me to be about superficial qualities which inevitably lead to potential conflict and seem to have no actual purpose.

It really is depressing how much attention sport gets over the other imho much better subjects just because it's all "competitive" and there's this massive attitude attached to it.

Now I'm all for sports - they keep you healthy and good health in turn helps with more brainular activities, but the way it's carried out...needs some work. I'll repeat what Mark said:

Quote

Mark: Extracurricular activities have their place in teaching kids, Cheile. What should also be taught (that isn't) is moderation in all things. Having your school year revolve around a sport, or sports, isn't a good thing to teach kids, but to completely wipe out competition sports (as you've suggested) is intolerable also. There must be a happy medium.

It's amazing how PE teachers seem to be the only teachers allowed to just unashamedly have favourites. I HATE the attitudes that go along with PE.

Some of you sound like you had some amazing choices in PE - we had no choice. Girls had to do Hockey, Netball, Football (UK), Tennis, and Athletics -  Guys had to do Rugby, Basketball, Tennis, Football and Athletics. I loathed every one of them until in the sixth form we actually had a choice and I could do Table Tennis. I was astonished to find that I actually enjoyed something in PE for once (even if I still sucked at it).

Those who do extra-curricular sports were allowed to treat those who didn't like crap - because no one notices. The PE staff just don't see it. They WERE those people when they were in school, so they can't see it from the Nerd PoV. When I was doing hockey, HATING it to HADES but trying anyway (not that anyone could tell the difference ) and there are people screaming at me "Pass down the line" or something specific and technical, and I don't have a clue what the hell they're on about, it's humiliating.

I just stood there like "wtf?" and then they got angry and saying i'd let the team down and all that crap - I know a lot of my nerdy friends hated it to. I came out of many PE lessons feeling humiliated and angry, and pretty but the PE teachers just don't notice. When it came to Gymnastics I started to outright refuse. Doing something stupidly dangerous and embarrassing in front of others? Not this time. Our school should have had non-competitive sports like Dance or swimming or archery or anything.

I understand why Cheile feels the way she does. Seriously. With cheerleading -having a 'prettiness' club is divisive.

On the other hand - with the increase of obesity I don't think we should ban it outright, in fact I'd be seriously against the idea. It needs to be changed, not scrapped. It needs to get MUCH less attention and status.

Like others have said, it's one of many enriching extra-curricular activities. So much for not ranting

Sparky

[SparkyCola]

DM - that's what PSHE is for. I'm sure you have a USA equivalent. It's not tested in any way, but it is compulsory.

Personal, Social and Health education. Learn about feeling for lumps in certain areas, how to be a good citizen, laws about litter and so on, our personal rights (and therefore the rights of each other), sex education etc. At our school it was also compulsory to watch Schindler's List.

Sparky

[Broph]

SparkyCola, on Jan 8 2007, 11:17 PM, said:

Quote

Broph: It isn't the cheerleading that causes the problems. Snooty girls will be snooty girls with or without cheerleading. Someone else mentioned that there can be even worse problems with jocks - there can be school spirit without a bunch of steroid-enhanced hormone jockeys, so should we do away with all sports?

I think it's sad that you seem to think jocks and cheerleaders...ARE sport. We don't have them in the UK but we still have sport. Anyone who denies that the UK has sport is a crazy person.

I'm not sure if it's a slang thing here, but a "jock" is a person who plays sports. Though usually the "jock" is the athletic type who plays sports well, it's just a generic term. It's like if you said that there would still be "football" without goalies and linesement and whatnot - "jock" just takes the place of a team member of a sport. But there are plenty of sports without cheerleaders, too.

Quote

Cheerleading isn't about sport, as far as I can tell. I mean, I may be wrong, but it seems to me to be about superficial qualities which inevitably lead to potential conflict and seem to have no actual purpose.

Your homework is to watch the movie "Bring it On".

Quote

It really is depressing how much attention sport gets over the other imho much better subjects just because it's all "competitive" and there's this massive attitude attached to it.

Absolutely! You know I actually got a date with a woman once simply because I couldn't tell her who was playing in the SuperBowl (American Football championship) that was being held several days later.

Quote

Some of you sound like you had some amazing choices in PE - we had no choice. Girls had to do Hockey, Netball, Football (UK), Tennis, and Athletics -  Guys had to do Rugby, Basketball, Tennis, Football and Athletics. I loathed every one of them until in the sixth form we actually had a choice and I could do Table Tennis. I was astonished to find that I actually enjoyed something in PE for once (even if I still sucked at it).

I have no idea what sixth form was, but in high school we played various sports. In college I took badminton, volleyball, fencing and one other that I can't recall right now.

Quote

I just stood there like "wtf?" and then they got angry and saying i'd let the team down and all that crap - I know a lot of my nerdy friends hated it to. I came out of many PE lessons feeling humiliated and angry, and pretty but the PE teachers just don't notice. When it came to Gymnastics I started to outright refuse. Doing something stupidly dangerous and embarrassing in front of others? Not this time. Our school should have had non-competitive sports like Dance or swimming or archery or anything.

Choice is good, but it's hard to do with large groups.

[Kosh]

Quote

Slavery in America
The genocide of the American Indian
World Wars I & II, and the extermination of 6 million Jews
The black civil rights movement of the 1950s-1960s

Our school system is sadly lacking in areas that make the usa look bad.

Quote

Cheerleading isn't about sport, as far as I can tell. I mean, I may be wrong, but it seems to me to be about superficial qualities which inevitably lead to potential conflict and seem to have no actual purpose.

It has mutated into a sport. Squads compete now, and cheerleaders almost never lead cheers, like they did when I was in school.

[Shoshana]

Maybe it's a UK / USA thing? Cheering in the US has changed alot in the last 20 years or so. The cheerleaders aren't just looking pretty and doing 'rah rah' yells. Now the best have to combine gymnastics, dance and and attitude and make it look easy. I have photographed gymnastic tournaments and cheer competitions. Those kids work hard. Cheering the way it's done now is absolutely an intense competition - I don't see how it couldn't be considered athletic and a team sport. Cheerleaders are athletic, on teams and go to competitions. It may not be a contact sport, but I think it's every bit as much a sport as gymnastics.


The cheerleaders also have to have personal magnetism and because of that magnetism tend to be popular. But just being pretty and having friends won't make you a cheerleader.

As a side note, in high school (and before) the kids that were able to hold their own in gym class tended not to be the kids that were picked on in school. I'm not sure why, but that's what I noticed growing up.

[Cheile]

Kosh, on Jan 8 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

Football brings money into the school.

not enough, apparently--else schools wouldn't be shutting down their fine arts programs in order to fund the sports teams.

Quote

Sounds like you have a big problem with cheerleaders in general. There is nothing bad about cheerleading.

again you fail to read what i wrote.  look at the thousands of problems cheerleaders cause because of their attitudes.  yes that is largely the fault of their lazy parents, but the cheerleading contributes in the end.

Quote

The bottom line isn't cheerleading and sports. The bottom line is-

TEACHING KIDS RESPECT FOR OTHER FOLKS.

yes DM, as i said, the problem is largely the parents' fault.  but the activities they are in add to the attitude problem.  they think because they are a football player or a cheerleader that they are better than the other kids.  you don't see members of the band or the drama company or the chess club or debate team acting like that on a constant basis.

[Rhys]

Cheile, on Jan 9 2007, 01:03 PM, said:

Kosh, on Jan 8 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

Football brings money into the school.

not enough, apparently--else schools wouldn't be shutting down their fine arts programs in order to fund the sports teams.

Actually, sound business logic is to invest in the areas that make you money, and the money-losing facets of your business only get supported inasmuch as they either support the money-makers, or contribute to possible future money-makers.

Not that "sound business logic" should be the primary driving factor for running a school (or, at least, the "profit" shouldn't necessarily be counted in dollars)...

Rhys

[Tricia]

Digital Man, on Jan 8 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

That's why there are classes like social studies, American history, and world history. And focus should be placed on things such as:

• Slavery in America
  
• The genocide of the American Indian
  
• World Wars I & II, and the extermination of 6 million Jews
  
• The black civil rights movement of the 1950s-1960s

More to the point, these subjects should NOT be discussed as factoids to remember for some test. These subjects should be looked at as dealing with REAL  FLESH AND BLOOD PEOPLE who suffered tremendously, because they were different. With the American Indian, there was land also-but racism was alive and well.

Comparisons should be made to the struggles of folks today-such as the struggles of gays and lesbians, for example. Kids should be made to think and discuss the ramifications of the actions in each instance. They should be made to understand how not respecting differences leads to strife-such as the Los Angeles Riots in the early 1990s.

Emphasis should ESPECIALLY be made to look at news in countries outside the U.S., showing the negative side of not respecting differences. The genocide happening in Darfur is an excellent example. The ethic cleansing in Iraq is another.

Again-these things should NOT be taught as factoids for some exam or SAT. Teach that these events involved REAL PEOPLE. People that could just as easily be these kids.

I've noticed that the schools around my area do not seem to go into teaching history  as early as they used to.  (I only know abot my kids' schools plus the schools where my nieces and nephews attend plus my cousins' children....that's about 8 different school districts here in Texas)  I think that has a lot to do with the way that they seem to "teach to the test" under the No Child Left Behind Act.  

But even with teaching history, how receptive the children are to learning the lessons of the past is up to each individual child.

It's sort of one of those situations where "You can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"  Either they get it or they don't.  

Empathy sometimes is something that you can not  necessarily teach.

Plus a lot depends upon the teacher and their methods.  Do they make their subject come to life or is it just another boring hour to get thru?  I guess I got lucky when I was growing up.  In one small country school I had some amazing teachers who inspired me.  Not every child gets so lucky.

And not every teacher can get thru to every child.

BTW.....cheerleading is considered a sport..ESPN covers the Cheerleading Championships

Edited by trikay, 09 January 2007 - 01:15 PM.

[Bad Wolf]

QueenTiye, on Jan 6 2007, 09:21 PM, said:

I was on the cheerleading squad at my school - or rather, the Booster squad - sort of a "JV" for cheerleaders.  Perhaps because the school was a specialized school for academically gifted kids, the cheerleaders in no way had any sort of "power" over anything.  And - yes, "pretty" was an established criteria, certainly how we saw ourselves, certainly there was a degree of snootishness - but in all, reigned in by the actual limitations of how far that kind of thing can go... and the fact that we actually did have to turn in decent grades, after all.  

It sounds like cheerleading squads in some schools are gaining the same status as football or basketball squads in some schools - high prestige etc.  I don't know if colleges recruit for cheerleaders the way they do for other athletes in competitive sports - but if they do, then that is certainly a heightened prestige for a high school - to produce cheerleaders who go on to cheer for college squads and maybe even the NBA or NFL squads.  And the problems are exactly the same - "jocks" who get away with murder are nothing new... so if now the cheerleaders are in the game, then they are.  I'm loathe to recommend banning cheerleading - one of the few athletic career choices for women - to be banned, any more than I would ban basketball or football or wrestling from school.  (And yes - star chess players also get star treatment, if it seems likely that that will elevate the prestige of the school.)  

The thing that needs to happen is that schools need to remember that first and foremost - they are schools - and neither the "jocks" nor the cheerleaders nor the any other kind of star - is above the fundamental purpose of the school.  I thank entirely the environment I was in for not letting "prettiness" go too much to my head, or my self-esteem to be too much thrown out of wack just because someone else was prettier - there were other measures of success than my looks, and other ways of being accepted than being "in with the in-crowd."  I am therefore a living witness that the problem isn't the activity - but it's place in the overall scheme of things.

From the article:

Quote

Principal Accused of Letting the Girls Go Wild

Some are pointing fingers at the mother of the clique's ringleader, who was also the school's principal.

"This culture developed where the principal's daughter and her friends were above consequences," said attorney Harold Jones, who was hired by the school district to look into complaints about the cheerleaders.

emphasis mine

This is a case where the school was being held hostage by a bad parent...

QT

Yeah but I think that in some ways they LET themselves get held hostage.  Wow.  $75k for the mother/principal.  That's outrageous.  I wonder if she didn't have some kind of dirt on somebody.  And the cheerleaders should be disbanded.

Lil

[Cheile]

Rhys, on Jan 9 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

Actually, sound business logic is to invest in the areas that make you money, and the money-losing facets of your business only get supported inasmuch as they either support the money-makers, or contribute to possible future money-makers.

fine arts makes plenty of money for schools.  if there's thousands in donations coming in for the damn sports teams, they have no business stealing from other areas of the school.  they need to use the donations they are given for what it was given for.