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Gay rights under challenge

LGBT UK Gay rights

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#41 Rhea

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 04:03 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Jan 23 2007, 09:16 AM, said:

View PostChakoteya, on Jan 23 2007, 07:11 AM, said:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ics/6289301.stm

And now the Catholic Church says it will close down it's adoption agencies if this law does not exempt them. They may not place many children at first glance, but they do find homes for a high proportion of the 'difficult to place' children that most average couples do not want.

Well in the US, the government isn't supposed to fund Catholic Schools. Under that logic doesn't it stand to reason that the government should not fund Catholic adoption? I'm just asking, not suggesting an answer. It's not necessarily simple. At what point does the State's interest in avoiding discrimination against a "protected class" (whether it be age, perceived disability, sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity...) override a Church's right to adhere to its dogma. My answer actually is that the government shouldn't tell a church what to do. But it CAN tell a church that it can't have it both ways: hiding behind its precepts on the basis of religious freedom, while at the same time expecting government support (usually financing) without having to follow the rules everybody else who gets that support follows. If they're trying to have it both ways then they're not asking for equal protection, they're asking for preferential treatment. I think there's a difference.

Lil


What Lil said. And it's also completely ironic, because we all know that all straight adoptive parents are perfect people, while all gay adoptive parents are completely unacceptable because of their sin, right? After all, heterosexuals never sin and always make wonderful parents. :wacko:
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#42 Rhea

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 04:05 PM

View PostBroph, on Jan 23 2007, 12:00 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Jan 23 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

View PostChakoteya, on Jan 23 2007, 07:11 AM, said:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ics/6289301.stm

And now the Catholic Church says it will close down it's adoption agencies if this law does not exempt them. They may not place many children at first glance, but they do find homes for a high proportion of the 'difficult to place' children that most average couples do not want.

Well in the US, the government isn't supposed to fund Catholic Schools. Under that logic doesn't it stand to reason that the government should not fund Catholic adoption? I'm just asking, not suggesting an answer. It's not necessarily simple.

I don't think funding is the issue; it's a question of whether or not church policy can be used in adoptions. I don't even know if they required adoptive parents to be Catholic.

Perhaps if they're unable to refrain from discrimination the Church doesn't belong in the adoptive business any more. It's a legitimate question. And it is not nationwide, BTW - Catholic Charities in San Francisco found a way around this dilemma to the satisfaction of all parties. So perhaps some of these agencies lack imagination. ;)

Edited by Rhea, 23 January 2007 - 04:06 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#43 wiggy

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 04:41 PM

How is it possible that in the year 2007 people still care if someone they don't know prefers to make whoopie with someone of their own sex?

And even more dumb, is that people have to be forced by law to treat other people fairly and with respect.  I don't care what "faith" people claim to have, no religion preaches hatred..... people who twist their chosen beliefs preach hatred and intolerance.... prophets taught the exact opposite.

I don't like pikeys and chavs though, I'd put up the no vacancy sign if I saw them coming into my hotel.  :p

#44 Bad Wolf

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 05:26 PM

View Postwiggy, on Jan 23 2007, 01:41 PM, said:

How is it possible that in the year 2007 people still care if someone they don't know prefers to make whoopie with someone of their own sex?

And even more dumb, is that people have to be forced by law to treat other people fairly and with respect.  I don't care what "faith" people claim to have, no religion preaches hatred..... people who twist their chosen beliefs preach hatred and intolerance.... prophets taught the exact opposite.

Well said!
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#45 Chakoteya

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:25 AM

I suppose it could be argued that it is no longer permissable to believe that the preferable combination of parental genders is possibly one male and one female..... just as nature intended?

Is there any evidence as to whether a young boy raised in an all-male household is more likely to inclined to homosexuality, or a girl in an all-female household to lesbianism?
Is there any society anywhere willing to conduct such a long term experiment?
It would be nice to have the evidence that can put any arguments to rest once and for all.
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#46 Godeskian

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:33 AM

You actually think evidence would stop people from arguing about it?

Defy Gravity!


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#47 wiggy

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 08:34 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Jan 24 2007, 12:33 PM, said:

You actually think evidence would stop people from arguing about it?

Exactly... what evidence is there for god? Doesn't stop billions believing it.... and causing harm in God's name.  Some people still believe Elvis is alive.

Edited by wiggy, 24 January 2007 - 08:34 AM.


#48 offworlder

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 10:08 AM

oh cmon ... hell... havnt ya known someone who had to moms or two dads? does that child grow up gay or something?  :rolleyes:  ~ or is it that certain folk in certain circles are afraid that child would not be taught how bad gay is?? intolerance -- reminds me of the song in South Pacific about You Have to be Taught to Hate, You have to be Taught to hate all the folks your relatives hate'
What the hell kind of world will we have if we need coded laws to keep from denying service or calling names or letting your children play with the kid who has two mommies ... doesn't anyone remember Do Unto Others As.... ? just think in your head, 'what if that other person denied me, called me names, how would I feel?'
This should not have to be rocket science ............. so what kind of world will we have?
Laws indeed
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#49 Godeskian

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 05:35 PM

View Postoffworlder, on Jan 24 2007, 03:08 PM, said:

oh cmon ... hell... havnt ya known someone who had to moms or two dads? does that child grow up gay or something?  :rolleyes:  ~ or is it that certain folk in certain circles are afraid that child would not be taught how bad gay is?? intolerance -- reminds me of the song in South Pacific about You Have to be Taught to Hate, You have to be Taught to hate all the folks your relatives hate'
What the hell kind of world will we have if we need coded laws to keep from denying service or calling names or letting your children play with the kid who has two mommies ... doesn't anyone remember Do Unto Others As.... ? just think in your head, 'what if that other person denied me, called me names, how would I feel?'
This should not have to be rocket science ............. so what kind of world will we have?
Laws indeed

The world we'll most likely have is one in which this particular branch of Christianity decides it would rather children languish in the foster care system and remain unadopted, than to give a gay couple a chance to show that they too can be good parents.

Defy Gravity!


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#50 Raina

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 03:42 AM

View PostChakoteya, on Jan 24 2007, 05:25 AM, said:

Is there any evidence as to whether a young boy raised in an all-male household is more likely to inclined to homosexuality, or a girl in an all-female household to lesbianism?
That would be an interesting thing to find out. I always figured that nurture doesn't have a great effect on one's sexuality because homosexual people raised in heterosexual households still end up homosexual. So why wouldn't the reverse be true? Especially since society condemns people for being homosexual

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#51 Chakoteya

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 07:48 AM

^^^ Oh, no. I wasn't thinking of that at all. Nothing wrong in raising your child to be like you. Otherwise all the parents in the world would be in the wrong - religious, atheist, vegetarian, academic, sporting etc etc etc. No, I was thinking that unless we start the study now as to what family structure gives an adopted child the best chance of attaining their full social (and academic) potential) it will be too late. When these youngsters from already broken families reach maturity, we need to be able to look back and say 'well, wasn't that a storm in a tea cup? It makes no difference if you have 1 or 2 parents of whatever gender so long as they are in there for the long-haul and love you.'



Well, anyway, the adoption agencies are going to have to deal with the law of the land as is.
Trying to argue that they had the same right to an exemption as Doctors and Nurses who are morally opposed to abortion - who cannot be compelled to perform the operation against their conscience by an opt-out clause in the Abortion Act - was never really going to fly.

Edited by Chakoteya, 25 January 2007 - 09:00 AM.

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#52 Godeskian

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 03:06 PM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ics/6311097.stm

Quote

Downing Street has said there will be no exemption from anti-discrimination laws for Catholic adoption agencies.

But Tony Blair said they would get 21 months to prepare for change, calling this a "sensible compromise".

Quote

"There is no place in our society for discrimination. That's why I support the right of gay couples to apply to adopt like any other couple.

"And that way there can be no exemptions for faith-based adoption agencies offering public funded services from regulations that prevent discrimination."

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.




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