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Bush's Speech

State of the Union 2007 Bush

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#61 MuseZack

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:28 PM

View PostKosh, on Jan 12 2007, 08:30 PM, said:

^ Damn it, from now on, I'm staring back at you!!

Here ya go, Kosh.  Changed it just for you...
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#62 BklnScott

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 02:47 AM

new york times headline said:

President Bush's order appears to formalize the American effort to contain Iran's ambitions as a new front in the Iraq war.
•gulp•

But remember, it's not escalation.  It's augmentation.

Quote

WASHINGTON, Jan. 12 — A recent series of American raids against Iranians in Iraq was authorized under an order that President Bush decided to issue several months ago to undertake a broad military offensive against Iranian operatives in the country, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday.

“There has been a decision to go after these networks,” Ms. Rice said in an interview with The New York Times in her office on Friday afternoon, before leaving on a trip to the Middle East.

Ms. Rice said Mr. Bush had acted “after a period of time in which we saw increasing activity” among Iranians in Iraq, “and increasing lethality in what they were producing.” She was referring to what American military officials say is evidence that many of the most sophisticated improvised explosive devices, or I.E.D.’s, being used against American troops were made in Iran.

Ms. Rice was vague on the question of when Mr. Bush issued the order, but said his decision grew out of questions that the president and members of his National Security Council raised in the fall.

I really didn't think it would come to this, but isn't it starting to feel like The Decider has made up his mind to provoke a confrontation with Iran?

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#63 Cardie

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 08:25 AM

Having run through so many reasons that we have to be in Iraq, none of which anyone is still buying, we now have the "it was just setting up our ground for containing Iran" gambit.  So what if Congress refuses flatly to authorize sending troops to Iran and the Decider decides to go in anyway?  I think he has the Constitutional power.

It's a scary thought.  We may have every American in uniform on two year tours of the Middle East before we're done with this guy in 2008.

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#64 Spectacles

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 08:46 AM

http://www.washingto...1102219_pf.html

Quote

U.S. Unit Patrolling Baghdad Sees Flaws in Bush Strategy

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 12, 2007; A01

BAGHDAD, Jan. 11 -- A few hours before another mission into the cauldron of Baghdad, Spec. Daniel Caldwell's wife instant-messaged him Thursday morning. President Bush, Kelly wrote, wanted to send more than 20,000 U.S. troops and extend deployments in Iraq. Eight weeks pregnant, she was worried.

Caldwell, a tall, lean 20-year-old from Montesano, Wash., wondered whether he would miss the birth of his child. He walked outside and joined his comrades of Apache Company, 1st Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, Stryker Brigade. They, too, had heard the news.

Moments before he stepped into his squad's Stryker -- a large, bathtub-shaped vehicle encased in a cage -- Caldwell echoed a sentiment shared by many in his squad: "They're kicking a dead horse here. The Iraqi army can't stand up on their own."

Now remember: we're supposed to be taking a back seat and letting the Iraqis lead the "surge." Furthermore, we're going to have our troops imbedded with Iraqi units to serve as advisors and watchdogs (because we can't fully trust them since they've been infiltrated by militia-types).


Quote

The Stryker rolled through the mud of Camp Liberty and made its way to Hurriyah, a mostly Shiite area nestled west of the Tigris River. Apache Company's mission: to search a few houses for weapons caches based on intelligence reports. Caldwell and his soldiers worried about the intelligence they had been given. It had come from an Iraqi army -- or "IA," in U.S. soldier lingo -- officer a week ago. They wondered whether they were being set up for an ambush.

"It's a joke," said Pfc. Drew Merrell, 22, of Jefferson City, Mo., shaking his head and flashing a smile as the Stryker rolled through Baghdad.

"They feed us what they want," said Spec. Josh Lake, 26, of Ventura, Calif., referring to the intelligence. "I guarantee that everyone in the city knows where we're going. Because the IA told them. The only thing they don't know is how big a force we're coming with."

On this morning, 22 U.S. soldiers were in the Stryker convoy along with one Iraqi interpreter, whom the soldiers called Joey. He didn't want his real name used for security reasons.

"Pretty soon the Shiites will be tired of our presence, just like the Sunnis," said Lake, noting that the squad now makes almost daily trips to Hurriyah.

"The general feeling among us is we're not really doing anything here," Caldwell said. "We clear one neighborhood, then another one fires up. It's an ongoing battle. It never ends."

"We're constantly being told that it's not our fight. It is their fight," said Sgt. Jose Reynoso, 24, of Yuma, Ariz., speaking of the Iraqi army. "But that's not the case. Whenever we go and ask them for guys, they almost always say no, and we have to do the job ourselves."

"You do have corruption problems among the ranks," said Sgt. Justin Hill, 24, of Abilene Tex., the squad leader. "I don't know what they can do about that. They have militias inside them. They are pretty much everywhere."

"The intel they give us and the intel we get are two different things," Lake said.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#65 G1223

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 09:04 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Jan 13 2007, 02:47 AM, said:

I really didn't think it would come to this, but isn't it starting to feel like The Decider has made up his mind to provoke a confrontation with Iran?


Maybe this is reacting to the state sponsered terrorists. And their all but in uniform Iranian army soldiers.

When did the Iraq invite these soldiers to enter the country? Wouldn't that make these iranian troops a sort of invasion force. Or does Iraq have a growing tourist trade these days?
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#66 Hibblette

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 10:12 AM

We haven't finished in Afghanistan.  

We are not exactly finished with Iraq.

Now we take on Syria and Iran.

Ladies and Gentleman welcome to the world of the ADHD.

That's Bush's legacy-Attention Deficit Hyper Dysfunction.

He probably still hasn't completed that Mr. Potato Head he started back when he was a youngster.
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#67 Spectacles

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:02 AM

Quote

G: When did the Iraq invite these soldiers to enter the country? Wouldn't that make these iranian troops a sort of invasion force. Or does Iraq have a growing tourist trade these days?

Many of Iraq's political and religious figures, Shiites and Kurds, have close ties to Iran. The Iranians have been supporting the Shiite militias, which also have close ties to Iran's PM, Maliki. So I think it's safe to say the Iranians were indeed invited. The Kurds actually said as much. They said the Iranians in the embassy had diplomatic immunity and we therefore had no business seizing them.

So, if we're going after the Iranians in Iraq, Iraqi sympathies are going to lie more with the Iranians than with us.

Who again are we liberating? Who are our troops fighting and dying for?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#68 Hibblette

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 12:20 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 13 2007, 10:02 AM, said:

Quote

G: When did the Iraq invite these soldiers to enter the country? Wouldn't that make these iranian troops a sort of invasion force. Or does Iraq have a growing tourist trade these days?

Many of Iraq's political and religious figures, Shiites and Kurds, have close ties to Iran. The Iranians have been supporting the Shiite militias, which also have close ties to Iran's PM, Maliki. So I think it's safe to say the Iranians were indeed invited. The Kurds actually said as much. They said the Iranians in the embassy had diplomatic immunity and we therefore had no business seizing them.

So, if we're going after the Iranians in Iraq, Iraqi sympathies are going to lie more with the Iranians than with us.

Who again are we liberating? Who are our troops fighting and dying for?

South Vietnam?

Oh no, wait-had a sixties flashback there. :whistle:
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#69 G1223

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 01:47 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 13 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

Quote

G: When did the Iraq invite these soldiers to enter the country? Wouldn't that make these iranian troops a sort of invasion force. Or does Iraq have a growing tourist trade these days?

Many of Iraq's political and religious figures, Shiites and Kurds, have close ties to Iran. The Iranians have been supporting the Shiite militias, which also have close ties to Iran's PM, Maliki. So I think it's safe to say the Iranians were indeed invited. The Kurds actually said as much. They said the Iranians in the embassy had diplomatic immunity and we therefore had no business seizing them.

So, if we're going after the Iranians in Iraq, Iraqi sympathies are going to lie more with the Iranians than with us.

Who again are we liberating? Who are our troops fighting and dying for?


Invited by whom? What legal government enity said "Hey Iran would you send a few hundred of your soilders over here. We need you to act as a gurillia army against the Americans who helped put us into power. And also continue to support us."

I think such a statement made by a Iraq government offical would have made at least Fox News.

Or was this Hey Saddam Follower I will send advisors and soldiers into your country to help fight the Americans.

Or better yet Hey I will send a troops of my government into fight Americans.  

Would that be an act of war. Which means Iran fired first?
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#70 Hibblette

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 02:12 PM

View PostG1223, on Jan 13 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 13 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

Quote

G: When did the Iraq invite these soldiers to enter the country? Wouldn't that make these iranian troops a sort of invasion force. Or does Iraq have a growing tourist trade these days?

Many of Iraq's political and religious figures, Shiites and Kurds, have close ties to Iran. The Iranians have been supporting the Shiite militias, which also have close ties to Iran's PM, Maliki. So I think it's safe to say the Iranians were indeed invited. The Kurds actually said as much. They said the Iranians in the embassy had diplomatic immunity and we therefore had no business seizing them.

So, if we're going after the Iranians in Iraq, Iraqi sympathies are going to lie more with the Iranians than with us.

Who again are we liberating? Who are our troops fighting and dying for?


Invited by whom? What legal government enity said "Hey Iran would you send a few hundred of your soilders over here. We need you to act as a gurillia army against the Americans who helped put us into power. And also continue to support us."

I think such a statement made by a Iraq government offical would have made at least Fox News.

Or was this Hey Saddam Follower I will send advisors and soldiers into your country to help fight the Americans.

Or better yet Hey I will send a troops of my government into fight Americans.  

Would that be an act of war. Which means Iran fired first?

The point is that they are now so broken up with their religious factions there are those within that country that are calling on help from their brethren.

This is not a shocker.  This is something that happens time and time again throughout the history of this world.  

Again another bungle.

We don't know how to handle this or at least I'm going to say this we, as Americans who have a country strongly based on Democracy/Republic, are not ready to shed the couple of centuries we have progressed and go back to the days of Ghenghis Khan.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#71 G1223

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 02:22 PM

Are you prepared to let people die for that belief?  That it would be better to be civilized and die than a barbarian when you need to be to survive. I mena for some folks civilization is the wood the essence of life. I lookat Civilization as a veneer covering the wood made strong by survival. Survival not only of my generation but the ones that follow.

I see Civilzation as a road not place of being. I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death. Just ask Carthage.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#72 Spectacles

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 02:38 PM

Quote

G: Invited by whom? What legal government enity said "Hey Iran would you send a few hundred of your soilders over here. We need you to act as a gurillia army against the Americans who helped put us into power. And also continue to support us."

I think such a statement made by a Iraq government offical would have made at least Fox News.
Well, I don't know about Fox, but this news was reported widely by several news organizations:

http://www.cnn.com/2...main/index.html

Quote

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi and Iranian authorities slammed the United States on Monday for having arrested several Iranians who were visiting Iraq.

A U.S. official said the Iranians were suspected of involvement in attacks against Iraqi security forces.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Seyyed Mohammad Ali Hosseini warned that "this action is not justifiable by any international rules or regulations and will have unpleasant consequences," Iran's semi-official Mehr news agency reported.

A spokesman for Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said Talabani had invited the Iranians to the country, and the president was "unhappy" about the arrests.



Quote

Or was this Hey Saddam Follower I will send advisors and soldiers into your country to help fight the Americans.

Definitely not. The Iranians aren't allies of the Sunnis. They are, however, allies of the Shiites and they also have close ties to some  Kurds. Once again, the Iranians are helping to train and arm the Shiite militias. The Shiite militias currently help to prop up the government of Iraq, which is primarily comprised of various Shiite factions.

In short, the Iranians are supporting the people we "liberated"--who we're about to cross swords with. The focus has broadened from fighting Sunni Baathists and Al Qaeda types to include fighting the Shiite militias, which are backed by Iran and have an allegiance with Hezbollah--and which operate with the blessings of the current leaders in Iraq.

It's a mess.
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"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#73 Cait

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 04:50 PM

View PostG1223, on Jan 13 2007, 11:22 AM, said:

Are you prepared to let people die for that belief?

No offense G, but you are a hawk that seems perfectly willing to let people die for what you believe

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#74 Hibblette

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 09:01 PM

View PostG1223, on Jan 13 2007, 01:22 PM, said:

Are you prepared to let people die for that belief?  That it would be better to be civilized and die than a barbarian when you need to be to survive. I mena for some folks civilization is the wood the essence of life. I lookat Civilization as a veneer covering the wood made strong by survival. Survival not only of my generation but the ones that follow.

I see Civilzation as a road not place of being. I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death. Just ask Carthage.

Wow!

Obviously you're prepared for people to die for ... power hungry despots.  For their concepts and egotistical every morning I wake up and look in the mirror and wonder how anyone could doubt me moments?  Ahhhhh the divine right of Kings.  

Freedom is what people should be willing to die for.  But only of their own accord.  And that Freedom or for that matter Democracy/Republic should be on their terms, their definition, not something that an outside force dictates to them.

Our Forefathers of these United States of America wanted what was outlined eventually in the Declaration and fought for this and some died for it.  But it was on their terms.  No one outside of the colonies told them what to believe in or want.  They were influenced by many things (the Greeks, the Age of Reason, the Algonquins...) but no one made them take on the torch of Democracy/Republic.

Your very statement there:

Quote

I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death.
Go with the flow.  Don't rock the boat.  So you are of a herding mentality?  

That's cool.  If that's the way you think.

Know this though-there are lots of of us out there that do not think like this.  

The Freedom that our forefathers fought for was based on the concept that all men are created equal.  That there is a respect for each individuals own lifestyle.  Most of the Bill of Rights actually are about all of this.  Freedom of Speech, Religion, search and seizures, trial by jury, protection within your home....all individual freedoms mapped out.

This is the lifestyle of what I believe in and to resort to Barbarism is not fighting for those basic principles.

That is why President Eisenhower said this in his speech when he was leaving office.

Quote

We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#75 Captain Jack

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:18 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 13 2007, 08:02 AM, said:

Who again are we liberating? Who are our troops fighting and dying for?

A very good question.  The answer Americans were given was it is for Freedom.  The truth though, is it's for Bush, and only Bush.  It was to be his legacy.  He thought it would be easy, and it wasn't.  He doesn't like to accept the reality of the situation, and refuses to awknowledge his errors.  The troops are fighting and dying for Nothing.  Our soldiers are being grossly misused.

View PostHibblette, on Jan 13 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

South Vietnam?

Oh no, wait-had a sixties flashback there. :whistle:

It actually IS a second Vietnam war.  We all know how that ended.  Oh, wait, apparently too many don't.  Because if people DID, they would have been a lot more against this whole damn thing.

View PostG1223, on Jan 13 2007, 11:22 AM, said:

Are you prepared to let people die for that belief?  That it would be better to be civilized and die than a barbarian when you need to be to survive. I mean for some folks civilization is the wood the essence of life. I lookat Civilization as a veneer covering the wood made strong by survival. Survival not only of my generation but the ones that follow.

I see Civilzation as a road not place of being. I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death. Just ask Carthage.

I agree.  We should never allow ANYONE with evil schemes to destroy our lives.  However, we are going about it the wrong way.  This war was rushed, and not properly planned and organized.  It isn't a united front.  To win a war like this, you must start from within, then work your way out.  Not spread your resources so thin.

View PostHibblette, on Jan 13 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Jan 13 2007, 01:22 PM, said:

Are you prepared to let people die for that belief?  That it would be better to be civilized and die than a barbarian when you need to be to survive. I mena for some folks civilization is the wood the essence of life. I lookat Civilization as a veneer covering the wood made strong by survival. Survival not only of my generation but the ones that follow.

I see Civilzation as a road not place of being. I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death. Just ask Carthage.

Wow!

Obviously you're prepared for people to die for ... power hungry despots.  For their concepts and egotistical every morning I wake up and look in the mirror and wonder how anyone could doubt me moments?  Ahhhhh the divine right of Kings.  

I think maybe you misunderstand G's thinking.  I think he is thinking more along the lines of the safety on America and the world from b*stards that enjoy doing nothing but bring about death and destruction every day.

Quote

Freedom is what people should be willing to die for.  But only of their own accord.  And that Freedom or for that matter Democracy/Republic should be on their terms, their definition, not something that an outside force dictates to them.
Yep.  Freedom is something people should be willing to FIGHT for as well, not just die for.

Quote

Our Forefathers of these United States of America wanted what was outlined eventually in the Declaration and fought for this and some died for it.  But it was on their terms.  No one outside of the colonies told them what to believe in or want.  They were influenced by many things (the Greeks, the Age of Reason, the Algonquins...) but no one made them take on the torch of Democracy/Republic.

There we go! :cool:  It was also George Washington who believed we should not get involved with the problems of other countries.

Edited by Spidey, 13 January 2007 - 11:22 PM.

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#76 Cardie

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:59 PM

Quote

I see that to protect our way of life that we might need to drop to the barbarian because life beats death.

Can't you see that every Sunni insurgent, desperate not to be dealt by the Shiites what they cheered on Saddam for dishing out to them, could use that as a motto.  If we are only talking about trhe survival of ourselves and our own, then there is no point being an American or fighting for freedom in whichever country we do live in.

G, what if you had your exact same personality and values but were born in Iraq or Iran?  Wouldn't you be urging those wishy-washy liberals who want to have democracy and freedom and to co-exist with other religious sects and the great Satan America to see the light and drop to the barbarian because of the threat these people pose to your survival?

If the choice is between being crushed by a totalitarian regime at home or risk the threat of attacks from abroad, I'll risk my life rather than have to live in a place where it isn't worth living.

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#77 G1223

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 12:19 AM

First I would be dead as I do not follow the mainstream concepts of faith in this country. So transpose that to Iran I would already be dead.

But I would have been working not for the return of the Shah but for the removal of the radical leaders who had already taken my world from me back in the early 80's. I would have either left the country or been drafted to serve in the war.

See I remember the Iran/Iraq war. So staying to serve a theocracy would never have worked for me.  I would be an american who as a Iranian-American would give what ever info I could to my new nation and hope it would be of use.

I am not a kid born in the 1980's but of 1964. I remember a great deal about why we needed to fix Iran decades ago. We at least needed to teach them to leave embassies alone.


We keep this idea up that if we just helped those kids march in the streets that the system would fall down like it did in eastern Europe. Where I see being pushed to far those government just roll out the tanks and troops and kill the kids.

What? We are going to add even more meaning less sanctions on to them? Oh France has to deal less openly to get access. Like it will slow them down.
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#78 Hibblette

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 10:47 AM

WE have no business being over there.

WE don't know what we are doing.

So WE need to remove ourselves from the situation.
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#79 G1223

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 02:38 PM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 14 2007, 10:47 AM, said:

WE have no business being over there.

WE don't know what we are doing.

So WE need to remove ourselves from the situation.


And We need to do it so fast that the place caves in behind us. WE need to do nothing when attacked except make more fuel efficent cars and that will make them stop attacking us.  Gottcha.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#80 SparkyCola

SparkyCola
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Posted 14 January 2007 - 04:02 PM

^So the reason you're over there is to stop them from attacking you?

...well...that's certainly ONE way to go about it...:unsure:

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents



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