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14 more flee from Jimmy Carter's version of the truth

President Jimmy Carter Advisers flee Book Palestine 2007

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#21 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 05:35 PM

View PostKosh, on Jan 12 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

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God what a fool.

Shouldn't be so hard on yourself. We forgive you.
Charming display of civility there.

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Kosh: I know that you know that Carter did more to bring peace to this planet then any president since,
Carter is why North Korea has nuclear weapons.  God bless Jimmy Carter and his methods for getting us world peace.  With peace makers like him out there who needs a good arms dealer.  Carter is a nice guy and I'd love to have him for my neighbor but he views the world through the lenses of an naievity that are so twisted that it never stops amazing me.
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#22 Drew

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 06:22 PM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Jan 12 2007, 04:35 PM, said:

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Kosh: I know that you know that Carter did more to bring peace to this planet then any president since,
Carter is why North Korea has nuclear weapons.  God bless Jimmy Carter and his methods for getting us world peace.  With peace makers like him out there who needs a good arms dealer.  Carter is a nice guy and I'd love to have him for my neighbor but he views the world through the lenses of an naievity that are so twisted that it never stops amazing me.

You know, regarding the Camp David accords, I often wonder if that wasn't all Sadat and Begin's doing, and Carter was just there to pose for photo ops. Clinton brokered a similar mid-east peace during his term and no one seems to make him out to be such an amazing peacemaker the way they do for Carter. I think it seems like such an amazing thing at the time (given the recent conflicts in Israel) but in hindsight perhaps it was just an inevitability.

Edited by Drew, 12 January 2007 - 06:24 PM.

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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 06:53 PM

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CJ: Carter is why North Korea has nuclear weapons. God bless Jimmy Carter and his methods for getting us world peace. With peace makers like him out there who needs a good arms dealer. Carter is a nice guy and I'd love to have him for my neighbor but he views the world through the lenses of an naievity that are so twisted that it never stops amazing me.
To be fair, though, Carter doesn't deserve all the credit for Kim Jong Il's having nukes. Our tough-talkin', non-negotiatin', guns a-blazin' current president certainly helped. Here's the intro of a very long article from May 2004:

http://www.washingto...405.kaplan.html

Quote

How the Bush administration let North Korea get nukes.

By Fred Kaplan

On Oct. 4, 2002, officials from the U.S. State Department flew to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, and confronted Kim Jong-il's foreign ministry with evidence that Kim had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons. To the Americans' surprise, the North Koreans conceded. It was an unsettling revelation, coming just as the Bush administration was gearing up for a confrontation with Iraq. This new threat wasn't imminent; processing uranium is a tedious task; Kim Jong-il was almost certainly years away from grinding enough of the stuff to make an atomic bomb.

But the North Koreans had another route to nuclear weapons--a stash of radioactive fuel rods, taken a decade earlier from its nuclear power plant in Yongbyon. These rods could be processed into plutonium--and, from that, into A-bombs--not in years but in months. Thanks to an agreement brokered by the Clinton administration, the rods were locked in a storage facility under the monitoring of international weapons-inspectors. Common sense dictated that--whatever it did about the centrifuges--the Bush administration should do everything possible to keep the fuel rods locked up.

Unfortunately, common sense was in short supply. After a few shrill diplomatic exchanges over the uranium, Pyongyang upped the ante. The North Koreans expelled the international inspectors, broke the locks on the fuel rods, loaded them onto a truck, and drove them to a nearby reprocessing facility, to be converted into bomb-grade plutonium. The White House stood by and did nothing. Why did George W. Bush--his foreign policy avowedly devoted to stopping "rogue regimes" from acquiring weapons of mass destruction--allow one of the world's most dangerous regimes to acquire the makings of the deadliest WMDs? Given the current mayhem and bloodshed in Iraq, it's hard to imagine a decision more ill-conceived than invading that country unilaterally without a plan for the "post-war" era. But the Bush administration's inept diplomacy toward North Korea might well have graver consequences. President Bush made the case for war in Iraq on the premise that Saddam Hussein might soon have nuclear weapons--which turned out not to be true. Kim Jong-il may have nuclear weapons now; he certainly has enough plutonium to build some, and the reactors to breed more.

Yet Bush has neither threatened war nor pursued diplomacy. He has recently, and halfheartedly, agreed to hold talks; the next round is set for June. But any deal that the United States might cut now to dismantle North Korea's nuclear-weapons program will be harder and costlier than a deal that Bush could have cut 18 months ago, when he first had the chance, before Kim Jong-il got his hands on bomb-grade material and the leverage that goes with it.

The pattern of decision making that led to this debacle--as described to me in recent interviews with key former administration officials who participated in the events--will sound familiar to anyone who has watched Bush and his cabinet in action. It is a pattern of wishful thinking, blinding moral outrage, willful ignorance of foreign cultures, a naive faith in American triumphalism, a contempt for the messy compromises of diplomacy, and a knee-jerk refusal to do anything the way the Clinton administration did it.

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#24 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 08:50 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 12 2007, 06:53 PM, said:

To be fair, though, Carter doesn't deserve all the credit for Kim Jong Il's having nukes. Our tough-talkin', non-negotiatin', guns a-blazin' current president certainly helped. Here's the intro of a very long article from May 2004:
In reality the North Koreans did everything underground for years until they grabbed those fuel rods out of storage.  You don't develop the infrastructure for building nuclear weapons in a few short months.  Trying to pin the North Korea mess all on Bush is nothing more than the Democrats trying to cover up their biggest failure in trying to use appeasement to bribe a dictator.
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#25 G1223

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:04 PM

Fearless leader had Jimmy Carter rollin give him cash and new Nuclear reactor. And NEVER got the bomb making reactor out of Kim's hands. And this was a success in preventing the bomb making?  This Bush's fault because he did not give North Korea even More cash?  Because he did not want to do face to face talks which another word for pointless yammering so that soft hearted people will feel better about what passes for diplomacy.

Meanwhile Fearless Leader works on his bombs and waits to find buyers. And they will show up and Jimmy Carter did nothing to make this not happen. Never was the deal  Give me the bomb making reactor and I give you a new reactor and some money.

It was here is the new reactor and cash and please do not make bombs. Thank You and have a nice day.

That is what Jimmy gave us. The man is menace and he seems to desire taking out America and it's Allies.
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#26 DWF

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:22 PM

And if Truman hadn't fired MacArthur and given back half of Korea we wouldn't be having any problems with North Korea now. It's kind of late to point fingers at who's responsible for what now. :tired:
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#27 QueenTiye

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:34 PM

View PostKosh, on Jan 12 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

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God what a fool.

Shouldn't be so hard on yourself. We forgive you.


Kosh, and everyone, please avoid making personal remarks like this.  I realize the rest of the commentary was intended to mitigate the opening, but... it doesn't quite do so.

Thanks!

QT

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#28 G1223

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:37 PM

View PostDWF, on Jan 12 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

And if Truman hadn't fired MacArthur and given back half of Korea we wouldn't be having any problems with North Korea now. It's kind of late to point fingers at who's responsible for what now. :tired:


The Chinese and North Korean troops did kind of push the issue about giving North Korea back to Noth Korea.

But this happened less tha ten years ago. It effects us today. If the past does not matter. Why are so many here jumping on comment made by Bush in 2000 and 2001?
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#29 DWF

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:43 PM

View PostG1223, on Jan 12 2007, 09:37 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on Jan 12 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

And if Truman hadn't fired MacArthur and given back half of Korea we wouldn't be having any problems with North Korea now. It's kind of late to point fingers at who's responsible for what now. :tired:


The Chinese and North Korean troops did kind of push the issue about giving North Korea back to Noth Korea.

But this happened less tha ten years ago. It effects us today. If the past does not matter. Why are so many here jumping on comment made by Bush in 2000 and 2001?

Then why get on Carter for what happened in 1994 with North Korea? :blink:
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#30 tennyson

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:47 PM

Truman didn't "give back half of Korea." The UN forces in Korea were pushed back by more than a hundred thousand Chinese troops crossing the border and overwhelming them. The North Koreans were all but beaten until the Chinese intervened and made it a completely new war.
Remember Truman and NATO had to balance out the fight in Korea with the possibility that the Soviet Union could widen the war by attacking Western Europe, leaving the understrength allied forces there with no options other than using nuclear weapons or surrender. As it was the Soviets armed, trained and even fought alongside the North Koreans and Chinese, attacking the UN forces that had been sent in response to North Korea's war of aggression.
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#31 tennyson

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:48 PM

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Then why get on Carter for what happened in 1994 with North Korea?

He's saying the past does matter in opposition to what he belives you said, that the past doesn't matter. That was the point of his comment.
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#32 G1223

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:53 PM

And since we can only judge a man by his failures and successes.  Jimmy Carter's actions are worthy of comment when some folks want to raise him to the level of a saint.  The man's action in 94 gave a madman cash and nuclear reactor in exchange for a promise to stop making the bomb. Fearless Leader must have laughed himself silly when Carter got on the plane and left.
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#33 Spectacles

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:54 PM

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CJ: Trying to pin the North Korea mess all on Bush is nothing more than the Democrats trying to cover up their biggest failure in trying to use appeasement to bribe a dictator.

Personally, I'm not trying to pin it all on Bush, just pointing out that NK went nuclear on his watch. But neither is it reasonable to attempt to pin it all on Carter and Clinton. Had the Republican Congress not reneged on upholding our end of the Framework Agreement in the late 90's, things might not have gotten to this point. And although Bush's tough talk has been welcome by those who are naive to think that if we just swagger enough, we'll win any dispute, it should be pretty evident by now that shooting off our mouths and threatening force doesn't necessarily guarantee victory. Again, I'm all for being tough as long it's combined with being smart, but being tough and stupid is a recipe for disaster. See Iraq--and a nuclear armed North Korea and a soon-to-be nuclear armed Iran. But it's true: no one can call Bush an appeaser. What good he's accomplished with his tough guy act is kind of hard to see...but, no, he's no appeaser.
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#34 G1223

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 09:58 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jan 12 2007, 09:54 PM, said:

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CJ: Trying to pin the North Korea mess all on Bush is nothing more than the Democrats trying to cover up their biggest failure in trying to use appeasement to bribe a dictator.

Personally, I'm not trying to pin it all on Bush, just pointing out that NK went nuclear on his watch. But neither is it reasonable to attempt to pin it all on Carter and Clinton. Had the Republican Congress not reneged on upholding our end of the Framework Agreement in the late 90's, things might not have gotten to this point. And although Bush's tough talk has been welcome by those who are naive to think that if we just swagger enough, we'll win any dispute, it should be pretty evident by now that shooting off our mouths and threatening force doesn't necessarily guarantee victory. Again, I'm all for being tough as long it's combined with being smart, but being tough and stupid is a recipe for disaster. See Iraq--and a nuclear armed North Korea and a soon-to-be nuclear armed Iran. But it's true: no one can call Bush an appeaser. What good he's accomplished with his tough guy act is kind of hard to see...but, no, he's no appeaser.


Excuse me are we trying to find a way of saying that North Korea is not a evil place. A place that dehumanizes it's subjects. That calling it an axis of Evil is actually a understatment. The deal was we give him Cash and new shiney reactor. In exchange he promises to not make the bomb. No we could not have a deal where we get the bomb making reactor. And we were suppose to think this deal was anything but propaganda.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#35 Spectacles

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:06 PM

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G: Excuse me are we trying to find a way of saying that North Korea is not a evil place. A place that dehumanizes it's subjects.

If by "we" you mean me, no.

Kim Jong Il is a nut.
Now he's a nuclear-armed nut. You seem to be arguing that he is so solely because of Carter and Clinton. I'm saying that Bush isn't absolved of responsibility in the matter.
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#36 DWF

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:07 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jan 12 2007, 09:47 PM, said:

Truman didn't "give back half of Korea." The UN forces in Korea were pushed back by more than a hundred thousand Chinese troops crossing the border and overwhelming them. The North Koreans were all but beaten until the Chinese intervened and made it a completely new war.
Remember Truman and NATO had to balance out the fight in Korea with the possibility that the Soviet Union could widen the war by attacking Western Europe, leaving the understrength allied forces there with no options other than using nuclear weapons or surrender. As it was the Soviets armed, trained and even fought alongside the North Koreans and Chinese, attacking the UN forces that had been sent in response to North Korea's war of aggression.

We had all of Korea and we gave it back to them and had to fight a police action for the next three years, kind of like what's going on in Iraq right now.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Korean_War

Quote

In late November, the Chinese struck in the west, along the Chongchon River, and completely overran several ROK divisions and landed a heavy blow to the flank of the remaining UN forces. The resulting withdrawal of the U.S. Eighth Army was the longest retreat of any American military unit in history.

Quote

Historian and Korean War veteran Bevin Alexander had this to say about Chinese tactics in his book How Wars Are Won:

The Chinese had no air power and were armed only with rifles, machineguns, hand grenades, and mortars. Against the much more heavily armed Americans, they adapted a technique they had used against the Nationalists in the Chinese civil war of 194649. The Chinese generally attacked at night and tried to close in on a small troop position generally a platoon and then attacked it with local superiority in numbers. The usual method was to infiltrate small units, from a platoon of fifty men to a company of 200, split into separate detachments. While one team cut off the escape route of the Americans, the others struck both the front and the flanks in concerted assaults. The attacks continued on all sides until the defenders were destroyed or forced to withdraw. The Chinese then crept forward to the open flank of the next platoon position, and repeated the tactics.
Historian Bruce Cumings noted that when Chinese soldiers and officers saw how Americans fought the war, they were surprised by how gratuitously the Americans would resort to what the Chinese considered to be excessive and unnecessary force. One Chinese soldier stated that if the Americans encountered a single sniper hiding in a village or house, they would invariably call in massive artillery and air attacks, destroying the entire village and killing everyone in it. He asked, "Why do they do this instead of simply sending in soldiers to kill the sniper?" American superiority in military hardware had profound consequences for the Korean people on the peninsula as well as the soldiers fighting the war.

The stalemate meant making a country of North Korea again which in my mind means we gave it back to them.
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#37 DWF

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:10 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jan 12 2007, 09:48 PM, said:

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Then why get on Carter for what happened in 1994 with North Korea?

He's saying the past does matter in opposition to what he belives you said, that the past doesn't matter. That was the point of his comment.

Yes it only seems to matter when Carter is being condemned not for any of his good works, let alone the peace and lack of inflation we had while he was in office.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#38 Heropa

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:52 PM

I'd like to pointout the sudden silence.  :D

Thankyou.

... No, this is the problem with political sides. Has anyone stepped up and said they stand corrected without somebody else mentioning the idea?
  G, you're so ready to heap all the blame on Carter and declare him a bad President. What he did for world peace was start what others failed to continue. Wasn't the information used to refine the uranium illegally sold to Korea? That's blamed on a big slip in Russian oversight. And we were supposed to negotiate the removal of the rods under the first G. Bush. How'd that fall appart? Oh, that's right! Kim's a lieing loony! The situation isn't even America's "fault". How could it be Carter's?
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#39 G1223

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:52 PM

LOL Lack of Inflation. OMG it was the inflation and nose bleed high interest rates that doomed Jimmy Carter's reign. Hell that was one of Regan's selling points. His comment was in 1980 "Do you feel better off now than you did four years ago."


I remember seeing rates that nearly topped 20% as the rates people were paying. Regan got that rate to drop but OMG Carter was a disaster.  But he fouled up in talking with the people who seized our embassy. It took the credible threat of force which Jimmy could not or would not show to ensure the safe return of our people held hostage for over a year.

He did a nice job of Giving Saddat and Begin room to talk. But that was all he did.  His handling of 3 mile island. There he did a good job. He had a great deal of knowledge that let him help come up with a plan to fix the problem.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#40 Heropa

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:04 PM

Getting back on the subject.

Carter is pointing out the same problems that are talked about on both sides of the Palestinian line. This is more of an insider's view with his admirable desire for a fair treatment of others. Most of those complaining have their own agendas or have been told to complain by those they follow.

Edited by Heropa, 12 January 2007 - 11:07 PM.

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