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State of the Union Thread

2007 State of the Union Bush

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#41 Kosh

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 12:34 PM

It would take two and a half of me to get to 60,000.00.

When you are on the bottom looking up, 60,000 is beyond middle class. The only people I know makingn that much are top people here at the office. Miners may make that much, but I'd have to be starving before I would enter the mines to work.
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#42 BklnScott

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 12:39 PM

By contrast, where I live (NYC), $60,000 is *barely* enough to qualify for "middle class," and certainly won't support a household of 4.  A *crappy* 2 bedroom apartment in Manhattan will cost you between 600-800K (and studios routinely rent for $2000/month).  (Edited after a qucik check of some real estate sites -- and also becuase I'm hearing rumors my apt is gonna go condo...)

At my office, the admins make between 40-60K.  

Meanwhile, a good friend who lives near Asheville, NC, makes about 28K -- and he's quite comfortable.  He owns a 2 bedroom house with a couple of acres of land, he travels, buys gadgets, etc.

Edited by ScottEVill, 24 January 2007 - 08:11 PM.

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#43 Hibblette

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 12:42 PM

Well I have to say I feel like I'm among good people. :cool:

And I'm with Zack for sure on this.  Webb really was bringing something to the table that the Dems have been missing for some time.  

Certainly I am for all the social inclusion-but sometimes the average Joe is forgotten in that quest.  When in reality the average Joe is why social inclusion is even something that we give thought for.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#44 Kosh

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 12:58 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Jan 24 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

By contrast, where I live (NYC), $60,000 is *barely* enough to qualify for "middle class," and certainly won't support a household of 4.  A 2 bedroom apartment will cost you between 500-700K (and studios routinely rent for $2000/month).

At my office, the admins make between 40-60K.  

Meanwhile, a good friend who lives near Asheville, NC, makes about 28K -- and he's quite comfortable.  He owns a 2 bedroom house with a couple of acres of land, he travels, buys gadgets, etc.


I make 26,000, and am not hungry. I have an inheirted place to live. I'm about to have to buy a car, and that will put a major dent into my "spend like crazy" days that I've been enjoying. I'm glad I got the audio equipment before the car went haywire.



I said only top people, but it's accually better here then that, now that I think about it. All of the agency heads, air, Water/Waste, Enforcement and a few more, are making that money or better, and those above them are making more. That's only about 4 or 5 people, but they are in the 100,000 dollar range. Most of the Lawyers would be makingnthat money as well.
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#45 Hibblette

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:16 PM

I'm not starving but who I think of is those that are living on minimum wage.

Geez-those of us that are in $20,000 to $30,000 range are considered poor but look at the ones that are making minimum wage and they are not even making $10,000.00.  They're not all teens and immigrants either.  

I suppose my point about the $60,000.00 was that shows just how the numbers just really doesn't tell the whole story.  This is were our leaders (I'm including Dems) have let us down in the past.  They forget that the masses actually are individuals-with their own individual story.

It's actually very frustrating that we are nothing more then statistics.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#46 GiGi

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:17 PM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jan 23 2007, 08:34 PM, said:

Note that it's a figure for a *household*. To run with your teaching example, if one person is earning that $50,000 salary, the other person only has to be pulling in ten grand a year to reach the median of 60,000. If you have two very good teaching salaries, you're in six figure territory! And that's for a job that has three months vacation and has better hours than 9-5.

Granted, that money doesn't go very far in the Bay Area, because of the crushing cost of government regulation, local taxation of all sorts, and cost of living. That's not an argument against the median income. It's an argument for leaving the bay area as quickly as humanly possible.
I guess you don't know any teachers if you think the hours are 9-5.  At least not high school teachers.  My neighbor is one and he has tons of stuff to do at home, grading lesson planning, having to chaperone several weekend school events per semester.  Plus staff meetings, having to take extra courses, etc, etc etc.  He didn't get three months off really, the staff starts school early plus he was planning for the next year during the summer break.  $50,000 is high for a teacher, he is getting it as a math teacher in an affluent area, that is not usual.

I agree about the Bay area, the Dot Com build up and then burst has effected us all and not in a good way.  But after living here for almost 30 years it is hard to think of re-building my life somewhere else.

*Oh PS about your example, what if only one person works because they want to have one person raise the kids?  That still happens sometimes.

Edited by GiGi, 24 January 2007 - 01:25 PM.

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#47 Rhea

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:40 PM

I lasted for about three sentences...we both said "GAH!" and left the room. I scanned the text after.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#48 Rov Judicata

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:45 PM

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Chipper: Frankly, I'm more disturbed that even with AI as a lead-in, the amount of people watching wasn't that high.
I’m not disturbed by that. There’s really not much rational reason to watch. Listening to a speech is one of the worst ways to get information, particularly when it’s merely a verbatim recitation.

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Hibblette: There's a whole lot of us that are not at the $60,000.00 mark. And I have a good job.

50% of family households are above it, fifty are below. Most of those 60,000 income houses are, as noted, two income-earners.

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Hibblette: You see-I'm poor. Earning $60,000.00 a year is not being poor and they [the poor]are who need the healthcare relief.

You can take 25% right off the top, due to federal taxaction (income and payroll). Boom, you’re down to $45,000. If you live in a high state tax like New York, you can write them a check for another 7% of your income. Throw in sales tax, and it’s another point or two of income. Throw in the stealth taxes of government regulation and mandates (think things like minimum wage) , and it’s at least another point or two. That $60,000 household is now down to $36,000. A studio apartment in New York is going to be $2,000 a month, at least. That leaves $12,000 for everything else, including healthcare and the money black hole that is offspring.  It’s perfectly reasonable to say somebody making $60,000 a year needs healthcare relief.

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Gigi: I guess you don't know any teachers if you think the hours are 9-5. At least not high school teachers. My neighbor is one and he has tons of stuff to do at home, grading lesson planning, having to chaperone several weekend school events per semester. Plus staff meetings, having to take extra courses, etc, etc etc. He didn't get three months off really, the staff starts school early plus he was planning for the next year during the summer break. $50,000 is high for a teacher, he is getting it as a math teacher in an affluent area, that is not usual.
I’ve always wondered about that mysterious ‘planning’. It’s not like high school math changes that much from year to year. As for the rest, I said the hours were better than 9-5. When you factor in the three months or so off (or at least two and a half), there’s probably fewer hours worked than somebody who has a 9-5 job (most of which are no longer 9-5!).

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I agree about the Bay area, the Dot Com build up and then burst has effected us all and not in a good way. But after living here for almost 30 years it is hard to think of re-building my life somewhere else.

*Oh PS about your example, what if only one person works because they want to have one person raise the kids? That still happens sometimes.


Yeah, true. No doubt, there’s a combination of factors. My only assertion is that the median income for a family household is $60,000 or so, which is doubtless a combination of dual and single income earning households. Given that the data comes straight from the census , I’m inclined to require more than anecdotal evidence to dismiss it.

[And as I alluded to earlier, one of the best things a person or couple can do for their financial health is to *not have kids*. It’s rather perverse that the government subsidizes children in a world that’s dangerously overpopulated.].
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#49 Hibblette

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:55 PM

I don't live in NYC.

The thing is there are studies and reports all over the place about how more women are living alone and there are more single households out there.  So...the Republicans solution for me is to go find me a man...is that it?  The healthcare issues is about the poor.  Bottom line of $35,000.00 is still pretty good compared to those that make minimum wage.

I think our leaders need to get a little more perspective about the masses.

Or to quote Elliot in ET-This is reality Greg.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#50 Rhea

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:27 PM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jan 23 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

Clearly, we need a national initiative to turn illegal immigrants into doctors and/or oil.

:howling:  :howling:  :howling:

::Rhea gives Rovvie a smooch::
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#51 Rhea

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:32 PM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 24 2007, 10:55 AM, said:

<br />I don't live in NYC.<br /><br />The thing is there are studies and reports all over the place about how more women are living alone and there are more single households out there.  So...the Republicans solution for me is to go find me a man...is that it?  The healthcare issues is about the poor.  Bottom line of $35,000.00 is still pretty good compared to those that make minimum wage.<br /><br />I think our leaders need to get a little more perspective about the masses.<br /><br />Or to quote Elliot in <b>ET</b>-This is reality Greg.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

No sh*t, Sherlock. I saw somewhere recently that statistically, most women of my generation are single!! Nobody offers any incentives or tax breaks or any other help to single people - and single women still make less than men in comparable jobs a lot of the time. Apparently if you don't reproduce you don't count.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#52 Palisades

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:44 PM

^ Actually, the idea behind the child tax credit is that children place a strain on a family's finances, and a progressive tax system taxes people according to their ability to bear the burden.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#53 Rov Judicata

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:25 PM

View PostRhea, on Jan 24 2007, 01:27 PM, said:

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jan 23 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

Clearly, we need a national initiative to turn illegal immigrants into doctors and/or oil.

:howling:  :howling:  :howling:

::Rhea gives Rovvie a smooch::


*smooch*.

View PostSolar Wind, on Jan 24 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

^ Actually, the idea behind the child tax credit is that children place a strain on a family's finances, and a progressive tax system taxes people according to their ability to bear the burden.

Everything a family purchases puts a strain on its finances. By that logic, there should also be a deduction for a new car or plasma TV.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#54 MuseZack

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:28 PM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jan 24 2007, 08:25 PM, said:

View PostSolar Wind, on Jan 24 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

^ Actually, the idea behind the child tax credit is that children place a strain on a family's finances, and a progressive tax system taxes people according to their ability to bear the burden.

Everything a family purchases puts a strain on its finances. By that logic, there should also be a deduction for a new car or plasma TV.


Not a fair comparison.  In economic terms, children are considered a positive externality.  Parents get hit with most of the costs, but they're raising the next generation of taxpayers that will hopefully benefit everyone, so it's only fair that the tax system cut them some breaks in exchange for that service.
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#55 Palisades

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:41 PM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jan 24 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

View PostSolar Wind, on Jan 24 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

^ Actually, the idea behind the child tax credit is that children place a strain on a family's finances, and a progressive tax system taxes people according to their ability to bear the burden.

Everything a family purchases puts a strain on its finances. By that logic, there should also be a deduction for a new car or plasma TV.

Children cost lots of money each year and are hard to get rid of until they turn 18. The costs of buying gas and maintaining my economy car pale in comparison to what I'd be paying out if I had a child.

You can argue that the justication used by supporters of the child tax credit should apply to other items as well. My main point was that the existence of the child tax credit doesn't mean the federal government thinks that "if you don't reproduce you don't count."

Edited by Solar Wind, 24 January 2007 - 04:20 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#56 MuseZack

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:18 PM

BTW, a brief aside.  In the SOTU, did anyone else do a doubletake when Bush started talking about Baby Einstein videos (!) and wonder if they had accidentally changed the channel to Talladega Nights, where a very Bush-like Will Farrell said his prayer to "dear Lord Baby Jesus, lying there in your...your little ghost manger, lookin' at your Baby Einstein developmental videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors..."?

It was a truly surreal moment.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#57 Palisades

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:22 PM

^ Yeah, I did think the channel had flipped to something else when I started hearing someone talking about Baby Einstein. Then, I realized that it was still Bush doing the talking. I was definitely thrown for a loop.

Edited by Solar Wind, 24 January 2007 - 04:23 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#58 Hibblette

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:25 PM

How funny Zack.

I think some of her success could be attributed to the better economy that existed back when she started out, which was like 1997.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#59 Lin731

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 05:09 PM

I never watch the SOTU address, I rarely watch any speeches because it's all just lip service. We've gotten lip service for years now but what Bush says and what he does are polar opposites. I'm tired of hearing about our need to conserve energy and end our reliance on foreign oil from this President that encouraged people to buy gas guzzlers, lowered pollution standards, thumbed his nose at global warming etc...He's talked about all that before and done jack and sh*t to back it up. This country should have been working aggressively for over 30 years to end our reliance on foreign oil but we haven't because big oil is big money for too may politicians.
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#60 The Tyrant

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 05:23 PM

This speech was a big fat 'Well, DUH!!!' ...he said absolutely nothing we didn't already know, and acted like it was some divine revelation or something. The one thing that was missing and really, deperately needed was someone to yell, at the end: "We know this, dumb*$$, so do something about it already!"
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