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Eric Rudolph Captured

Abortion Eric Rudolph Domestic Terrorism

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 04:14 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit late; sue me.

http://www.foxnews.c...3,88259,00.html
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#2 Cardie

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 07:01 AM

Golly, you mean FOX News didn't use the headline "N.C. Police Arrest Pro-Life Activist?"  :p

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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#3 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 08:55 AM

Cardie, on May 31 2003, 03:05 PM, said:

Golly, you mean FOX News didn't use the headline "N.C. Police Arrest Pro-Life Activist?"  :p

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Are you suggesting there might be some MEDIA BIAS involved?  :eek:

/tongue in cheek

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Edited by Ro-Astarte, 01 June 2003 - 08:59 AM.


#4 Kimmer

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 09:14 AM

KUDDO's to "21 year-old Sheriff Deputy Jeffery Postdale"!

Javert Rovinski, on May 31 2003, 10:18 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm a bit late; sue me.

Why? Are you wealthy and desire to share your wealth?  ;)

#5 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:57 AM

Here's a question: Should the arresting officer get the One Million dollar reward for Rudolph's capture?

I'm sort of torn on that. I mean, on one hand, it's his job to do things like this. Should we reward him for doing something we already pay him to do? Second: He didn't even know it was Rudolph. Another officer, his Boss, recognized that it was Rudolph.

However, I don't think the reward poster excluded Law Enforcement personel.

Guess we'll see if he gets it or not.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#6 Kimmer

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 12:21 PM

^ My guess -- and it's only that -- is that he will not be able to claim it. The arrest was performed in the line of duty, and peace officers are generally bound by a set of standards and ethics that prohibit them from claiming rewards under those circumstances.

The second part of your question ... For fun, let's say he is eligible to claim it. The reward would be his and his alone. Sheriff Deputy Jeffery Postdale made the arrest, it was legit, and the fingerprint trace would have told him who he really had in custody. The other officer id'ing the man only hastened the process.

We shall see what the laws and standards are in NC.

#7 MuseZack

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 05:56 AM

What's most disturbing to me is the amount of support enjoyed by someone who can only be described as a domestic terrorist.  Remember the horror and outrage at the TV footage of Muslims celebrating the Sept. 11th attacks?  What are we to make of these people?

MURPHY, N.C., May 31 ? Crystal Davis doesn't quite side with Eric Rudolph, but she sympathizes with him.

"He's a Christian and I'm a Christian and he dedicated his life to fighting abortion," said Mrs. Davis, 25, mother of four. "Those are our values. And I don't see what he did as a terrorist act."

Her feelings were echoed, person after person, in this sawmill and cow-pasture hamlet today, where the Appalachian foothills rise above town in every direction. Mr. Rudolph, who is accused of the 1996 Olympic bombing and attacks on abortion clinics, was arrested in Murphy this morning after a five-year manhunt. Federal authorities said that for years he had been living off the land around here, a conservative, woodsy corner of the rural South.

Some people in Murphy expressed a certain amount of respect for the wily survivalist. Others vented a disdain for the federal agents who promised a quick capture.

"We thought it was kind of funny when the feds rolled in here all arrogant," said William Hoyt, an unemployed crafter of birdhouses. "They kept saying they didn't need our help. It put a lot of people off. Nobody around here condones murder, but I think a lot of people weren't sure which side to be on."

As the search intensified over the years, locals cashed in by printing up T-shirts that said "Run, Rudolph, Run," and "Eric Rudolph ? Hide and Seek Champion of the World." Many people here had an uneasy relationship with F.B.I. agents, who often said they suspected the local population was providing the fugitive with food and shelter.

"If he came to my door, I'd give him food," Mrs. Davis said. "That's just how we are with strangers."
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#8 Rov Judicata

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 06:09 AM

Zack-- Where'd that article come from...?

Anyway, yeah, that's extremely scary... I honestly don't know what we can or should do about it though.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#9 MuseZack

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 06:18 AM

Today's New York Times.

I don't know what there is to do about it.  But it's something we should all bear in mind before we go off accusing other countries of being diseased or pathological when chunks of their populace seem to be defending or justifying terrorism.

Zack
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we will have discovered fire."
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#10 Bad Wolf

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 07:23 AM

It's a lot easier to cast aspersions when it involves extremists using a religion other than ones' own to justify terrorism. That's just human nature.
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#11 Cardie

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 08:18 AM

Appalachian people stick together pretty tightly and are inherently suspicious of outsiders, especially if they work for the Feds. Rudolph's prejudices were carried to a pathological extreme, but I'm sure most people in Murphy oppose abortion and harbor aversions to homosexuality, non-Christians and non-whites.

From growing up in West Virginia--where up in the mountains federal law enforcement was equated to "revenooers" looking for illegal moonshine stills--I was never surprised that he could hide out that long in the hills and that no one local tipped off the FBI.

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#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 09:27 AM

Quote

"He's a Christian and I'm a Christian and he dedicated his life to fighting abortion," said Mrs. Davis, 25, mother of four. "Those are our values. And I don't see what he did as a terrorist act."

This just doesn't make sense to me. Rudolph was against abortion, because he considered that to be murder. Yet, he bombed an Abortion clinic. (Not sure if that bomb killed anyone) But in essence he was willing to commit murder, to prevent what he considered murder.

*shake his head, confused*

Guess that's what I get for trying to make sense of a terrorist's actions, huh.

And as for the woman quoted above in the paper...So, by her statement, her belief's are it's ok to bomb abortion clinics???

Just goes to show how many sick people in the world there are.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#13 Uncle Sid

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 10:31 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Jun 1 2003, 05:31 PM, said:

This just doesn't make sense to me. Rudolph was against abortion, because he considered that to be murder. Yet, he bombed an Abortion clinic. (Not sure if that bomb killed anyone) But in essence he was willing to commit murder, to prevent what he considered murder.
Well, it illustrates the major problem.  It's one thing to say it's murder for murder, but what do you consider your duty to be if you were able to stop your next door neighbor from being killed by someone else?  Chances are, you wouldn't try and kill the assailant, you'd either call the police, or try to somehow disable the attacker.  Fair enough.

However what happens if you call the police, and they show up with instructions to stick you in the back of a police car for getting in the way of the attack, and then allow it to proceed?  

Obviously, many don't equate abortion with being an assault on their neighbor, but there are people who do.  It's a very difficult situation for someone who is pro-life and when you're already unstable, prone to violence, and have an extreme dislike of the government, it can give you that veneer of righteousness to allow this sort of thing to happen.  

Eric Rudolph is a terrorist, but there are a lot of people who are troubled by abortion and feel like they need to do something about it more effective and timely than sitting outside of abortion clinics behind the official protest limits or electing people who may or may not take care of the problem.  Those people don't like the extremes to which an Eric Rudolph might have gone, but I imagine some of them in their hearts wished that he'd gotten a few more clinics.  As long as there was nobody in them, of course.  

Although the people who feel like this might have decades and centuries of mistrust of the government, I think you are putting blinders on to just how much the abortion question matters to people and seriously troubles their conscience if you think they're ambivalent about him just because they're hillbillies and they dislike the G-men.  

After all, few people really truly mourn a murdered drug or gang kingpin, even though the murderer is just as wrong.  Instead, many think (and I often hear them say):

"Good... let the killers kill each other.  At least they killed someone who deserved it."  

And in the end, I think that's precisely what they're thinking in that community in NC.  It's hard to get really upset about someone who killed a person who you feel is a killer themselves.  It's not strange, or wierd, it's just how we tend to react to problems outside of our control.
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#14 G1223

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 10:44 AM

I undersyand Sid. I do not agree but I understand their POV. I do think the guy is as has been said by many is a Terrorist and a they need to find out who has been giving him assisstance and  place them in prison.

  As I remember the bombing a off duty police officer was killed and that means a trip to death row if convicted and if he is indeed guilty that is what should happen.
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#15 Uncle Sid

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 11:10 AM

Unfortunately, people like Rudolph are really less concerned with the actual goals of the movement that they are using as a vindication, and more concerned with hitting out.  That's why you end up with people getting hurt.  If a real pro-lifer was going to take out a clinic's abortion capabilities, they'd clear the building or ensure that it was empty, then get a feel for the layout and equipment there.  They might then assess the other operations of the building, including good services like being a free clinic for poor women for services other than abortion.  Once the planning was completed, they'd target abortion capabilities of the place and then leave.  If people would be hurt by this, they'd call off the operation.  (Somehow, I can't see them using the term "abort the mission").  

In the end, the act would probably be nothing more than a theft or vandalism and it would do more to "save babies" than sniping at abortion doctors or blowing up clinics.  But, then it's not flashy or angry enough for people like that.  

Eric Rudolph needs to go to jail (I don't support the death penalty), precisely because by his actions he showed that he really was not respectful of life even while trying to appear as a defender of such.  That's just like the terrorists in the Middle East who somehow think that by blowing up Israelis, they are going to keep the Israelis from blowing up their own people.  Or worse, they just want to blow people up, period.
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#16 Delvo

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 11:46 AM

The most useful distinction I've seen so far between terrorists and people legitimately fighting for a cause is that terrorists' actions are not really designed to further the cause that the perpetrators claim, as Sid described in this case, and as with the Muslim terrorists who know they will never end America's wealth or immorality the way they're going. This guy fits that description. But not all terrorists are created equal. This guy's idea was to expend life in the defense of life; the Muslims' is simply to destroy life that isn't enough like them.

But remember, many people don't even know who this guy is, precisely what he's supposed to have done, or what the evidence is against him, and those who do might not believe he's guilty as most of the USA tends to automaticly assume of any suspect. So what do they see? The Atlanta bombing, originally heavily reported as an Olymipics attack and not well known to have actually been connected with the abortion issue, was once supposed to be done by that security guy. The media and "feds" then came down on him like a hammer and ruined his life over what turned out to be nothing because he was innocent; his rural Southeastern accent had been enough. And now the "feds" have moved on and found their next person to accuse of it and, surprise of all surprises to rural Southeasterners, it was another rural Southeasterner.

To them, the being picked on by everyone else in the country just never ever ever ever ends. Just look at all the Christian-bashing, Southeasterner-bashing, ruralite-bashing, and conservative-bashing going on in just this thread alone. You people zeroed in on that and can't separate these things from your concept of everything that's wrong with the country and how and why this crime happened. Read the article's thick layers upon layers of description of the area and its people in general, demonizing them for just being who they are and associating them and dozens of their whole counties and their religion and their stereotypical political philosophy with this crime as if there's no distinction. The message, after one verbal assault like this after another after another after another after another all their lives, is very clear to Southeasterners: YOU are this guy. YOU are the biggest problem the world faces. And we are coming to get YOU.

If the big, looming, invasive power figure in your life came down on your town to find a local guy for a crime that had previously supposedly been committed by another stereotypically similar guy who was railroaded and then spat out innocent, and you had no reason to think this guy was the real culprit either and the feds were just pushing your people around Once Again, what would you think about it?

#17 MuseZack

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 02:05 PM

Delvo, on Jun 2 2003, 12:50 AM, said:

The most useful distinction I've seen so far between terrorists and people legitimately fighting for a cause is that terrorists' actions are not really designed to further the cause that the perpetrators claim, as Sid described in this case, and as with the Muslim terrorists who know they will never end America's wealth or immorality the way they're going. This guy fits that description. But not all terrorists are created equal. This guy's idea was to expend life in the defense of life; the Muslims' is simply to destroy life that isn't enough like them.

But remember, many people don't even know who this guy is, precisely what he's supposed to have done, or what the evidence is against him, and those who do might not believe he's guilty as most of the USA tends to automaticly assume of any suspect. So what do they see? The Atlanta bombing, originally heavily reported as an Olymipics attack and not well known to have actually been connected with the abortion issue, was once supposed to be done by that security guy. The media and "feds" then came down on him like a hammer and ruined his life over what turned out to be nothing because he was innocent; his rural Southeastern accent had been enough. And now the "feds" have moved on and found their next person to accuse of it and, surprise of all surprises to rural Southeasterners, it was another rural Southeasterner.

To them, the being picked on by everyone else in the country just never ever ever ever ends. Just look at all the Christian-bashing, Southeasterner-bashing, ruralite-bashing, and conservative-bashing going on in just this thread alone. You people zeroed in on that and can't separate these things from your concept of everything that's wrong with the country and how and why this crime happened. Read the article's thick layers upon layers of description of the area and its people in general, demonizing them for just being who they are and associating them and dozens of their whole counties and their religion and their stereotypical political philosophy with this crime as if there's no distinction. The message, after one verbal assault like this after another after another after another after another all their lives, is very clear to Southeasterners: YOU are this guy. YOU are the biggest problem the world faces. And we are coming to get YOU.

If the big, looming, invasive power figure in your life came down on your town to find a local guy for a crime that had previously supposedly been committed by another stereotypically similar guy who was railroaded and then spat out innocent, and you had no reason to think this guy was the real culprit either and the feds were just pushing your people around Once Again, what would you think about it?
Do you care to explain how blowing up a 44-year old mother in a public park during an Olympics celebration constitutes a "defense of life?"  Because I'd honestly like to know.  

And spare me the whole "conservative, rural, Southeasterner" bashing routine, because I don't see any of it going on here.  Hell, I'd stack my own small-town redneck credentials against any of the people quoted in this article.  No one put a gun to their heads and forced them to print T-shirts celebrating Rudolph's elusiveness, or made them give quotes justifying his actions to the media.  People are legitimately concerned at how certain segments of a particular community seem to be justifying and excusing murder and attempted murder, with some saying they would actively help the main suspect elude capture.

Attempting to deflect attention away from this and turn it into another lament about the poor, victimized South is the same kind of moral relativism that we rightfully decry when it rears its ugly head in the Middle East.  Colonialism and the occupation of the West Bank don't jusitfy September 11th any more than Ruby Ridge, legal abortion, and the existence of gay night clubs justify this string of bombings.  

The bottom line for me is simple:  murder is wrong.  Politically motivated murder is wrong.  And aiding and abetting suspected terrorist bombers is wrong, whether their last names are Atta and Salameh or McVeigh and Rudolph.  

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#18 G1223

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 02:11 PM

I was just going to say I do not care about where this happened I just want a murder suspect to be found and themn if found guilty have the penalty phase. Then if he loses that one then a last few days then the killers death.

I do not care about the killers race,religion,national origin or any of the other crap. If he is guilty then just a long enough delay to get around to handling any questions about that guilt and when that is over  they get hung shot given leathal drugs whatever the state has choosen.
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#19 Delvo

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 02:50 PM

MuseZack, on Jun 1 2003, 09:09 PM, said:

Attempting to deflect attention away from this and turn it into another lament about the poor, victimized South is the same kind of moral relativism
True, but it's also not what I did. I was not defending the bomber (if that's what he is), but describing the reactions of some other people in that area. Not everyone involved there is that woman who pretty much said it's OK to bomb the places. Some others have other reasons for their different reactions, such as not believing he's guilty and being suspicious that the feds came down once again on one of their own for some reason other than mere coincidence... and THAT's just the ones who were "on his side" regarding the law's search for him, which, I guarantee, is not most of them, although most newspapers and such will spare no effort or expense to make people think it's all of them.

His arrest story COULD, you know, have been written without all the anti-Southeastern, anti-Christian, anti-conservative, anti-ruralite verbiage, and even the comments of a few individual locals ABOUT it could have been chosen less narrowly and not used to falsely represent the entire region and culture. The stereotyping that saturates some posts in this thread and the article itself is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Yes, it's a bit of a change of subject from the original post, but then, it's a DIRECT RESPONSE to the stereotyping assault you yourself (and the author of the article in question) launched when you painted an entire region and subculture with that bloody brush.

Edited by Delvo, 02 June 2003 - 02:54 PM.


#20 MuseZack

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 03:06 PM

To use your favorite debating term-- lies.

Show me where I make a "stereotyping assault" on an entire region and subculture.  

Then show me how the media has it in for the entire region and people.  Be sure to reconcile that with how they've made a hero (and rightly so!) out of the 21-year old rookie cop who made the arrest.  

Zack

P.S.  Extra credit if you can explain how the media spending the last two months celebrating (also rightfully) the heroism of PFC Jessica Lynch and the patriotic, service-oriented community she came from equals bias and prejudice against rural Appalachia.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin



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