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The Smoking Police Come Home To Roost

Smoking Bans Free Enterprise

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#1 Mary Rose

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 10:52 AM

I guess I should have expected it since Conneticut is so close to New York.  But it looks like we'll soon have a smoking ban in all bars and resturants here.

Now I'm an ashmatic, as my custom title will tell you. :)   I don't  smoke and I don't like smoking.

But hey, shouldn't it be up to the indivdual business owner whether they go smoke free or not?  Supposedly we are still a free country.  I wonder how long that will last? :sarcasm:
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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 10:54 AM

I agree with you Mary.

I love the no-smoking environment here in Tucson.

But I wish it was won by the free-market, and not the pleasure police...
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#3 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:12 AM

Mary Rose, on Jun 2 2003, 11:56 PM, said:

I guess I should have expected it since Conneticut is so close to New York.  But it looks like we'll soon have a smoking ban in all bars and resturants here.

Now I'm an ashmatic, as my custom title will tell you. :)   I don't  smoke and I don't like smoking.

But hey, shouldn't it be up to the indivdual business owner whether they go smoke free or not?  Supposedly we are still a free country.  I wonder how long that will last? :sarcasm:
What did you expect from folks who think the freedom to live life as you want applies to them and them alone.

I am glad I do not live with them.  Maybe the smokers need to get organized and then make life a living hell for politicians who support this crap.
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#4 Laoise

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:13 AM

All resturants in Edmonton became non-smoking as of yesterday. :D

In about 3 months (allowing time for the smell to mostly fade from seats and whatnot) I should be able to eat in any resturant I want and not have to be drugged up to do so! :hehe:

By 2005, all bars and bingo halls are slated to be non-smoking as well.  I'm one happy tumbleweed over this.
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#5 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:16 AM

Then well Edmonton have a law giving me children free restruants? So I do not have to deal with someones new born or child that wants to whine so loud he shatters glass?

Yes the freedom to be so free so smokers why not a ban against them buying the cancer sticks in Edmonton?  I understand your health problems but the rest of the world might like the freedom to do something?
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#6 Laoise

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:20 AM

Smokers still have freedom to smoke and eat at the same time.  In their own homes, of course, but they still have that option.

Smoke, unlike harmful and controlled substances, does not recognize barriors between smoking and non-smoking patrons.  It goes where it pleases, and everyone in the vicinity can suffer health problems whether they smoke or not.  If smoke were literate enough to read the "Non-smoking Section" signs, then there would be no need to cut it out all together.  Unfortunately, literacy classes for cigarette smoke have a 0% success rate.

Edmonton, btw, does have childfree resturants, although they don't use that term.  Lounges and bars both serve food, most often in a setting identical to that of a resturant, and are childfree.

BTW, I'm ridiculously biased against smoke, and pretty much refuse to see reason.  We all have our faults, I suppose....

Edited by Laoise, 03 June 2003 - 11:21 AM.

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#7 Christopher

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:30 AM

Mary Rose, on Jun 2 2003, 07:56 PM, said:

But hey, shouldn't it be up to the indivdual business owner whether they go smoke free or not?  Supposedly we are still a free country.  I wonder how long that will last? :sarcasm:
No one has the "freedom" to poison other people, and that's exactly what people who smoke in public do.  Take it from someone with experience -- just having a smoking and non-smoking section in the same restaurant doesn't fully protect us non-smokers from exposure.  Also, food preparation in the presence of tobacco smoke is a health hazard.

I have nothing but contempt for smokers who scream about their own rights but ignore the right of the people around them not to be exposed to toxic chemicals.
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#8 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:33 AM

Chris-- Why can't restaurant owners make the decision on their own to go non-smoking? Why does big brother need to make that decision for them?
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#9 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:39 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 3 2003, 12:37 AM, said:

Chris-- Why can't restaurant owners make the decision on their own to go non-smoking? Why does big brother need to make that decision for them?
Because they are stupid and would not do what smoke nazi's want. The restruants would want costumers not a smoke free enviroment.
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#10 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:43 AM

Laoise, on Jun 3 2003, 12:24 AM, said:

Smokers still have freedom to smoke and eat at the same time.  In their own homes, of course, but they still have that option.

Smoke, unlike harmful and controlled substances, does not recognize barriors between smoking and non-smoking patrons.  It goes where it pleases, and everyone in the vicinity can suffer health problems whether they smoke or not.  If smoke were literate enough to read the "Non-smoking Section" signs, then there would be no need to cut it out all together.  Unfortunately, literacy classes for cigarette smoke have a 0% success rate.

Edmonton, btw, does have childfree resturants, although they don't use that term.  Lounges and bars both serve food, most often in a setting identical to that of a resturant, and are childfree.

BTW, I'm ridiculously biased against smoke, and pretty much refuse to see reason.  We all have our faults, I suppose....
So that is awful nice you would allow them to smoke at home.   Why not have them made air tight or would you prefer to take other rights from them instead.

Forgive me I have this wish to allowing folks the freedom to be alive rather than die in a sterile box at others demands. Unless they have violated laws of common sense.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#11 Mary Rose

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:53 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 3 2003, 12:37 AM, said:

Chris-- Why can't restaurant owners make the decision on their own to go non-smoking? Why does big brother need to make that decision for them?

That's exactly my point, Rov.  I'm no fan of smoking but I do feel that this is another case of govorment sticking their noses in where they don't belong. 

There were a lot of chins that went smoke free voluntarily.  If someone still wants to allow smoking in their business, it's their choice.  You don't have to patronize it.

BTW, some bars in NYC are suffering so badly because of the new bar ban that they might have to close.  Tell me again how that's a good thing.:angry:
That's exactly my point, Rov.  I'm no fan of smoking but I do feel that this is another case of govorment sticking their noses in where they don't belong.

There were a lot of chains that went smoke free voluntarily.  If someone still wants to allow smoking in their business, it should be their choice.  You don't have to patronize it.

BTW, some bars in NYC are suffering so badly because of the new ban that they might have to close.  Tell me again how this is a good thing. :glare:  :angry:
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#12 ZipperInt

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:20 PM

Quote

Forgive me I have this wish to allowing folks the freedom to be alive rather than die in a sterile box at others demands. Unless they have violated laws of common sense.

  Does common sense include *not* slowly poisoning yourself? (No offense intended, just trying to make a point)
  Smoking, as Christopher mentioned, is not something that affects only the person smoking the cigarette. How do the rights of smokers outweigh the rights of non-smokers? I don't like the government imposing laws, but it seems to me that many shop owners would rather have a smoking environment so as not to alienate smoking customers (to make as much $$ as possible, of course  :D ).
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#13 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:26 PM

ZipperInt, on Jun 3 2003, 01:24 AM, said:

Quote

Forgive me I have this wish to allowing folks the freedom to be alive rather than die in a sterile box at others demands. Unless they have violated laws of common sense.

  Does common sense include *not* slowly poisoning yourself? (No offense intended, just trying to make a point)
  Smoking, as Christopher mentioned, is not something that affects only the person smoking the cigarette. How do the rights of smokers outweigh the rights of non-smokers? I don't like the government imposing laws, but it seems to me that many shop owners would rather have a smoking environment so as not to alienate smoking customers (to make as much $$ as possible, of course  :D ).
So we are goingto ban cars and planes. They make more smoke daily that doulbe the number of smokers. They put out carbon monoxide in huge clouds and you have to be among them be it on the sidewalk or in your own car.  No one has done a study about smog in a long time but they showed there was a connection of smog to lung cancer.

The cars still put out smoke maybe not as much as they used to but smoke none the less. Think about it when you drive to work (even if you take the bus or carpool)
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

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#14 rhuhne

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:08 PM

California made smoking in bars and restaurants several years ago. Some of the bar owners decided it was not their job to be the smoking police so they would provide "peanut shell receptacles" and if patrons chose to break the law that would be their problem. That is until the fines started to be levied against the bar owners for allowing illegal activities to take place in their establishment. Now most bars provide smoking areas outside for their customers.

While their was an initial drop off of customers as people adapted the business came back up.

It would be nice if the goverment allowed owners to choose whether or not they were smoke free, however what got the bill passed was providing EMPLOYEES with a safe environment and not subjected to the harms of a known carcinogen. I would think one would not choose to work in an unsafe environment but it was pushed ion courts and the antismoking lobbyists won.

It all works out. Private clubs are not necessarily included in the law so that actually provides more business opportunities.

#15 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:10 PM

:angry:

I'll try and keep my temper in this thread.... I'll try.

As far as Big Brother coming in and telling me where I can, and more importantly, where I can't smoke.... I feel sorry for the official that makes such an attempt.  :angry:

Who decides who's rights are more important? Smoker's rights vs. non-smokers? Who's rights are more important?

The answer is simple: neither is more important then the other. A compromise is the best solution.

I could understand non-smokers wanting a seperate section, that's fine. Some resturants have even gone so far to make sure the seperate sections are completely seperate. Seperate ventilation and everything.

Now they want to make all resturants non-smoking. I can only hope that Phillip Morris and all the smokers get together and boycott these places. I know that I personally don't give my business to resturants that discriminate against smokers....and that's just what it is....discrimination  :angry:

If a resturant had a sign saying smoking only, you can be sure some non-smoker would be whining and B***hing about their being discriminated against.

I can only speak for myself, not all Smokers. I've been in a Smoking section, enjoying my cigarette, and have been asked "Politely" if I'd mind putting it out. My response, when asked politely, has always been to either put it out, or go outside.

I've also been "Told" to put it out. The people who "Tell" me to put it out usually wind up getting a puff of smoke right in their face.

And Chris, as far as your post:

Quote

I have nothing but contempt for smokers who scream about their own rights but ignore the right of the people around them not to be exposed to toxic chemicals

I have nothing but contempt for non-smoker's who think their rights are all that matter :angry:

And Laoise, as for your comment:

Quote

Smokers still have freedom to smoke and eat at the same time. In their own homes, of course, but they still have that option.

You non smokers also have the same right to stay in your homes and eat.

*decides  to leave the thread before he goes ballistic*
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#16 ZipperInt

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:16 PM

Quote

The cars still put out smoke maybe not as much as they used to but smoke none the less. Think about it when you drive to work (even if you take the bus or carpool)

  Yes, the cars put out smoke. People can choose to move to a less urban environment if the smoke bothers them too much, they can also choose to wear a mask to lessen the effects (I've seen it with SARS, thankfully haven't seen it for smog yet!). The operative word being 'choose'.  So what is the difference between choosing to live in an area with heavy traffic and going into a bar/restaurant with smoking? Cars and trucks are essential to our modern society, smoking is not; also, cars/trucks are usually operated in open places, so the effects aren't as intense as breathing smoke right out of the pipe, or being in close proximity in an enclosed area.
  Smoking kills people. That is a proven fact. Why anyone would want to smoke is beyond me, but that is an individual choice. Smoking in a public place does not affect an individual person, but everyone around that person. If we let them because "it's their right", why should I not be able to go around spraying skunk juice (or some other foul smelling, poisonous gas), because it's my right?
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#17 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:27 PM

Recall that one of the prerequisites for many rights is that they do not harm others.  You have freedom of speech yet you can’t scream fire in a crowded building or make prank calls to the police.  To quote the Declaration of Independence because I think it spells it out quite clearly.

Quote

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --

Smoking through second hand smoke inhalation is a killer and deprives others of their right to life.  Now you can say non-smokers can simply avoid establishments that choose to have smoking on the premise. I put forth though that you are then restricting the liberty of nonsmokers because one of the basic rights of liberty is mobility.  They have a choice between liberty or life in the case of entering smoking establishments.  This is especially true for public places to which restaurants belong.  Smokers in being restricted from smoking at a given location can still smoke other locations and do not have their mobility derestricted.  I think of the three rights life is the most important to protect because the removal of it kills the other two rights.    

I think the smoking bans are within the spirit of what the Founding Fathers wrote in the Declaration of Independence.  Somehow I doubt they’d think one of the basic rights of citizens is the right to slowly kill their fellow citizens with cancer causers.  Now that’s just a basic argument based off the Declaration of Independence but I’m sure with some more research into the Constitutional side of the issue I think we can more than find ample backing for the bans.  

I’m all with New York State on this one and hope other states jump onboard.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 03 June 2003 - 01:31 PM.

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#18 rhuhne

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:39 PM

People don't have to go to places that allow smoking. That doesn't restrict their right to mobility. they can go anywhere they want. They still have freedom of choice.

We allow our food to be irradiated.
We allow chlorine and flouride in our water.
We allow our food to be grown in soil with depleted minerals or fed poisons.
We allow the dumping of chemicals and sewage into our drinking resources.
We whine about a little smoke.

#19 G1223

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:50 PM

So no smoking in restraunts hotels theaters why go to NYC? Oh wait that's right murder is down from last year.  

Maybe they can get around to making drinking Illegal again after all that kills folks too. Oh eating meat. It casues agression.

I can see the founding fathers sitting there a few of them smoking a pipe and being told this place is non smoking and them getting up and leaving. Then gathering where those few could smoke.
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TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#20 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:58 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 3 2003, 02:31 AM, said:

Recall that one of the prerequisites for many rights is that they do not harm others.  You have freedom of speech yet you can’t scream fire in a crowded building or make prank calls to the police.  To quote the Declaration of Independence because I think it spells it out quite clearly.

Quote

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --

Smoking through second hand smoke inhalation is a killer and deprives others of their right to life.  Now you can say non-smokers can simply avoid establishments that choose to have smoking on the premise. I put forth though that you are then restricting the liberty of nonsmokers because one of the basic rights of liberty is mobility.  They have a choice between liberty or life in the case of entering smoking establishments.  This is especially true for public places to which restaurants belong.  Smokers in being restricted from smoking at a given location can still smoke other locations and do not have their mobility derestricted.  I think of the three rights life is the most important to protect because the removal of it kills the other two rights.    

I think the smoking bans are within the spirit of what the Founding Fathers wrote in the Declaration of Independence.  Somehow I doubt they’d think one of the basic rights of citizens is the right to slowly kill their fellow citizens with cancer causers.  Now that’s just a basic argument based off the Declaration of Independence but I’m sure with some more research into the Constitutional side of the issue I think we can more than find ample backing for the bans.  

I’m all with New York State on this one and hope other states jump onboard.
So, CJ, by your post then it also stands to reason that people shouldn't be allowed any alocoholic beverage in these resturants?

Afterall, I find the very smell of alcohol offensive, almost sickening. So, should my right not to be subjected to the nauseating smell of beer take away another's right to drink it?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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