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"Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs"

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#21 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 06:49 PM

Well - you're kinda shadowboxing there, DM. I've never said it wasn't idealistic, or that people will happily go along and do the kinds of things mentioned in my post.  I've only said that this is what could be done.  SO you have no argument with me, so far as I'm concerned.  You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

Frankly though, I'm surprised you don't see the potential tax benefit of proofing nicotine.  The more nicotine, the more taxes, and the more people start bragging about doing the "hard stuff."    Be interesting to see an Indiana Jones type scene with two opponents staring steely-eyed at one another and whipping out a Phillip-Morris Bullet, passing it back and forth between them until one of them passes out...

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#22 Vapor Trails

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 07:01 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 24 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

Well - you're kinda shadowboxing there, DM. I've never said it wasn't idealistic, or that people will happily go along and do the kinds of things mentioned in my post.  I've only said that this is what could be done.  SO you have no argument with me, so far as I'm concerned.  You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

I'm arguing against the ideas you posted, because IMHO, they don't have a realistic chance of working.

Quote

Frankly though, I'm surprised you don't see the potential tax benefit of proofing nicotine.  The more nicotine, the more taxes, and the more people start bragging about doing the "hard stuff."    Be interesting to see an Indiana Jones type scene with two opponents staring steely-eyed at one another and whipping out a Phillip-Morris Bullet, passing it back and forth between them until one of them passes out...

QT

If by "proofing" you mean making it more and more expensive so that it becomes harder to buy-so what? You know that won't stop a hardened addict.

With your logic-why not legalize pot, heroin and coke-and "proof" them as well?

:wacko:
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#23 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 07:13 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Mar 24 2007, 08:01 PM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 24 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

Well - you're kinda shadowboxing there, DM. I've never said it wasn't idealistic, or that people will happily go along and do the kinds of things mentioned in my post.  I've only said that this is what could be done.  SO you have no argument with me, so far as I'm concerned.  You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

I'm arguing against the ideas you posted, because IMHO, they don't have a realistic chance of working.

No you're not.  Or at least - you haven't yet.  You argued against the realistic chances of such ideas being implemented.  Whether or not once implemented they would work is a different question.

Quote

Quote

Frankly though, I'm surprised you don't see the potential tax benefit of proofing nicotine.  The more nicotine, the more taxes, and the more people start bragging about doing the "hard stuff."    Be interesting to see an Indiana Jones type scene with two opponents staring steely-eyed at one another and whipping out a Phillip-Morris Bullet, passing it back and forth between them until one of them passes out...

QT

If by "proofing" you mean making it more and more expensive so that it becomes harder to buy-so what? You know that won't stop a hardened addict.

With your logic-why not legalize pot, heroin and coke-and "proof" them as well?

:wacko:


By proofing, I mean labelling the product by how much nicotine it has, the way labels are required to report for alcoholic beverages.  The additional idea of taxing more the higher the proof, is a different issue.

And - I'm actually in favor of legalizing drugs across the board, and expanding treatment facilities and other intervention methods, as well as expanding the criminalization of crimes committed while impaired.  Either that, or illegalizing ALL drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, if not administered by a competent physician (and still expanding intervention methods and criminalization of crimes committed while impaired).

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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 07:20 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Mar 24 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

I call bullsh!t on the alcohol part of the story for one very important reason-

I've heard that folks like the Italians have wine with every meal-they drink in moderation. I haven't heard about folks like this, who are careful with their intake, becoming alcoholics.

And there's the key-moderation. You can't do that with smoking. Smoking has chemicials in it that are desgined to make you an addict. That's something I know about from living with my father, who was a smoker for 36 years. He was also an alcoholic, so I know something about that, too. It's why he became a diabetic-he f*cked up his pancreas.

I know people who drink responsibly, who didn't become alcoholics. So-what does that say?

:rolleyes:

It means that they're not alcoholics.  It doesn't change the damaging quality of alcohol.  And btw, you can't moderate if you're an alcoholic.  If you're addicted you're addicted.  

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 07:50 PM

Quote

QT-Well - you're kinda shadowboxing there, DM. I've never said it wasn't idealistic, or that people will happily go along and do the kinds of things mentioned in my post.  I've only said that this is what could be done.  SO you have no argument with me, so far as I'm concerned.  You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

Quote

DM-I'm arguing against the ideas you posted, because IMHO, they don't have a realistic chance of working.

Quote

QT-No you're not.  Or at least - you haven't yet.  You argued against the realistic chances of such ideas being implemented.  Whether or not once implemented they would work is a different question.

Now, you're playing semantics. Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. :sarcasm:

Quote

QT-Frankly though, I'm surprised you don't see the potential tax benefit of proofing nicotine.  The more nicotine, the more taxes, and the more people start bragging about doing the "hard stuff."    Be interesting to see an Indiana Jones type scene with two opponents staring steely-eyed at one another and whipping out a Phillip-Morris Bullet, passing it back and forth between them until one of them passes out...

Quote

DM-If by "proofing" you mean making it more and more expensive so that it becomes harder to buy-so what? You know that won't stop a hardened addict.

With your logic-why not legalize pot, heroin and coke-and "proof" them as well?

:wacko:


Quote

QT-By proofing, I mean labelling the product by how much nicotine it has, the way labels are required to report for alcoholic beverages.  The additional idea of taxing more the higher the proof, is a different issue.

And you'll still have the double-standard of coke/heroin/pot vs. cigarettes. A higher tax will not mean a thing to an addict.

Edited by Digital Man, 24 March 2007 - 07:51 PM.

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#26 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 07:54 PM

Well - thing is - in the main, we aren't disagreeing, which is what I'm trying to convey.  

The double-standard you speak of I addressed in the second part of my post - which you ignored.

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 08:03 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Mar 24 2007, 07:20 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on Mar 24 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

I call bullsh!t on the alcohol part of the story for one very important reason-

I've heard that folks like the Italians have wine with every meal-they drink in moderation. I haven't heard about folks like this, who are careful with their intake, becoming alcoholics.

And there's the key-moderation. You can't do that with smoking. Smoking has chemicials in it that are desgined to make you an addict. That's something I know about from living with my father, who was a smoker for 36 years. He was also an alcoholic, so I know something about that, too. It's why he became a diabetic-he f*cked up his pancreas.

I know people who drink responsibly, who didn't become alcoholics. So-what does that say?

:rolleyes:

It means that they're not alcoholics.  It doesn't change the damaging quality of alcohol.  And btw, you can't moderate if you're an alcoholic.  If you're addicted you're addicted.  

Lil

No argument there. If you drink excessively, the greater a chance of you becoming addicted-particularly if you are prone to get drunk easily.
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#28 Themis

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 08:07 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 25 2007, 12:13 AM, said:

And - I'm actually in favor of legalizing drugs across the board, and expanding treatment facilities and other intervention methods, as well as expanding the criminalization of crimes committed while impaired.  Either that, or illegalizing ALL drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, if not administered by a competent physician (and still expanding intervention methods and criminalization of crimes committed while impaired).

QT

Not a bad idea at all.  I've always thought marijuana should be in the same category as alcohol.  It certainly smells better than "legal" cigarettes, I'm not allergic to the smoke and when I've been around people smoking one, I haven't noticed any debilitating effects.  It's a waste of tax money to enforce those laws.  Impairment and damage/crimes committed while someone's impaired - yes, prosecute!   Other than "impairment and damage/crimes committed while someone's impaired," most legal and illegal drugs only affect the person imbibing.  Tobacco smoke, otoh, affects anyone within its range... so if anything, that's the substance that should be illegal.

It seems to be our inherited puritan culture (in the US - not sure what the problem is in the UK) that makes drinking alchohol, including wine, "forbidden" and getting drunk "fun."  It's a part of life in continental Europe, which removes that element.  Smoking being "ok" - I don't know, maybe smoking the peace pipe with the Indians???

To the religious faction - Jesus drank wine.  Like most things, moderation in all things lets you enjoy things while not abusing them - that goes for drugs, alcohol, food and so many other things.  

I know I tend to drink more than I should at home - just like I eat too much at home. Being single may have a lot to do with both.   If it tastes good and there's more, I'll have more.  But I stop at a point where I know it's affecting me.  At home, I might find myself getting "high" for that reason - I DON'T get drunk.  I've suffered depression and I'm terminally single, which may be a part of why I'm more likely to overindulge at home.  People who do that intentionally must really be in pain.

When I'm out, I'm conscious of needing to drive home (I might be a teeny bit less observant if there was public transport) so limit myself to what I can handle with a meal and still drive responsibly.  Which is a hard drink before/with salad or appetizer and wine with or two wines.  

(side note - if I could afford it, I'd eat at very expensive restaurants every night - they give you reasonable portions.  The more inexpensive the restaurant, the more huge the portion - why is that?!  As someone who cooks for one, there's often more to eat but not enough to make another full meal, so if I'm loving it, I'll finish it!  Dang my mother for  the "clean your plate or don't leave the table" rules.....)

And I've never, ever, ever intentionally gotten drunk - maybe because my parents had before-dinner drinks every night and gave me sips (from mid-high school, as I recall) if I asked, plus wine with holiday meals, so it was never really "forbidden fruit."  It was never a "thrill," but a taste I acquired.  (Maybe related to the fact that I still don't have a sweet tooth - a good thing as I was diagnosed type 2 diabetic a couple of years ago...) To this day, I fail to see the attraction of Budweiser and most other US beers, especially "lite" beers except on a very, very hot day outdoors.  I definitely don't understand the attraction of intentionally getting drunk.  Gods, it was bad enough when it happened by accidental overindulgence.  I definitely don't like spinning beds!  (For anyone who wonders, I've gone through several periods of alcohol avoidance, either for a bet or for medical tests and had no problems other than missing wine with meals that would've been so much better with wine!)

Getting drunk intentionally, getting high on illegal substances intentionally, may be a cultural thing.  May be a societal thing.  May be a "feeling isolated" thing.  Intellectually, maybe I can understand it.  In my world, I can't.

The problem rests with individuals, societies and governments.  But I definitely like QT's approach to concentrating on resulting crimes (and damage) rather than using a particular substance.
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#29 Vapor Trails

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 08:14 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Mar 24 2007, 07:54 PM, said:

The double-standard you speak of I addressed in the second part of my post - which you ignored.

QT

Actually, I didn't ignore it. I've also said "legalize them all, or ban them all".

But that's not going to happen.

Anyway-it's time for me to bow out of this thread. I've pretty much said all I'm going to say on this subject.
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#30 Captain Jack

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 09:20 PM

A moot point for me since I believe that ALL drugs are bad for you.  That includes tobacco, and so forth.  Alcohol can be good for you though.  A glass of red wine during dinner is good for your heart.  White whine is good for your blood pressure or something.  I can't remember.  But binging on alcohol isn't good for you, so drink it wisely.
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#31 Rhea

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 11:26 PM

View PostThemis, on Mar 24 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

Not a bad idea at all.  I've always thought marijuana should be in the same category as alcohol.  It certainly smells better than "legal" cigarettes, I'm not allergic to the smoke and when I've been around people smoking one, I haven't noticed any debilitating effects.  It's a waste of tax money to enforce those laws.  Impairment and damage/crimes committed while someone's impaired - yes, prosecute!   Other than "impairment and damage/crimes committed while someone's impaired," most legal and illegal drugs only affect the person imbibing.  Tobacco smoke, otoh, affects anyone within its range... so if anything, that's the substance that should be illegal.

Back in the 60's and 70's, when they did allergy testing they included tobacco and marijuana. Turns out I'm allergic to both. Or as the allergist put it, "You know that feeling you get when you smoke dope that you can't breathe? Well, it turns out you really can't." :p (I never really smoked it in the first place anyway. In fact, I got ragged on a lot back then because I didn't do drugs or smoke dope. Good thing, I guess.)
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#32 Raina

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 05:50 AM

SparkyCola said:

The problem with alcohol is that, ok, it is not addictive like cigarettes. But where as smoking is not that cool these days, binge drinking and excessive alcohol consumption are a big problem in the UK. Probably worse than in the US. It's a cultural thing. Underage kids think that getting trolleyed every single night is "fun" or somehow the way to live their lives.
I've noticed that here, it seems to be more of a thing for university students to do.

Digital Man said:

Umm...if you learn from the very beginning that you get tipsy real quick from drinking a small bit, then isn't that enough of a hint? You only need to stick your hand in the fire ONCE to know that fire burns.
That doesn't mean that you're prone to alcoholism though. I have a pretty low alcohol tolerance, and I don't drink that often: only when friends invite me out for drinks and I have no homework to do, which is usually pretty rare: I sometimes go for months without having a single drink. I can drink one martini, feel pretty darn tipsy, and stop right there. So I don't see what the correlation is between alcohol tolerance and alcholism. :unsure:

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#33 Nonny

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 08:57 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Mar 24 2007, 03:58 PM, said:

Personally I prefer to treat alcohol as a treat. It's an expensive drink after all. For me it was never some kind of "means to an end"  - the end being to get drunk. If an alcopop tastes just like lemonade, I'd rather save my money and drink lemonade, thanks.
That's pretty much my attitude too.  I resisted peer pressure when I was a kid, didn't try alcohol till my 21st birthday, then didn't see the point of drinking to drunkenness.  Well, except for that time I was stung by a Portuguese Man o' War and was assured that it would help me feel no pain and it did.   :p  Or when I was celebrating my 40th birthday, and woke up thinking OMG I really do look different.   :eek2:    

I also didn't experiment with drugs, and I never, ever tried any tobacco product at all, ever.  Growing up in a smoke-drenched house helped me resist that, or, more likely, innoculated me from it.  

Hmmm, experiencing withdrawal when I gave up chocolate all those years ago really put the fear in me.  I would never want to go through that again.

Okay, rambling now, so I'll stop.   :blush:

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#34 Cheile

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:03 AM

a little bird pointed me toward this thread so i figured i'd stick in my two cents--though it's from observations and not personal experience since i seem to have little to no taste for alcohol. :p

Grandpa--before his illness--would have a couple drinks a day.  he's an Italian and like all Italians, he liked his daily glass (or one and a half) of wine.  if we went out and the place served mixed drinks, he'd order a martini.  sometimes he'd have a martini at home.

he was NOT what i would call an alcoholic.  he knew better than to drive at any point after having either and i don't often remember seeing him not eat around the same time.  (i.e. the martini would be before dinner was served, or the wine would go WITH dinner).

but then those of European blood seem to be better at handling their alcohol.  i remember several years ago reading an article about a study that showed that there was far less alcoholism in French people compared to Americans, even though they drank more frequently (they apparently like the glass of wine with dinner every night concept as well as the Italians) than Americans.

so maybe the problem is specific to Americans?  i have noticed in my travels--having been fortunate enough to go to Europe--that there were far fewer drunks on the street at night in Rome, Paris and London than i have seen around in LA, San Francisco and the like.  but your mileage may vary.

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#35 ilexx

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 03:04 AM

I doubt it to be a matter of 'European blood'. There is a distinct difference between North and West, and South and East Europe. And it's not really about the fact that, as it is about how we drink: to people from Southern and Eastern Europe food and drinkl in general are a serious matter to be dealt with in company.

We don't eat and drink alone, we don't eat and drink reading newspapers or in front of the tv, we mostly don't eat and drink quickly. You come home, you start cooking for the entire family, it's mostly starters, main course, salad, cheese and/or desert. The order may vary, sometimes there is something lacking or added to it, but those are the basics. Not all do it that way, but about 75% do (from Portugal to Turkey). The process of preparing and consuming food takes 2-3 hours each day and is mostly not a solitary business.

Dinner is about eating, talking and the 1-2 glasses of wine you drink (along with plenty of water as well) are consumed over a longer period of time. What's also important: I don't know about the US, but in Europe it is considered ill-mannered to have the glass of wine filled up. Regardless of the size of the glass, the liquid mustn't reach into the upper half of the glass. The water glasses however are filled up (and they are a must on the table) - and when it's there next to you, you drink the water, too.

And when you go out with friends, you don't just go out for drinks, but mostly for food, too.

It's a bit of a different approach than from what I've seen in the States or in Northern Europe.

#36 SparkyCola

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 05:45 AM

Yeah, Northern Europe including the UK - I know we have a MAJOR problem with alcohol over here, I'd be surprised if it were worse in the US. But in Southern European countries- like ilexx says- it's a drink with a meal. Does anyone know if drinking with a meal helps in some way? I have the impression it helps water it down or something...

Nonny, lol. As for the smoking and drugs thing, me too, and I intend to keep it that way.

As for getting rid of it completely, even though I hardly ever drink I would hate to see it banned completely. In the UK, real ales are a part of our culture and heritage. In France it's the same with wine. (Though may I add English wines are highly underrated). It would be sad to see that go, in my opinion.

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#37 EChatty

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 10:08 AM

IIRC Sparky, food slows down your body's absorption of alcohol.

In other words, drinking alcohol on an empty stomach, as with any liquid, it will get into your bloodstream faster than the liver can metabolize it. Taken with food, the stomach has to digest the food before it can get to the alcohol.

I've read that it takes around an hour for the liver to metabolize an average alcoholic drink and if you sip your drink instead of guzzle it then the liver also has time to metabolize it.

Most people don't understand that and think they need to speed-drink.

Check this out:


http://www.intox.com/about_alcohol.asp

#38 Kosh

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 11:25 AM

View PostSpidey, on Mar 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said:

A moot point for me since I believe that ALL drugs are bad for you.  That includes tobacco, and so forth.  Alcohol can be good for you though.  A glass of red wine during dinner is good for your heart.  White whine is good for your blood pressure or something.  I can't remember.  But binging on alcohol isn't good for you, so drink it wisely.


A doctor told me, three to five glasses a week are good for you, at least red wine. Less then three and you don't get the benifit, more then five, and it's too much alcohol. Most people can't stick to that, so you are better off not drinking.









Quote

If those folks who drink in moderation became alcoholics on a widespread basis, then I would view alcohol differently.

They do. It's mostly the quite ones, that don't drink in front of people, and no one finds out they are alcoholics till they are old and it's too late to help them. Far more common then you might think.
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#39 Nonny

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:00 PM

View PostKosh, on Mar 26 2007, 09:25 AM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Mar 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said:

A moot point for me since I believe that ALL drugs are bad for you.  That includes tobacco, and so forth.  Alcohol can be good for you though.  A glass of red wine during dinner is good for your heart.  White whine is good for your blood pressure or something.  I can't remember.  But binging on alcohol isn't good for you, so drink it wisely.


A doctor told me, three to five glasses a week are good for you, at least red wine. Less then three and you don't get the benifit, more then five, and it's too much alcohol. Most people can't stick to that, so you are better off not drinking.
Someone did a study to find out if grape juice provides the same benefit as red wine, and discovered that, yes, concord grape juice does.  

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#40 Zwolf

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:50 PM

First up, I hate all recreational drugs, so I'm not in favor of any of 'em, legal or otherwise.

But, one reason some drugs are okay and some aren't is essentially that some drugs are taxed... and some aren't.   The government doesn't like those untaxed drugs, just like it doesn't like moonshine... even though alcohol's legal.   It'd be a lot harder to tax marijuana, because you could grow it yourself.  You could grow tobacco yourself, too, but it requires a lot more curing and processing than pot does.

I don't like the stuff at all, but it'd probably cause less problems for society than alcohol does.  I'm not for legalizing pot, though, unless we get to take alcohol back... and, that really didn't work too well the first time it was tried, so...

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I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"



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