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Sainthood For John Paul II ?

Catholicism Pope John Paul II Sainthood? 2007 Religion

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#21 Nonny

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:21 PM

Vatican politics.  They want to get him sainted up while the gettin's good.
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#22 Tricia

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:29 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 5 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Apr 6 2007, 01:27 AM, said:

From the beginning of the thread Scott, apparently someone claims they were healed of cancer after praying for John Paul II's intercession.

Cancer does go into remission at times, and it would appear to be trivially easy for his supporters to claim it was due to his miraculous influence. I mean, who needs actuall medical science when you have saints right?

I just realized after reading this post that this info is wrong...

Unless there is another case that I have not heard of....

Quote

Officials will study the case of Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, a 46-year-old French nun diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease the same illness that afflicted the late Pope that inexplicably disappeared two months after John Paul had died.

Not cancer...but Parkinson's is what the nun says she is cured of.

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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:47 PM

View PostDev F, on Apr 5 2007, 06:56 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Apr 5 2007, 08:22 PM, said:

"Thou shalt have no false gods before me".  First Commandment.

If this person actually prayed *to* the pope (as opposed to God) then she is guilty of violating that commandment and the Catholic Church has no business canonizing someone who was substituted for God.
Catholics pray for the saints to intercede on their behalf with God all the time. It's one of the big practical differences between them and the Protestants.

The Pope isn't a Saint.

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#24 Dev F

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:34 PM

^

Oh yeah. :)

Same difference, though; you don't have to be a canonized saint to intercede. In fact, you don't get to become canonized until you've done exactly that -- that's what this whole "two miracles" thing is about.

When I was in elementary school, the nuns gave us a special prayer to the (uncanonized) founder of their order and asked us to pray for a particular person's miraculous recovery -- the idea was that if this person got better while all of us were praying for Mother Theodore's intercession, it'd be her second miracle and she could finally become a saint.

Edited by Dev F, 05 April 2007 - 10:38 PM.


#25 BklnScott

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:40 PM

View Posttrikay, on Apr 5 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 5 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Apr 6 2007, 01:27 AM, said:

From the beginning of the thread Scott, apparently someone claims they were healed of cancer after praying for John Paul II's intercession.

Cancer does go into remission at times, and it would appear to be trivially easy for his supporters to claim it was due to his miraculous influence. I mean, who needs actuall medical science when you have saints right?

I just realized after reading this post that this info is wrong...

Unless there is another case that I have not heard of....

Quote

Officials will study the case of Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, a 46-year-old French nun diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease the same illness that afflicted the late Pope that inexplicably disappeared two months after John Paul had died.

Not cancer...but Parkinson's is what the nun says she is cured of.

Is she on medication?  I can't imagine why she wouldn't be.

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#26 QueenTiye

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:51 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Apr 5 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

"Thou shalt have no false gods before me".  First Commandment.

If this person actually prayed *to* the pope (as opposed to God) then she is guilty of violating that commandment and the Catholic Church has no business canonizing someone who was substituted for God.

Lil


That seems unfair - how can Pope John Paul II be at fault for someone else's sin?  I bet a lot of saints have people praying to them instead of God...


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#27 Rhea

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:33 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Apr 5 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

View Posttrikay, on Apr 5 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 5 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Apr 6 2007, 01:27 AM, said:

From the beginning of the thread Scott, apparently someone claims they were healed of cancer after praying for John Paul II's intercession.

Cancer does go into remission at times, and it would appear to be trivially easy for his supporters to claim it was due to his miraculous influence. I mean, who needs actuall medical science when you have saints right?

I just realized after reading this post that this info is wrong...

Unless there is another case that I have not heard of....

Quote

Officials will study the case of Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, a 46-year-old French nun diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease the same illness that afflicted the late Pope that inexplicably disappeared two months after John Paul had died.

Not cancer...but Parkinson's is what the nun says she is cured of.

Is she on medication?  I can't imagine why she wouldn't be.

Sorry but I'll never buy this. There simply is no cure for Parkinson's. She was misdiagnosed or something.
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#28 Vapor Trails

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:35 PM

Just stopping by quickly...

View PostKosh, on Apr 5 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

http://www.catholic-...ts/pope0264.htm

I'm making a promise right here, not to rag on the church as a whole, and to keep this about the man, and not the people

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 04:19 AM

View PostRhea, on Apr 6 2007, 05:33 AM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Apr 5 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

View Posttrikay, on Apr 5 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 5 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

View PostAnastashia, on Apr 6 2007, 01:27 AM, said:

From the beginning of the thread Scott, apparently someone claims they were healed of cancer after praying for John Paul II's intercession.

Cancer does go into remission at times, and it would appear to be trivially easy for his supporters to claim it was due to his miraculous influence. I mean, who needs actuall medical science when you have saints right?

I just realized after reading this post that this info is wrong...

Unless there is another case that I have not heard of....

Quote

Officials will study the case of Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, a 46-year-old French nun diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease — the same illness that afflicted the late Pope — that inexplicably disappeared two months after John Paul had died.

Not cancer...but Parkinson's is what the nun says she is cured of.

Is she on medication?  I can't imagine why she wouldn't be.

Sorry but I'll never buy this. There simply is no cure for Parkinson's. She was misdiagnosed or something.


I'll add that there are two semi-related things I find virtually unbelievable about her story

1. She worked at a maternity hospital, had a degenerative disease, claims to have quite literally cured overnight two years ago and NO ONE SAID A THING? Even given that it was a hospital owned by the congregation, not one of the doctors, interns or hospital staff took a story of total recovery from Parkinsons to the scientific community, or for that matter to the media? I'm sorry, but remission for Parkinsons would be such a huge news-story I simply cannot believe someone who knew her wouldnt have told the story.

2. Monseigner Claude Feidt apparently held a year long investigation into the cure, in which he did consult with medical scientists on blood work, x-rays, neurologists etc. (even if not a single detail of those he contacted has been made public) and again, not one person took a story of a cure for Parkinsons to the media or the medical community? I'm sorry, but given how many people suffer from Parkinsons, a cure would be pretty damn near the top of the list of things that I imagine any doctor would want spread the word about as fast as possible.

Something about this feels off. Of course I imagine her 'diagnosis' was done by the congregation church as well.

Edited by Godeskian, 06 April 2007 - 04:20 AM.

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#30 QueenTiye

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 11:14 AM

Well - but you're not talking about a "cure." You're talking about a "miracle."  There is a difference - one is of interest to the medical community because it will help others, and the other can only be interesting to the medical community with hopes of debunking the claim.

If a "miracle" occurred - there is no guarantee that the same miracle will happen for someone else, even if they pray the same prayers.

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#31 Lover of Purple

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 11:23 AM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Apr 5 2007, 06:22 PM, said:

"Thou shalt have no false gods before me".  First Commandment.

If this person actually prayed *to* the pope (as opposed to God) then she is guilty of violating that commandment and the Catholic Church has no business canonizing someone who was substituted for God.

Lil

Bingo! Got it in one. :)

And I also believe that all believers are saints (as per the NT).

#32 G1223

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 12:06 PM

Ah that is not what the bible says. It says no other God before me.

No as to JPII as a saint. No.

There are problems the man refused to recognize that took place on his watch. The child molestations and the crack down on priests who spoke out against third world leaders who were little more than thugs.
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#33 Broph

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 02:37 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Apr 6 2007, 02:47 AM, said:

View PostDev F, on Apr 5 2007, 06:56 PM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Apr 5 2007, 08:22 PM, said:

"Thou shalt have no false gods before me".  First Commandment.

If this person actually prayed *to* the pope (as opposed to God) then she is guilty of violating that commandment and the Catholic Church has no business canonizing someone who was substituted for God.
Catholics pray for the saints to intercede on their behalf with God all the time. It's one of the big practical differences between them and the Protestants.

The Pope isn't a Saint.

Lil

The Pope is still a Divine Person.

Quote

Although God the Father is mentioned in this prayer as the one to whom we are to pray, it is not out of place to address our prayers to the other Divine persons. The special appeal to one does not exclude the others.

http://www.newadvent...then/12345b.htm

and before anyone asks, the Pope is considered to be divine

Quote

History of Papal titles

As mentioned above, the Pope's titles include: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, and Servant of the Servants of God.

The title "Vicar of Christ" refers to the Pope's divine commission. This title came into use in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Second Vatican Council confirmed the titles "Vicar of Christ" and "Successor of Peter".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

#34 Kosh

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 03:27 PM

That is the saddest part of all. The Bible clearly staes that God is a jealous God.

So If the Pope is already Devine, then why must he be granted Sainthood. Isn't he already a minor deity, and above the Saints?
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#35 Themis

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:32 PM

View PostRhys, on Apr 5 2007, 11:16 PM, said:

Well, I'm a Protestant, so I believe that all believers are "saints"...

Rhys


I used to be a protestant and I don't remember that.  Does that belog to a specific "brand" of protestants??

And if all believers are "saints," does that mean all believers are capable of performing miracles???  Isn't that what makes a saint a saint?  

Back on topic, seems like this move is trying to make sainthood a popularity contest.  Therefore, seems wrong.   If the Catholic church didn't have such a strong hold over so much of the world I'd say it didn't concern me, and it doesn't directly concern me, but it probably does indirectly.
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#36 Dev F

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:51 PM

View PostBroph, on Apr 6 2007, 02:37 PM, said:

The Pope is still a Divine Person.
:blink:

Uh, no, he most certainly is not. The suggestion that anyone but God is divine is extraordinarily heretical, even to Catholics.

Quote

Quote

Although God the Father is mentioned in this prayer as the one to whom we are to pray, it is not out of place to address our prayers to the other Divine persons. The special appeal to one does not exclude the others.

http://www.newadvent...then/12345b.htm
"Other Divine persons" refers to the other aspects of the Trinity -- God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Quote

and before anyone asks, the Pope is considered to be divine

Quote

History of Papal titles

As mentioned above, the Pope's titles include: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, and Servant of the Servants of God.

The title "Vicar of Christ" refers to the Pope's divine commission. This title came into use in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Second Vatican Council confirmed the titles "Vicar of Christ" and "Successor of Peter".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope
Nothing in this quote suggests that the pope is divine. "Divine commission" refers to his commission by the divine -- i.e., by Christ.

Edited by Dev F, 06 April 2007 - 05:56 PM.


#37 Rhys

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 11:54 PM

View PostThemis, on Apr 6 2007, 06:32 PM, said:

I used to be a protestant and I don't remember that.  Does that belog to a specific "brand" of protestants??

And if all believers are "saints," does that mean all believers are capable of performing miracles???  Isn't that what makes a saint a saint?

(According to the theology I learned in the Lutheran church...)

No, being a saint doesn't mean you can perform miracles, it means you're going to (or already in) heaven.  People can't perform miracles - God does.  He may perform them through people, but it's still God doing the work.  (In fact, He can go ahead and perform them through non-believers, if he wants.)

Now, we don't refer to a lot of people as "Saint So-and-so".  Mostly only in church names, and those (where they have a saint's name) are usually named for the apostles or Paul.  Mostly the doctrine on saints is taught as a response to the Catholic doctrine on saints, and doesn't come up much afterwards.

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#38 Broph

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 08:13 AM

View PostDev F, on Apr 6 2007, 10:51 PM, said:

Uh, no, he most certainly is not. The suggestion that anyone but God is divine is extraordinarily heretical, even to Catholics.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. Catholics pray to the saints all the time.

Quote

"Other Divine persons" refers to the other aspects of the Trinity -- God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a person and it clearly says persons as in "multiple". If they only meant God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, they would have said it; it's short and to the point. Saying persons clearly connotes that there are a number of persons to whom people can pray.

Quote

Nothing in this quote suggests that the pope is divine. "Divine commission" refers to his commission by the divine -- i.e., by Christ.

I'll disagree; on earth, the Pope is considered infallible.

#39 Dev F

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 08:42 AM

View PostBroph, on Apr 7 2007, 08:13 AM, said:

View PostDev F, on Apr 6 2007, 10:51 PM, said:

Uh, no, he most certainly is not. The suggestion that anyone but God is divine is extraordinarily heretical, even to Catholics.
I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. Catholics pray to the saints all the time.
Catholics pray for the saints to intercede with God on their behalf. Please explain to me how this implies that the saints themselves are divine.

Quote

Quote

"Other Divine persons" refers to the other aspects of the Trinity -- God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a person and it clearly says persons as in "multiple". If they only meant God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, they would have said it; it's short and to the point. Saying persons clearly connotes that there are a number of persons to whom people can pray.
:lol:

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are known as the Three Persons of God. It's extremely common Christian terminology -- it's even in the dang hymns ("Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty/God in Three Persons, blessed Trinity") -- and it's clearly what the article you quoted is talking about.

Do you realize how frutrating it is when you make extremely uninformed statements based on online articles you just Googled and only skimmed through, and then insist that they're accurate even when people who know what they're talking about try to correct you?

Quote

Quote

Nothing in this quote suggests that the pope is divine. "Divine commission" refers to his commission by the divine -- i.e., by Christ.
I'll disagree; on earth, the Pope is considered infallible.
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether he's considered divine.

#40 Godeskian

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 08:50 AM

View PostBroph, on Apr 7 2007, 02:13 PM, said:

I'll disagree; on earth, the Pope is considered infallible.

I thought he was only supposed to be infallible when he was speaking ex cathedra?

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