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Middle East Iran 2007 Nuclear Development

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#41 Godeskian

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:07 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

By taking their nuclear power away from them. They lost the right to it when they started working towards weapons building. And if they will not give it back destroy it. Not knock out a few key systems but vaporize it.

Taking it away from them? The nuclear power they have a legal right to have?

As I understand it, they are well short of the 5000+ centrifuges they'd need to produce weapons grade material. So untill they begin to expand their facility, something that is not easily hidden given the size of Natanz, how are they working towards weapons building?

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#42 G1223

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:09 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 11 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

View PostDWF, on Apr 11 2007, 03:00 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 11 2007, 09:52 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 02:37 PM, said:

It would be nice if Jesus had been gifted with 20th century morals. Espically in a late Iron age world. which was manpower intensive. Think of it if the tribal societies of the anceinet world had only our morality to guid them. Yeah right.

Which was actually my point. Jesus was a man of his time, like we all are.

Morals are moral and rights and wrong don't change with the times.

Nope, they don't.

Yes they do.

18th century thinking. A woman was too stupid to vote. To gentle a being to be a doctor or lawyer. Her right to speak in public was limited. If this were the 18th century I would be right to think and speak of women in that manner.

In the 30th century BCE I might have a wife and she ould run the household and direct servants or slaves to their actions and duties. I could treat her as chattle and in somep[laces she would have sit there and let it happen.

Things change and veiwpoints change with them. Sometimes for the better. But there were christians who owned slaves and beat them for whatever reason they saw fit. They thought of themselves as good people. As Moral people.

It was right for be to put to death a son who stole from me. It was right for me to kill the man who killed my parent. or simply made a rude comment towards a sister.  In that time it was considered the right thing. It was legal which also made it right.

We need to stop acting like we are the holders of morality that is Hubris.
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#43 G1223

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:11 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 11 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

By taking their nuclear power away from them. They lost the right to it when they started working towards weapons building. And if they will not give it back destroy it. Not knock out a few key systems but vaporize it.

Taking it away from them? The nuclear power they have a legal right to have?

As I understand it, they are well short of the 5000+ centrifuges they'd need to produce weapons grade material. So untill they begin to expand their facility, something that is not easily hidden given the size of Natanz, how are they working towards weapons building?

I will leave that to CJ to come up with the tech points.
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paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#44 Godeskian

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:11 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

We need to stop acting like we are the holders of morality that is Hubris.

I think moral relativism as you are describiing it is exceedingly dangerous. Because if what is moral and what is ethical can change on any one being's say so, then there is truly no morality we can all claim to hold to.

I don't believe that's true.

Edited by Godeskian, 11 April 2007 - 10:12 AM.

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#45 Godeskian

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:13 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 11 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 11 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

By taking their nuclear power away from them. They lost the right to it when they started working towards weapons building. And if they will not give it back destroy it. Not knock out a few key systems but vaporize it.

Taking it away from them? The nuclear power they have a legal right to have?

As I understand it, they are well short of the 5000+ centrifuges they'd need to produce weapons grade material. So untill they begin to expand their facility, something that is not easily hidden given the size of Natanz, how are they working towards weapons building?

I will leave that to CJ to come up with the tech points.

Fair enough, I'm not in any great rush for my answer. Another question for you then. You don't see any way in which Iran could have their own civilian nuclear industry, because it will always be underpinned with the fear that they'll use that technology to make weapons?

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#46 Kosh

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

Actually, Kosh, true Christians do not hate Muslums (or anyone). But you are right that some Christian groups don't get along, but those that truly follow Christ do. Remember that many people who claim to be Christians are not. Many Americans believe that just being born here makes them a Christian..go figure. Many people call themselves Christians and do not follow Christ. These people are not Christians. A good rule I use to tell is "Do they treat people and act like Jesus did?" Jesus went so far as to even ask God to forgive those that crucified him, that is not a sign of a person who hates

Put that way, it takes out about 95% of the people who claim to be Christains, including a couple of my sisters. Out of hundreds that I know, who claim to be Christains, three "Act Like Jesus" all the time.

One Pastor I know wont let people call him Revrand, because it sounds to much like Revered, and that is reserved for God.

Accually, two of the three are Pastors.
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#47 Captain Jack

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 05:10 PM

Just read in today's paper that 3000 centrifuges is enough to make nuclear weapons grade material.  And no, I didn't misread it.
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#48 tennyson

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 07:02 PM

On the slavery issue there is the concept of the Jubillee year in the Old Testament/ Torah.  

http://bible.ort.org...I...&CHAPTER=25

Quote

The Jubilee
25:8 You shall count seven sabbatical years, that is, seven times seven years. The period of the seven sabbatical cycles shall thus be 49 years.
25:9 Then, on the 10th day of the seventh month, you shall make a proclamation with the ram's horn. This proclamation with the ram's horn is thus to be made on Yom Kippur.
25:10 You shall sanctify the fiftieth year, declaring emancipation [of slaves] all over the world. This is your jubilee year, when each man shall return to his hereditary property and to his family.
25:11 The fiftieth year shall [also] be a jubilee to you insofar as you may not sow, harvest crops growing of their own accord, nor gather grapes from unpruned vines during that [year].
25:12 The jubilee shall thus be holy to you. You shall eat the crops from the field that [year].
25:13 In the jubilee year, every man shall return to his hereditary property.
25:14 Thus, when you buy or sell [land] to your neighbor, do not cheat one another.
25:15 You are buying [only] according to the number of years after the jubilee; [therefore], he is selling it to you for the number of years that [the land] will produce crops [until the next jubilee].
25:16 Since he is selling it to you for the number of crops, you must increase the price if it will be for many years, and decrease it if there are few.
25:17 You will then not be cheating one another. You shall fear your God, since it is I who am God your Lord.
25:18 Keep My decrees and safeguard My laws. If you keep them, you will live in the land securely.
25:19 The land will produce its fruit, and you will eat your fill, thus living securely in [the land].
25:20 In the seventh year, you might ask, 'What will we eat [in the jubilee year]? We have not planted nor have we harvested crops.'
25:21 I will direct My blessing to you in the sixth year, and [the land] will produce enough crops for three years.
25:22 You will therefore be eating your old crops when you plant [after] the eighth year. You will still be eating your old crops until the crops of the ninth year are ripe.
25:23 Since the land is Mine, no land shall be sold permanently. You are foreigners and resident aliens as far as I am concerned,
25:24 and therefore, there shall be time of redemption for all your hereditary lands.

It's been too long and my memory is too foggy for the New Testament right now.
By the way, I don't know where you live in the UK Godeskian but I've never run into such a concentration of people trying to convert me in what is known as a religous state in the US. I've had maybe a Mormon a year knock on my door in now close to 7 years at this apartment. Nor have I had anyone hand anything out to me in a long time and that was Buddhist derivative material.  
On the thread subject I've returned my book that detailed Natanz but from memory the facility has plenty of room for enough centrifuges to make a weapons cascade already. They just haven't all been installed yet. I see a truly aggressive inspection regime as the key to dealing with the fears of other nations as it did between the US and the Soviet Union. Strict verification of the workings of each others labs and numbers of nuclear weapons was key to maintaining peace. Here a similar regime of inspections would be needed at each nuclear facility as well as monitoring of materials entering the country that could be used in nuclear weapons manufacture. It's a bit more than say Japan or Canada has to deal with as NPT signatories but prior behavior is an issue here.
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#49 G1223

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 11:12 PM

View PostSpidey, on Apr 11 2007, 06:10 PM, said:

Just read in today's paper that 3000 centrifuges is enough to make nuclear weapons grade material.  And no, I didn't misread it.


SSSSssshhhh Iran is a peaceful nation which wants to live in the commonwealth of nations. Pay no attention to the last 30 years. I mean they only have said they want to destroy the Jewish State. Just give them a bit more time and ISrael will do what we are too ballesss to do.

That will cause the out cries that Israel should be punished for daring to defend it self.
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#50 offworlder

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 06:54 AM

I too read that they are in terms of the centrifuges or what all equip they need for weapons nuke capability, two years away from a bomb. But I also read in a piece in Foreign Policy that there is not a lot USA can do in this case, but more diplomacy; I think they said, we need think more in engaging and dialogue and less in mil terms with this one, based upon just what some US conservative sabre rattlers together with current state of USA mil could actually do. And that dialogue needs to be not only with Iran, but with EU too. And (how do I say this?) something about over time minimalizing those who are the hard drivers and somehow connect with the rest in Iran?
Since this all started Iran and Amed-a-the-man have been in the driver seat and they've always known it and that's why they do what they do and believe What Can Anyone do about it? The way they've moved and buried sites it's not practical to think in terms of surgical strikes that could knock out nuke sites; and then what Iran gov active responses?
and this talk of nuke the country in a more general way, killing a million or more, just galls me, knowing that the majority are plain folk not deserving such suffering and deaths. We need to find other ways, group ways internationally, of countering this. But still, he's running with the ball now and just what linebackers can there be to stall him?
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#51 G1223

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 07:53 AM

View Postoffworlder, on Apr 12 2007, 07:54 AM, said:

But I also read in a piece in Foreign Policy that there is not a lot USA can do in this case, but more diplomacy; I think they said, we need think more in engaging and dialogue and less in mil terms with this one, based upon just what some US conservative sabre rattlers together with current state of USA mil could actually do. And that dialogue needs to be not only with Iran, but with EU too. And (how do I say this?) something about over time minimalizing those who are the hard drivers and somehow connect with the rest in Iran?

So the yammerheads are saying please keep talking to them. That way Israel will do the job and we can condem them for their actions. Or maybe to fit in with Iran we should just nuke Israel.

How do you minimalize the guy who has the button? Oh talk him to deathna dnfind a common ground. I guess we could talk about the weather.

Get real.

After they get their bombs. Know the US and the Eu are going to be fumble fingers about doing anything.(Except make the old Keystone Cops look like a serious force to be dealt with.) Iran is going to keep pushing. It has funed terrorist organzations for going on 3 decades and hopes to destablize the region so it cna spread it's message.

So far their plan is working. They have little to fear from the west. We keep going on and on about  cann't we just get along. Maybe if we give you a few consessions you might please be a more peaceful nation. Meanwhile they keep going along thinking nothing is going to stop them. After all we are not going to actually use nuclear weapons to stop them. We will use talk and more talk and maybe just a little more talk to get them to see reason.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#52 SparkyCola

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 06:59 PM

Quote

vast majority of any social grouping are friendly welcoming people.

Uh..that hasn't been my experience at all. I tried out a number of societies at uni and left plenty because they knew each other already and were cliquey and uninclusive and incredibly unwelcoming. But again, anecdotal, and I totally hear you on that point so, enough said.

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I'm sure the silent majority of Christians are decent folk, and imo it's about time they stopped being silent and took back their religion from the nutjobs.

The silent majority are perfectly loud in their disapproval of such things. Do you honestly have Christian friends where you have said to them "Look at this pedophile priest" and they said "i'm sorry I couldn't comment" ? But the "silent majority" don't want to become ostentatious and loud, because part of Christianity is humility and doing charitable things without showing the whole world and not to judge others. I'm sorry if you think the loud ones get more attention paid to them than the quiet ones. Well, when people get tired of the loud ones, they might just turn around to their Christian friend and think to themselves "hang on, my friend is nothing like that person. why is that?"

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And that right there is one those things that I disagree with Jesus on. It should, in my opinion, be love thy neighbour and then loving God. By placing loving God first, by giving it primacy, all sorts of things become forgiveable because the command is to love God first and foremost, and then your neighbour.

Only if you decide that loving God means more than simply loving God.

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Evangelical Christians obviously disagree.

I'm sure. Doesn't change my point though. I disagree with them too.

Quote

I'd love to have a chance to debate the man face to face

Me too. I'd put in a good word for you, but there's no point. God already knows you're cool :cool:

As for slavery....

Did you know we have more slaves now than when slavery was legal?

If you went back 2000 years, and started telling people slavery was wrong outright, they'd think you were nuts, and dismiss all you said. Jesus understood that as humans, we would eventually come to change our hearts on the matter of slavery - without his explicit word on it - but far from saying slavery is right, Jesus talks about God loving everyone equally, the notion of equality as a first step towards condemning slavery instead of saying it outright, which, for people who found the idea of equality mindblowing- would be just a little too much.

My friend, I'm sure this is where your respect for me drops below the zero line, but I have faith that God knew what he was doing. Of course, God could give us all the answers straight up if he wanted to. But it means more if we come to understand them ourselves. It's like him doing our homework. We could copy it down, but we'd never truly understand it, so what's the point? Where's the real progress?

Quote

Jesus was a man of his time, like we all are.

Actually, I'm a woman of my time :whistle:

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#53 Godeskian

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 03:50 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Apr 13 2007, 12:59 AM, said:

Uh..that hasn't been my experience at all. I tried out a number of societies at uni and left plenty because they knew each other already and were cliquey and uninclusive and incredibly unwelcoming. But again, anecdotal, and I totally hear you on that point so, enough said.

Different experiences I suppose. When I joined the griffin players I was one of only two new people. Everyone else had done at least one or two shows together, some as many as five or six, but rather than excluding me, they went out of their way to get me involved in things.

I find myself wishing you'd had better luck with the university societies. Do you mean things like fraternities?

Quote

The silent majority are perfectly loud in their disapproval of such things.

And yet, nothing much has really changed since the scandal first became public knowledge.

Quote

Do you honestly have Christian friends where you have said to them "Look at this pedophile priest" and they said "i'm sorry I couldn't comment" ?

Despite how I might come across here on EI, i really don't go up to my Christian friends and say 'now about them pedophile priests, how's that working out for you.'

That's a tad obnoxious, even for me. :)

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I'm sorry if you think the loud ones get more attention paid to them than the quiet ones. Well, when people get tired of the loud ones, they might just turn around to their Christian friend and think to themselves "hang on, my friend is nothing like that person. why is that?"

Maybe, actually I'll go so far as to say that I hope you're right. I don't think you are mind you, as I think vastly more people take their opinions from whomever speaks loudest, but I hope you're right.

Quote

Only if you decide that loving God means more than simply loving God.

History is replete with examples of people deciding that to love God, they have to hurt their fellow man. You probably don't claim them as Christians, but they certainly did consider themselves Christians.

Quote

Me too. I'd put in a good word for you, but there's no point. God already knows you're cool :cool:

And see, that's the thing. If God is really up there, I'd be actually rather dissapointed to find he's a jealous, vain, angry God. And if I was right that he's none of those things, then I don't think he'd really mind that I never converted as long as I lived a good life. I know, it's heretical from the viewpoint of having to repent before death, but again I can live with that, especially as I don't believe he's up there to begin with.

Quote

Did you know we have more slaves now than when slavery was legal?

Wouldn't surprise me.

Quote

but far from saying slavery is right, Jesus talks about God loving everyone equally, the notion of equality as a first step towards condemning slavery instead of saying it outright, which, for people who found the idea of equality mindblowing- would be just a little too much.

I'm sorry, but the Bible finds time to condemn shellfish, masturbation and working on sundays, but it can't find one word to condemn the enslavement of your fellow man?

Quote

My friend, I'm sure this is where your respect for me drops below the zero line, but I have faith that God knew what he was doing.

If you think that will make me respect you less, then you are sorely mistaken. I may not agree with you, but that doesn't mean I don't respect you.

Quote

Actually, I'm a woman of my time :whistle:

:lol: Point taken, consider my statement suitably amended

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#54 DWF

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 05:16 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 13 2007, 04:50 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but the Bible finds time to condemn shellfish, masturbation and working on sundays, but it can't find one word to condemn the enslavement of your fellow man?

You keep confusing the old and the new Testaments, you're also mixing up the laws with the commandments, Jesus came to give up new commandments and a new covenant with God.
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#55 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 09:07 AM

Quote

I find myself wishing you'd had better luck with the university societies. Do you mean things like fraternities?

fraternities? I should have said "union societies" I suppose. *looks up fraternity*

Finds definition: "a social club for male undergraduates"

...hey!! ...still, I thought fraternities and sororities were an American thing? Do we have 'em over here too? Our uni doesn't. I meant the societies for everything under the sun from African drumming to zoological studies societies that are run by the Student Union. Unfortunately I mostly don't have the time, being a Bsc student rather than a Ba student (seriously though...music students have ONE lecture a week...and it's optional!! :eek2: they are starting to complain about it.)

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And yet, nothing much has really changed since the scandal first became public knowledge.

To be honest, I don't feel I have to answer for this - as it's a problem within the Catholic church which demands priests be celibate. Now, clearly I don't agree with Catholic values, or else I would *be* Catholic, and I'm not. I don't think it's my place to defend the Catholic church, and I don't know what they have done or what high catholic church officials have said about it, though I'm sure they have talked about it.

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You probably don't claim them as Christians, but they certainly did consider themselves Christians.

It's not about how I view them - but about how God views them. in the Bible it says those who say they are Christian but don't love their neighbours are not Christians, simple as that. I'm sure there are plenty of insane people who say they are sane. Does that mean they are?

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And if I was right that he's none of those things, then I don't think he'd really mind that I never converted as long as I lived a good life.

Well, I personally believe a similar sort of thing. I think the only way someone like you could fail to gain access to heaven would be if you went up there and God said "Ok. So...NOW do you believe in me?" And you were to say something like "No. I still want to have absolutely nothing to do with you" and God would say ":( *sigh* Ok. Shame, you lived a good life."

Quote

That's a tad obnoxious, even for me

I meant that I'm sure they speak out against it in your discussions about it, if you talk to them about things in the news. I ask my Catholic friend about this kind of stuff all the time, she's happy to discuss it.

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#56 Godeskian

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 10:27 AM

View PostDWF, on Apr 13 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 13 2007, 04:50 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but the Bible finds time to condemn shellfish, masturbation and working on sundays, but it can't find one word to condemn the enslavement of your fellow man?

You keep confusing the old and the new Testaments, you're also mixing up the laws with the commandments, Jesus came to give up new commandments and a new covenant with God.

Not the impression I got

Quote

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.  (Matthew 5:17-18)"

And I'm sorry, but I don't accept the artificial distinction between laws and commandments. Both are edicts provided by God which we are supposed to obey.

Edited by Godeskian, 13 April 2007 - 10:36 AM.

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#57 Godeskian

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 10:35 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Apr 13 2007, 03:07 PM, said:

...hey!! ...still, I thought fraternities and sororities were an American thing?

I don't know, I never went to uni. It's just the only word I know for clubs on a university campus

Quote

To be honest, I don't feel I have to answer for this - as it's a problem within the Catholic church which demands priests be celibate. Now, clearly I don't agree with Catholic values, or else I would *be* Catholic, and I'm not. I don't think it's my place to defend the Catholic church, and I don't know what they have done or what high catholic church officials have said about it, though I'm sure they have talked about it.

Fair enough

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I'm sure there are plenty of insane people who say they are sane. Does that mean they are?

I don't think I've ever been insane, so I really can't speak to that. But I take your point

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Well, I personally believe a similar sort of thing. I think the only way someone like you could fail to gain access to heaven would be if you went up there and God said "Ok. So...NOW do you believe in me?" And you were to say something like "No. I still want to have absolutely nothing to do with you" and God would say ":( *sigh* Ok. Shame, you lived a good life."

heh, please note that 'No, I still want to have nothing to do with you' isn't an answer to the question of whether he exists. If I get to heaven and God is there then I'll believe, because I'll havewhat i'll consider to be fairly incontrivertable evidence for that. The question of whether I want to throw my support behind him is a very different question.

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I meant that I'm sure they speak out against it in your discussions about it, if you talk to them about things in the news. I ask my Catholic friend about this kind of stuff all the time, she's happy to discuss it.

Uhm, the vast majority of my social contacts are atheist, agnostic or ignostic (that last is where you don't know, but more importantly, you consider the issue so useless to the day to day goings of life, for it to be virtually irrelevant)

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The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#58 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 11:10 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 9 2007, 07:35 PM, said:

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Apr 9 2007, 11:55 PM, said:

Your statement fails to explain why the two greatest mass murders of the 20th Century were communism and fascism political ideologies rather then religious .  Religion isn't the problem and someone who claims that is blinded by their own bigotry.  The problem is the human tendency to take any ideology to the point that they are willing to kill other human beings.  Need I remind you the good communists who  killed so many in the USSR, China, and Cambodia were a bunch of good godless atheists?

I actually agree with you, but would like to clarify that they didn't commit their crimes in the name of Atheism, they committed their crimes in the names of Communism and fascism.
You are very wrong there.  One of the central tenets of communism was radical atheism.   People in those regimes were targeted all the time because they were people of religion.  Churches in the Soviet Union were in many cases turned into museums of atheism just for a mild case with the congregations being harassed or arrested.  In other cases many people were killed because they didn't agree with the Atheism of the regime.  The fact is that Atheism and Religion both have blood on their hands as ideology because crimes were committed in their name.  I find that most reasonable people of religion are willing to admit that crimes were committed in the name of their religion at one point.  I've yet to meet an atheists who was willing to make the same admission about Atheism event though many maintain a holier than thou attitude about the crimes committed in the name of religion.
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#59 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 11:16 AM

View PostKosh, on Apr 10 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

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Religion isn't the problem and someone who claims that is blinded by their own bigotry.

Not believeing in God does not make me a Bigot.

Not but carrying it to the excess that a person thinks religion should be eliminate could very well make a person a bigot.  Just like a religious person believing atheism should be eliminated would make them a equal bigot.  Any ideology in excess can turn a person into a bigot.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#60 Godeskian

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 11:51 AM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Apr 13 2007, 05:10 PM, said:

You are very wrong there.  One of the central tenets of communism was radical atheism.   People in those regimes were targeted all the time because they were people of religion.  Churches in the Soviet Union were in many cases turned into museums of atheism just for a mild case with the congregations being harassed or arrested.  In other cases many people were killed because they didn't agree with the Atheism of the regime.  The fact is that Atheism and Religion both have blood on their hands as ideology because crimes were committed in their name.  I find that most reasonable people of religion are willing to admit that crimes were committed in the name of their religion at one point.  I've yet to meet an atheists who was willing to make the same admission about Atheism event though many maintain a holier than thou attitude about the crimes committed in the name of religion.

But Atheism doesn't espouse anything. Atheism justs says, 'no divine being' It espouses no social codes, no ethical standpoints or moral values. It gives no laws to obey or edicts to uphold. It gives no justification for wars or atrocities or good behaviour or altruism. It just says 'no god'. Just like theism says 'there is a god' but doesn't espouse anything else. The thing that turns theism into religion is when other things get attached to it.

Sure, communism may have had radical as one of it's tenets, just like Christianity has theism as one of it's tenets, after all, Christianity assumes there is a God. But that's a function of Christianity, not of theism.

Everything you are blaming atheism for, is a function of what is ATTACHED to atheism, not of atheism itself.

Edited by Godeskian, 13 April 2007 - 11:54 AM.

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The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.




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