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And Iran goes nuclear

Middle East Iran 2007 Nuclear Development

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#61 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 01:06 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 13 2007, 12:51 PM, said:

Everything you are blaming atheism for, is a function of what is ATTACHED to atheism, not of atheism itself.

Which pretty much sounds like a hollow excuse so atheists can claim "my ideology never killed anyone but look at the terrible things committed in the name of religion so see how evil religion is and how atheists have never done anything evil in the name of their belief."

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Gode: It just says 'no god'. Just like theism says 'there is a god' but doesn't espouse anything else. The thing that turns theism into religion is when other things get attached to it.
And some atheists took "there is no god" to mean we should kill, arrest, or eliminate the people who believe in religion so no one would believe in god.  Any way that you prefer to spin it to keep your conscious clear the fact that remains that people killed other people in the name of atheism.  It may not be what you view atheism but then many people don't believe religion means we should kill the godless heathens or those who don't agree with us.  Yet atheists constantly point to the crimes committed under a twisted view of religion and then dry to dodge the fact that people committed crimes under a twisted view of atheism when they are called on the carpet over it.
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#62 Godeskian

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 01:16 PM

You know what CJ, forget it.

You don't want to hear it anyway.

Edited by Godeskian, 13 April 2007 - 01:16 PM.

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#63 Bobby

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 12 2007, 07:53 AM, said:

View Postoffworlder, on Apr 12 2007, 07:54 AM, said:

But I also read in a piece in Foreign Policy that there is not a lot USA can do in this case, but more diplomacy; I think they said, we need think more in engaging and dialogue and less in mil terms with this one, based upon just what some US conservative sabre rattlers together with current state of USA mil could actually do. And that dialogue needs to be not only with Iran, but with EU too. And (how do I say this?) something about over time minimalizing those who are the hard drivers and somehow connect with the rest in Iran?

So the yammerheads are saying please keep talking to them. That way Israel will do the job and we can condem them for their actions. Or maybe to fit in with Iran we should just nuke Israel.

How do you minimalize the guy who has the button? Oh talk him to deathna dnfind a common ground. I guess we could talk about the weather.

Get real.

After they get their bombs. Know the US and the Eu are going to be fumble fingers about doing anything.(Except make the old Keystone Cops look like a serious force to be dealt with.) Iran is going to keep pushing. It has funed terrorist organzations for going on 3 decades and hopes to destablize the region so it cna spread it's message.

So far their plan is working. They have little to fear from the west. We keep going on and on about  cann't we just get along. Maybe if we give you a few consessions you might please be a more peaceful nation. Meanwhile they keep going along thinking nothing is going to stop them. After all we are not going to actually use nuclear weapons to stop them. We will use talk and more talk and maybe just a little more talk to get them to see reason.

Who died and made us God?

#64 Kosh

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 04:09 PM

View PostDWF, on Apr 13 2007, 06:16 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 13 2007, 04:50 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but the Bible finds time to condemn shellfish, masturbation and working on sundays, but it can't find one word to condemn the enslavement of your fellow man?

You keep confusing the old and the new Testaments, you're also mixing up the laws with the commandments, Jesus came to give up new commandments and a new covenant with God.


They are not confusing it, just comparing.






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it to keep your conscious clear the fact that remains that people killed other people in the name of atheism.

I'd put my money on ten times as many people being murdered in the name of God, then any atheism. Also there is a lot of evedence that the Pope during WWII knew about the fate of Jews in Germany, and did nothing. Christainity has far more blood on it's collective hands then any atheists.





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Not but carrying it to the excess that a person thinks religion should be eliminate could very well make a person a bigot. Just like a religious person believing atheism should be eliminated would make them a equal bigot. Any ideology in excess can turn a person into a bigot.

Bigot:Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Two of my closest friends are christains, of the type that LOP described, and my sister the Pastor, and I are very close, and I got to introduce her to one of them while she was visiting this week. They talked Bible for about 40 minutes. It was interesting.


No, i'm sorry, but believeing that the world would be better off without religion doesn't make one a bigot. The words intolerantly and obstinately come into play, like the Reverand Jesse Jackson and his infamuos Hymey remarks. There's some intolerance for you.

The extreamist christains, l;ike the Phelps group.
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#65 G1223

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 04:26 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on Apr 13 2007, 05:01 PM, said:

Who died and made us God?

No one. But rather than try to apeal to man's better nature perpase we need to simply appeal to common interest.

Do you think Iran wants the Bomb?

Do you think that is a bad idea?

If all the talking taking place is going to is allow Iran to get the bomb why are we still talking?

I see that Iran will get the bomb because no one will back up the idea of stopping them. And these same people will wring their hands in shock and horror when Iran uses the bomb. After all who is going to punish them?

The west? Well maybe after the meeting to set a schedual to discuss what color the tablecloth should be for the meeting to discuss Iran's getting the bomb let alone them using it.

The East? LOL China will likely give a quick thumbs up as this will keep the west busy.

So to answer your question in better detail.

No one made us God. But if we do not do it we will have a pile of bodies here or in one of allies nations. And we will still see people try to BS us with "Give peace a chance"
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#66 tennyson

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 05:34 PM

The Soviet Union over 50 million dead under Stalin alone.
The People's Republic of China over 60 million dead under Mao alone.
Cambodia 1.8 million dead under the Khymer Rouge.
Over 111.8 million dead.
Even the sum totality of every Crusade, wars of religion like the 30 Years War in Europe, even the most liberal estimates for population loss in the New World after its encounter with Europe, all other European/native contact, every inquisition and the various Protestant /Catholic violence of the past century doesn't add up to those kind of numbers and some of those things aren't examples of religion but of the hand of greed and politics and plague that the people involved had no clue about.
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#67 DWF

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 05:41 PM

View PostKosh, on Apr 13 2007, 05:09 PM, said:

I'd put my money on ten times as many people being murdered in the name of God, then any atheism. Also there is a lot of evedence that the Pope during WWII knew about the fate of Jews in Germany, and did nothing. Christainity has far more blood on it's collective hands then any atheists.

What could that Pope do about it? They had no real army except for the Swedish guards and they really aren't an army just a peacekeeping force.
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#68 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 12:03 AM

He could have directed those priest who were giving shelter to a few jews to do so with the blessing and voice of the church. He could have directed his churches to open their doors openly to shelter jews. He could have told the world what was going on.
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#69 offworlder

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 03:57 AM

I see that Iran will get the bomb because no one will back up the idea of stopping them. And these same people will wring their hands in shock and horror when Iran uses the bomb. After all who is going to punish them?
The west? Well maybe after the meeting to set a schedual to discuss what color the tablecloth should be for the meeting to discuss Iran's getting the bomb let alone them using it.


so exactly what is involved here?: from what I've heard, there is no one spot, and accessible, for 'stopping' or hitting; so hitting them and making a success of it is a difficult or impossible proposition; so exactly what would you do if you could do, if you are the one walking into the situation room with the combat information/action center all dim with fifty screens showing stuff the rest of us can't see, and you get to give orders ?

they are making, not getting, whatever they want to make, in underground centers spread out, so can anyone anywhere 'stop them getting the bomb'? or is this all beyond that now, so we must just let them know what's involved in the new world of capabilities and diplomacies?
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#70 DWF

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:57 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 14 2007, 01:03 AM, said:

He could have directed those priest who were giving shelter to a few jews to do so with the blessing and voice of the church. He could have directed his churches to open their doors openly to shelter jews. He could have told the world what was going on.

Don't you think Churchhill and FRD already knew about the deat camps? And Catholics were targets of the Nazis as well.
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#71 Spectacles

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 09:03 AM

Background on the pope during WWII:

http://www.jewishvir...itism/pius.html
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#72 DWF

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 09:31 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 14 2007, 10:03 AM, said:

Background on the pope during WWII:

http://www.jewishvir...itism/pius.html

I think this proved my point.

Quote

The Pope's reaction to the Holocaust was complex and inconsistent. At times, he tried to help the Jews and was successful. But these successes only highlight the amount of influence he might have had, if he not chosen to remain silent on so many other occasions. No one knows for sure the motives behind Pius XII's actions, or lack thereof, since the Vatican archives have only been fully opened to select researchers. Historians offer many reasons why Pope Pius XII was not a stronger public advocate for the Jews: A fear of Nazi reprisals, a feeling that public speech would have no effect and might harm the Jews, the idea that private intervention could accomplish more, the anxiety that acting against the German government could provoke a schism among German Catholics, the church's traditional role of being politically neutral and the fear of the growth of communism were the Nazis to be defeated. Whatever his motivation, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Pope, like so many others in positions of power and influence, could have done more to save the Jews.

It should be noted that others did know about the death camps and did nothing at the time either.

http://en.wikipedia....the_killings.3F

Quote

Churchill, who was privy to intelligence reports derived from decoded German transmissions, first began mentioning "mass killings" in public at the same time. In the summer of 1942, a Jewish labor organization (the Bund) got word to London that 700,000 Polish Jews had already died, and the BBC took the story seriously, though the United States State Department did not. In the United States, in November of 1942, a telegram from Europe which contained word about Hitler's plans was released by Stephen Wise of the World Jewish Congress, after a long wait for permission from the government. This led to attempts by Jewish organizations to put Roosevelt under pressure to act on behalf of the European Jews, many of whom had tried in vain to enter either Britain or the U.S.

On December 17, 1942, however, after receiving a detailed eyewitness account from Jan Karski, the Allies issued a formal declaration confirming and condemning Nazi extermination policy toward the Jews. The US State Department was aware of the use and the location of the gas chambers of extermination camps, but refused pleas to bomb them out of operation.

And nothing was said by anybody about the actions of the Japanese during WWII.
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#73 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 11:42 AM

View PostDWF, on Apr 14 2007, 08:57 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 14 2007, 01:03 AM, said:

He could have directed those priest who were giving shelter to a few jews to do so with the blessing and voice of the church. He could have directed his churches to open their doors openly to shelter jews. He could have told the world what was going on.

Don't you think Churchhill and FRD already knew about the deat camps? And Catholics were targets of the Nazis as well.


Not as many catholicss as you might think. As to what and when the leadership knew about the camps has been a topic of many discussions.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#74 G1223

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 11:44 AM

View PostDWF, on Apr 14 2007, 10:31 AM, said:

And nothing was said by anybody about the actions of the Japanese during WWII.

Yes and such is the mistake of time. It was these actions that always left me and a few others thinking Hirohito was a war criminal.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



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