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A double-standard when it comes to sleeper cells

Politics 2007 Theocracy Regent University

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#21 Spectacles

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 06:25 PM

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G: But the left needs to demonize christians so they can stir up fear . Speaking of evil cabels comming from certain colleges Has anyone checked on the hold Harvard has in politics. I mean during the golden age of Camelot were not the famed Kennedy Whiz Kids from Good old Harvard. But wait only Republicans are evil. I keep forgetting that sticking point.

G, do you really have no problems with people who want to tear down the separation between church and state--just as long as they vote Republican?
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#22 G1223

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 06:34 PM

I have no problems with people who claim the world is flat. Or that the moon landings were filmed at Disney. It is never going to fly.
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#23 Sinister Dexter

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 06:40 PM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Apr 9 2007, 11:56 PM, said:

on the list of things I'm worried about, fundamentalist Christians don't rank very highly.
Live through an IRA bombing campaign and say that: Christians can be just as fundamentalist as anyone.


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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 08:46 PM

The difference between the religious radicals in this country (and I firmly believe Ashcroft is among them) and the guys in the Middle East is that in this country we DO have an Establishment Clause and despite what some might say about the political influence of religious zealots in this country it is so so SOOOOOOOOOO not what's going on elsewhere.  We are not having massive pogroms based on religion here.  People get twitchy about damned NATIVITY scenes for crying out loud.  Am I concerned about separation of church and state?  Sure but that's because I believe that this country needs to remain vigilant about folks like Ashcroft running things and making their personal religious beliefs into political policy.  And yeah I see religious influences all over the place but it ain't no way no how comparable to the Middle East.  It's just not.

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#25 Hibblette

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 09:01 PM

Who'd have ever thought we would have invaded a country based on lies-and the majority of us would have believed it?

WE did though.

Who would have thought that the appointment of DoA's would bypass the check and balance of our established government-but it did through the Homeland Security Act.

Who would have thought that habeas corpus would have been jeopardized?  Remember that?
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#26 Cait

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:44 PM

View PostHibblette, on Apr 9 2007, 07:01 PM, said:

Who'd have ever thought we would have invaded a country based on lies-and the majority of us would have believed it?

WE did though.

Who would have thought that the appointment of DoA's would bypass the check and balance of our established government-but it did through the Homeland Security Act.

Who would have thought that habeas corpus would have been jeopardized?  Remember that?


See I agree here.  I don't like being some kind of alarmist.  I've been vocal and critical of others [in the past] who exaggerated the "danger".

But... [oh come on now you knew it was coming...]

It's precisely because we've had all these things happen, that we at least need to be vigilant and check it out.  If this Justice thing had happened in a vacuum and we had no other 'issues' with the administration, it would have faded into the left blogsphere never to be heard of again unless you went looking for lunatics.

But it didn't happen in a vacuum.

We have FEMA outed for being completely incompetent and unprepared for Katrina.  FEMA was run by another crony of Bush.

We have the DoD conducting a  military action that despite the Generals best advice has been bungled from day one.

We have a Secretary of State who does what exactly?  I have no clue because diplomacy doesn't exist in this administration.

Is it such a leap to wonder if all these Bush cronies at DoJ can actually prosecute a case  fairly?  

Come on, above and apart from partisan politics, aren't any of you wondering just how far the incompetence and cronyism actually reaches?  Isn't anyone just a little [just a little] concerned that it's not the appointees we're worried about [they'll be gone with the next administration], it is the relaxed hiring practices of the career Justice attorneys.  They'll be there forever.  No new administration is going to be able to weed them out.  They're  civil servants now.

Is there a department that does function competently in this Administration?  We're honestly not supposed to get concerned when we find out Justice has been stacked with right wing fundies?  After all we've seen in the past 6 years?

We'd be stupid not to ask the questions, and if I'm certain of anything about this Administration it is this.. Ask the hard questions and ask them often.  Keep them answering for their actions and just maybe they will get a clue and govern.

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#27 Hibblette

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 11:04 PM

There is an issue that is definitly kept at bay by the "Christian Right" and that is Stem Cell research.

If we didn't have these loud mouth supposed christians (in my opinion...) then we would be way ahead in the research and knowledge that we need in this field.  You can better believe these Lawyers we've got now in these positions are not going to even look at it.

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We have a Secretary of State who does what exactly? I have no clue because diplomacy doesn't exist in this administration.

Totally agree here.  This is why they got upset at Pelosi for talking with the Syrians.  She was doing the very thing that the Secretary of State should have been doing at least one and a half years ago.
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#28 Palisades

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 09:05 AM

I agree with the posters who have said that the Fundamentalists haven't won a single major victory...yet (except stem cell research and teaching so-called Intelligent Design). However, as any investor will tell you, past performance is no guarantee of future performance...especially when the situation changes. According to this article, "in 2001, the Bush administration picked the dean of Regent's government school, Kay Coles James , to be the director of the Office of Personnel Management -- essentially the head of human resources for the executive branch." Since then the Fundamentalists have been maneuvering their pieces into powerful positions, and Specs' posts give a glimpse of some of the harm they might inflict. The Fundamentalists' stock seems poised to rise -- through market manipulation. At the very least, this bears close watching IMO.

Edited by Solar Wind, 10 April 2007 - 09:11 AM.

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#29 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 09:24 AM

Props to ya, G.   Though keeping in mind demons like Sideshow Bob and Mr. Burns were Yalie men.  ;)

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#30 D.Rabbit

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 09:30 AM

Gets out binoculars, microscope and pirates a feed to the Hubble, you bet these folks need to be kept under surveillance, they have cast us into the dark ages for over 2,000 years with their twisted fairy tales. Having them back in the drivers seat again will do absolutely nothing to further our evolution as a species. I still remember the humiliation they put me through because I refused to bow my head and say the Lords' Prayer in my public school back in the 70's.

They are the Borg trying to turn us all into replicas of themselves. I like you Zwolf, find them deluded and even if they have lost some ground in the battle, they are obviously regrouping and it's imperative to find ways to infiltrate their ranks as well as use tactical actions to foil their plot for world domination.
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#31 Zwolf

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 10:00 AM

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I also hope we can refrain from religion bashing in this thread

Definitely.  There's a difference between religion and fanatical behavior.  You can have one without the other.  In this case, the fanatics are religious... but, that doesn't reflect on the religion as a whole.  Even whough I don't agree, I try to assume that religious (regardless of which religion it may be) people have good intentions in what they're doing.  Only when things turn sinister do red flags jump up for me.  No slight at religion as a whole is intended.

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Name one major battle that the religious fundamentalist have won that has a daily impact on everyday Americans?

I can name a lot of things locally.  My town continually flirts with "blue laws," meaning you can't buy a lot of things on Sunday.  These things include... books.  Or magazines.  And I'm not talking porn, I'm talking anything - Sports Illustrated, TIME, U.S. News, you name it.  Porn is just about illegal in my town, anyway.  You can't find a Playboy if you wanted one.   You just about can't get a job here unless you fake having a religion.  You can wear any religious tee-shirt you want, but if I wear a Black Sabbath shirt, I'm often gonna get a fight.  It may just be local, but the religious people have a lot more rights than I do, whether that be legal or not.

But part of my concern here is stopping the snowball while it's still nearer the top of the hill.  I'm sure that at some point in their history, the Muslims looked at the crazy fundamentalist extremist faction and said, "Ah, they don't have any power, they just make a lot of noise, let's ignore them"... and we see where that's led.   These radical fundamentalists know they're not impacting the lives of average Americans to the degree they'd like, and they resent it... which is why they're trying to do something about it, with these "sleeper cells" in government.

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I, for one, will never forget the day when graduates of Regent University crashed an airplane into a skyscraper.

They won't need to... they're working on other ways.  Don't you think that Bin Laden would send his guys to work inside our government instead, if he had any hope of getting away with that?  That'd be more effective.  Luckily, it's pretty hard for him to do that.  It's much easier for his idealogical brother Pat Robertson, though.

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Let's be realistic here: The power of fundamentalist Christians is extremely limited.

Living in the Bible belt, I have to disagree with that a little.  Nationwide, you're probably right, but down here I'm pretty much in occupied territory.  They're not all radical, but there are enough that you have to watch yourself.


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Let's count the ways:

These are all good points, and I'm not trying to debunk any of 'em, really, but I do have some comments... :)


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-- Let's start with the DoJ, shall we? According to wikipedia, the DoJ alone employs over 112,500 people. 150 of those are graduates of Regent. EVERYBODY PANIC!! 0.1% of DoJ employees went to a fundamentalist Christian law school, which means that the 0.1% may or may not be fundamentalist! I'm hard-pressed to find this alarming. [Source of employment numbers: http://en.wikipedia....ment_of_Justice ]

Good point... but, like I said, the time to stop the snowball is when it's still at the top of the hill.  There were only 19 hijackers in a nation of millions, and they still had an impact.  These guys are getting these jobs not because they want to do the job, but because they want to weild influence.  And there's 150 now, but it's not likely to stop at that.  

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[-- Homosexuality? Legal in every state, thanks to Lawrence v. Texas (and, before that, it was almost never enforced anyway). Currently, they're trying to maintain the status quo by preventing gays from getting married. While they've had some temporary success, it appears to be a losing battle.

True, but sodomy laws were repealled only 4 years ago, in 2003.  So it hasn't been legal for long.  And some ridiculous things (not necessarily gay, but of a sexual nature) are still illegal, such as the infamous Mississippi dildo bust.   Doesn't affect me 'cuz I don't buy sex toys, but still... what business is it of anybody's?  

Part of the reason these guys are trying to worm into the goverment is because they want there to be more ridiculous laws like that.  They want to make more things illegal.  Like the terrorists, they hate us for our freedom.


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-- Abortion? All they can do is nibble around the edges. Roe V. Wade is part of that, but abortion is also popular. The recent anti-abortion initiative in South Dakota-- South Dakota!-- failed. The related area of birth control is ground they've basically ceded.

I don't think Roe V. Wade will ever be overturned, because the Republicans have too big of a carrot with that... they can motivate people to show up to vote in hopes that it will be overturned.  Once it's settled, no more carrot, and no more voter turnout.  So, they don't want a victory there, just a long protracted battle that remains useful.  The legislative sleeper cells, though, don't see it that way.

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-- Divorce? I think even they have given up this fight.

Heck no, they have a huge divorce rate, they don't want that made illegal.  If you ever want to shut one of 'em's "gay marriage would ruin the sanctity of marriage" argument up, just tell 'em that so does divorce, and watch 'em backpedal...

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-- Religious displays in public? It's impossible to get so much as a cross up at Christmas without the ACLU honing in on you.

That one's goofy to me.  I'm a hardcore athiest, about as hardcore as you'll find, and I don't mind religious displays.  I just grit my teeth and deal with it.  Athiests that harp on that are goofs... they're just stirring people up and creating a more unified "enemy" by giving them some alarmist thing to rally around.


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-- "Family values" in primetime television? Also a lost battle.

There's plenty of family-friendly channels out there, so why that's even a battle is beyond me.  I can watch Cinemax and Comedy Central, they can watch Hallmark and the Family Channel and Disney, and everybody's happy.  Or should be.

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-- Prayer in schools? Not even remotely on the horizon.

This one is the most ridiculous of issues, anyway.  For one thing, it's not illegal and never was.  My school had devotionals piped in on the intercom every day.  And for another thing, since prayer is something that one can do silently in one's own head, without anyone else ever knowing, it's impossible to make prayer illegal anywhere.


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-- Women in the workforce? Accepted and mostly non-controversial. Note the rise of stay-at-home dads.

Yep, not an issue.

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-- Um...what am I forgetting here? Fundamentalists have lost virtually every major battle. The gap between the world they want and the world we have is rather large.

Like I said, I'm sure it was that way in the Islamic world once, too... so the time to stop it is while it's still small.  I'm not for curbing anyone's religious rights.  They're not a right that I personally use,  and I'd welcome a day when everyone decides to give up their old myths, but I still think they're important freedom.  But, all things are best in their places... for the good of both the government and the religion.  Morality isn't even morality anymore when it's legislated.  It's much more powerful to turn from sin when you have a choice.

These fundamentalists are gearing up new methods of attacks because they're not satisfied with their level of influence.  They're not dumb; they know how to work the system.  But their plans are entirely self-serving.  They don't mean any good for anyone except themselves and the people who conform to their rules.  And this is just the start of things.  

If they really had a good product, people would come to it without it being forced on them.  That hasn't worked, so they're finding other, sneakier methods to get the power they want.  It's the same way Bin Laden's people work, with the same goals.  They just have the luxury of access and a greater degree of trust, so they don't need to crash planes, luckily.  Their methods are less alarming, and thereby more effective, because people are content to shrug them off.  The goals are the same, though; theocracy.  And a Christian theocracy would not be any more beneficial to us than the Islamic theocracies have been to the Middle East.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#32 Zwolf

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 10:29 AM

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But the left needs to demonize christians so they can stir up fear .

Just to clarify, again, I'm not demonizing Christians.  Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, and their ilk are no more representative of Christians as a whole than Bin Laden or Zarquawi are of Muslims.  Most Christians are nice, well-meaning, friendly people who want to do good things and aren't trying to power-grab.  Most of 'em keep their religion and their politics separate.  This is far, far from being all Christians I'm concerned with.  There are loads of Christians in the government who I don't consider "sleeper cells."  In fact, you pretty much can't get elected in this country unless you profess some religion or other, so I'm not alarmed about that.  I'm alarmed about people planting themselves in legislative bodies with the express purpose of enacting an agenda.

And I'm not trying to stir up fear... I'm just trying to make people aware of what's going on, while it's still small.  I'm not being alarmist; you don't have to spread rumors, because these people will flat-out tell you their goals.  Ever see the movie Jesus Camp? All it is is a documentary following kids at a fundamentalist Christian summer camp, and it's scary enough without any hyperbole attached to it.  And it's not cherry-picked to make them look bad; the church approved it.  Here's a few quotes:

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Campers: I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag...

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Becky Fischer: It's no wonder, with that kind of intense training and discipling, that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I wanna see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth!

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Becky Fischer: I can go into a playground of kids that don't know anything about Christianity, lead them to the Lord in a matter of, just no time at all, and just moments later they can be seeing visions and hearing the voice of God, because they're so open. They are so usable in Christianity.

The agenda is clear.  I'm not saying anybody should freak out and panic, but just shrugging it off isn't a good idea, either.  It bears watching.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#33 Rhys

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 12:27 PM

View PostZwolf, on Apr 10 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

Ever see the movie Jesus Camp? All it is is a documentary following kids at a fundamentalist Christian summer camp, and it's scary enough without any hyperbole attached to it.  And it's not cherry-picked to make them look bad; the church approved it.  Here's a few quotes:

Well, depending what you mean by "cherry-picked" and (for that matter) "the church".  It's certainly an extremist end of the spectrum.  In fact, in our church, the pastor has used clips from the movie to lead off his recent sermon series, as discussion points for how far off the mark Christianity can get.

Just to give you an idea, one of the clips he used had someone talking about how great it was that the church had such a positive image in American society since Bush was elected.  :wacko:


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Becky Fischer: It's no wonder, with that kind of intense training and discipling, that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I wanna see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth!

Well, it would be great if they were out their "radically laying down their lives for the Gospel" following in Jesus' footsteps - feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, caring for the poor, and looking after those that need help.

And, for that matter, if you really look at Jesus' life, he wasn't big on organized religion, either (look at the conversations he had with the Pharisees, who were the "fundamentalists" of the time)...

Rhys
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#34 Lover of Purple

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:09 PM

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Just to clarify, again, I'm not demonizing Christians. Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, and their ilk are no more representative of Christians as a whole than Bin Laden or Zarquawi are of Muslims. Most Christians are nice, well-meaning, friendly people who want to do good things and aren't trying to power-grab. Most of 'em keep their religion and their politics separate. This is far, far from being all Christians I'm concerned with. There are loads of Christians in the government who I don't consider "sleeper cells." In fact, you pretty much can't get elected in this country unless you profess some religion or other, so I'm not alarmed about that. I'm alarmed about people planting themselves in legislative bodies with the express purpose of enacting an agenda.

Thank you for this ZWolf!!

And the thing is that most true followers of Christ feel the same way as non-Christians do about trying to control the government. I don't get involved in government outside of what I require to make an informed vote. My life is better spent learning how to be a true disciple of Christ and help those that want my input and help, not try to cram my beliefs down their throats. I understand why so many people have a hatrid of Christians (and I am NOT saying anyone who disagrees with Christians hates them, I mean the ones who really do hate). The so-called Christians (psuedoChristians if you will) do so much damage that the good that true followers of Christ do gets forgotten.

What does bother me, though, is that often what I see is non-Christians talking like Christians don't count because they don't believe what the speaker does. It kind of sounds like what these people accuse Chrsitians of, don't ya think? They don't believe in evolution so they are wrong..or stupid or ignorant, or...well, you get the picture. It goes both ways.

I am seeing how some think that Christians are either stupid or illogical or even ignorant because we believe in a God. I am neither as far as I'm concerned and I don't think non-believers are either. They argue that evolution is fact (and honsetly it can't be since it requires a belief in evolution to interpret the data as evolution), some believe creation is fact (and to be fair, it isn't either for the same reason that evolution isn't). Both require faith. One in science, one in the Word of God. I see no reason for one side to "look down" on the other side for their beliefs.

I

#35 Godeskian

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:12 PM

I'm actually a bit surprised at that last paragraph to be honest.

Edited by Godeskian, 10 April 2007 - 01:12 PM.

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#36 Lover of Purple

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:14 PM

View PostRhys, on Apr 10 2007, 10:27 AM, said:

Well, it would be great if they were out their "radically laying down their lives for the Gospel" following in Jesus' footsteps - feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, caring for the poor, and looking after those that need help.

Rhys

We agree on this. Following Jesus' footsteps can hurt no one. And contrary to what some think, not even the follower.

I would rather live a life dedicated to following Jesus, helping others and being happy and when I die to discover it was a lie than to live like there is no Christ and finding out I was wrong. :)

Now, back to your regular scheduled thread.

Oh, and in case anyone doesn't know I agree with the seperation of Church and State, but not in the exclusion.

#37 Zwolf

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:29 PM

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Well, depending what you mean by "cherry-picked" and (for that matter) "the church". It's certainly an extremist end of the spectrum. In fact, in our church, the pastor has used clips from the movie to lead off his recent sermon series, as discussion points for how far off the mark Christianity can get.

Yep... because you go to a sane, more-representative-of-most-Christians church.  The church in Jesus Camp is made of extremists, and they're not really a friend of mainstream religion, either.

I found this excerpt from an upcoming Rolling Stone article on some of these extremists, and they're quick to point out that they don't like most Christians:

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Luce is forty-five, his brown hair floppy, his lips pouty. On the screens above the stage, his green eyes blink furiously. "The devil hates us," he exhorts, "and we gotta be ready to fight and not be these passive little lukewarm, namby-pamby, kum-ba-yah, thumb-sucking babies that call themselves Christians. Jesus? He got mad!" Luce considers most evangelicals too soft, too ready to pass off as piety their preference for a bland suburban lifestyle. He hates what he sees as the weakness of "accepting" Christ, of "trusting" the Lord. "I want an attacking church!" he shouts, his normally smooth tones raw and desperate and alarming. He isn't just looking for followers -- he wants "stalkers" who'll bring a criminal passion to their pursuit of godliness.

Quote

Luce says only four percent of the U.S. will be Christian, by which he means "Bible-believing," when the current generation, the largest in American history, comes of age. To understand how a nation more actively Christian than at any point in its past is about to become some vast Sweden -- Luce's archetypical wasteland of guilt-free sex and socialized medicine -- you have to know that his antagonism toward secularism is dwarfed by a contempt bordering on hatred for what he dubs "cultural Christians." He considers them traitors.

These guys are definitely not to be confused with any regular church.  They're fanatics, and their rallying point just happens to be religion; it could have been anything else, some political ideology or whatever else can lead people to psuedo-fascism.  These guys just use Jesus as a symbol; they're not following anything he taught.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#38 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:15 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't they win another battle beside Stem-Cell... and in some places intelligent design/creationism.... didn't they win the battle with sex-education in lots of places? If anything but absteneince is taught are they then NOT given funding from the federal government? Maybe I'm wrong, because I don't too closely follow that up here in Canada.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:42 PM

Every time Creationism has come to court in the US, mostly for people insisting it be taught as science as opposed to being taught in whatever US class covers religion, it has been tossed out unceremoniously as being blatantly unscientific. So I'd say that particular battle hasn't been won yet by the fundamentalists.

However it doesn't stop them from trying.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#40 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:43 PM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Apr 9 2007, 07:11 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 9 2007, 07:06 PM, said:

Rov, it's true that 150 graduates of Regent is a small percentage of the DOJ. However, they're well-placed. (Goodling, for instance, was a chief assistant to the Attorney General). And some are in personnel, doing the hiring. (Read the Boston Globe article.)
I have to agree with Rov.  Name one major battle that the religious fundamentalist have won that has a daily impact on everyday Americans? If anything they are losing on every front or barely holding the line.  I think people tend to give them way too much credit because they happen to be very good at making noise even though they accomplish nothing.


The current presidency and the war in Iraq, and Bushes second election. If it weren't for christains, he wouldn't have been elected the first time.
Can't Touch This!!



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