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Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran

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#121 G1223

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:00 AM

That government has been odious for over 30 years. It has worked towards gaining power and everytime had to be pushed back. Excuse me if I do not want a major city ruined and millions dead dying and crippled because we would not be proactive and stop this with a lower body count. Using a nuke ensures that the whole plant and it's equipment will not useable very quickly if not totally unusable. It ensures that some of the people who can direct construction of these plants will not be alive to keep working.  

But if you prefer we could carpet bomb the area and maybe the equipment will be unuseable. Otherwise you will run the risk that it is not enough.
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#122 Godeskian

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:42 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 23 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

Excuse me if I do not want a major city ruined and millions dead dying and crippled

I don't want that either. The difference between us is that I don't want that city to be an Iranian city anymore than I want it to be an American or British city.

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Using a nuke ensures that the whole plant and it's equipment will not useable very quickly if not totally unusable.

And then the next time someone talks about countries committing acts of terror using WMD's, America will top the list. They'll talk about how the US used the same WMD's they demand other countries give up against a civilian facility out of paranoia and fear. And the next time the US claims to want to invade a country for fear of their WMD program, the entire world will laugh at the US and their hypocrisy.

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But if you prefer we could carpet bomb the area and maybe the equipment will be unuseable. Otherwise you will run the risk that it is not enough.

Carpetbombing is a form of WMD in my book. After all, it is a weapon that causes mass destruction. The only difference is that it's thousands of small bombs, rather than one big one.

Edited by Godeskian, 23 April 2007 - 07:44 AM.

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#123 Spectacles

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:43 AM

G, let's assume for a moment that your position that the only good response to Iran is to nuke it is correct.

Why then hasn't Bush done this?

Why haven't the Israelis?

What do you think is stopping them? I'm just curious....
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#124 BklnScott

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 09:37 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 23 2007, 08:42 AM, said:

And then the next time someone talks about countries committing acts of terror using WMD's, America will top the list. They'll talk about how the US used the same WMD's they demand other countries give up against a civilian facility out of paranoia and fear.

Very well-said, Gode!  It is about fear and paranoia for some people -- and that's no way to live, certainly no way to govern.  (Especially when you're the most powerful country the world has ever known.)  It's ridiculous, actually.

Even if Iran gets the bomb (which I think is a good bet), they're not likely to use it for the same reason no other member of the nuclear club ever has (at least, not since it's been a club): because using it will result in the instant and total annhilation of their country.  Nuclear deterrence works.  Always has.

The true value of the bomb is not military (at least, not primarily), but political.

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And the next time the US claims to want to invade a country for fear of their WMD program, the entire world will laugh at the US and their hypocrisy.

Too late.  We're already there.  Next time, no one will believe us, and that's because Iraq posed no threat.  We're bogged down, our military stretched to the breaking point, in the middle of a civil war in a country that posed us no threat in the first place.  

So, yeah, of course, the next time America cries wolf, people will be reluctant to believe--and that won't be the fault of the skeptics, it'll be the fault of the Bush administration for abusing America's credibility by crying wolf in the first place.

Edited by ScottEVill, 23 April 2007 - 09:40 AM.

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#125 G1223

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:32 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 23 2007, 08:43 AM, said:

G, let's assume for a moment that your position that the only good response to Iran is to nuke it is correct.

Why then hasn't Bush done this?

Why haven't the Israelis?

What do you think is stopping them? I'm just curious....

Because too many people want to be wishful in their thinking to shoot the rapid dog. They want somone else to come and do it. Then of course when someone does do it. They will condem them because they dared to interfer with on going talks. It will not matter what proof there is. Only that they got exactly what they needed just not what they want.
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#126 The Tyrant

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:36 AM

Oh, please, G....Bush is the last person to base his actions on popular opinion. If he thought nuking Iran was the only solution, he'd do it even if every other single person on the face of the planet thought it was a bad idea. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks...

I had hoped I wouldn't see World War III in my lifetime...guess I'm going to be disappointed.
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#127 BklnScott

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:37 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 23 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 23 2007, 08:43 AM, said:

G, let's assume for a moment that your position that the only good response to Iran is to nuke it is correct.

Why then hasn't Bush done this?

Why haven't the Israelis?

What do you think is stopping them? I'm just curious....

Because too many people want to be wishful in their thinking to shoot the rapid dog.

You're arguing that the *Israelis* haven't nuked Iran because they're hoping Iran decides to play nice?  Horse puckey.  Israel hasn't nuked Iran because anyone who orders a nuclear first-strike instantly becomes a bigger problem than the country they've attacked.  A *much* bigger problem.

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#128 G1223

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:42 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Apr 23 2007, 10:37 AM, said:

Even if Iran gets the bomb (which I think is a good bet), they're not likely to use it for the same reason no other member of the nuclear club ever has (at least, not since it's been a club): because using it will result in the instant and total annhilation of their country.  Nuclear deterrence works.  Always has.

The true value of the bomb is not military (at least, not primarily), but political.

So what will we do when they close off the gulf access? Go to the UN and boo hoo. Why would they do it. So they can force us to abandon Israel. One of the reasons they tried last time. IT was workable and if they had a sort of protection against the west forcing their way in like last time would have  likely forced us and the west to abandon Israel. Give them a Nuclear shield and they can sink our ships with immunity. What are we going to do? Besides seek terms. Bye Israel it was nice knowing you.

  Raise the price of oil up high enough by keeping tankers out or sinking them. And what about the navies of the West. Well they sink well too. What nuke Iran? They and the appeasers will just will use use the "Oh no not nukes.  We can talk them into reasonable oil prices." lines of BS.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#129 BklnScott

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:46 AM

View PostG1223, on Apr 23 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Apr 23 2007, 10:37 AM, said:

Even if Iran gets the bomb (which I think is a good bet), they're not likely to use it for the same reason no other member of the nuclear club ever has (at least, not since it's been a club): because using it will result in the instant and total annhilation of their country.  Nuclear deterrence works.  Always has.

The true value of the bomb is not military (at least, not primarily), but political.

So what will we do when they close off the gulf access?

Nuking them in that scenario would not get the oil flowing again, G.  

And Israel has the ability to defend itself -- with nuclear force, if necessary.  It's not going anywhere.  We made sure of that.

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#130 G1223

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:54 AM

Yeah right. I remember how Israel has been building every weapon they use because they know that sooner or later the west is going to be pressured out of supporting Israel. And as you say when Isreal is pushed over the edge. They will be punished for standing up for themselves.

Note how the recent problem with Lebanon went. Isreal is a bad guy it went north after the terrorist and razed all of southren Lebanon to prevent any more attacks. They were condemed they had threats of sanctions. Because they stood up for themselves.

Remember when they took out the Iraq reactor in the 80's they were also brow beaten for doing it. We had congress making noise about our own sanctions.

They know if they defend themselves with those weapons they will need to go it alone for a long while. If not till the end of Israel. Which might come as the West send troops in based on UN resoultions.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#131 Godeskian

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 12:10 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 23 2007, 05:54 PM, said:

Yeah right. I remember how Israel has been building every weapon they use because they know that sooner or later the west is going to be pressured out of supporting Israel. And as you say when Isreal is pushed over the edge. They will be punished for standing up for themselves.

Note how the recent problem with Lebanon went. Isreal is a bad guy it went north after the terrorist and razed all of southren Lebanon to prevent any more attacks. They were condemed they had threats of sanctions. Because they stood up for themselves.

Remember when they took out the Iraq reactor in the 80's they were also brow beaten for doing it. We had congress making noise about our own sanctions.

They know if they defend themselves with those weapons they will need to go it alone for a long while. If not till the end of Israel. Which might come as the West send troops in based on UN resoultions.

I'm curious why you're so ready to destroy Iran to save Israel.

And are you going to respond to my previous points, or should I consider them accurate?

Edited by Godeskian, 23 April 2007 - 12:10 PM.

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#132 G1223

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 03:00 PM

I simply think that an ally of the US beats a country that has been the cause of the deaths of americans. A  nation that has supported trained and sent troops to back terrorist that kill Americans today.  A nation that if we asked. Do you think Iran is evil. Would likely get a majority of Americans saying yes. if not Hell yes.

Do you accpt that Iran is supporting terrorists? Yes or No.

Do you think that it is wrong to support terrorists? Yes or No.

Do you think Iran with the bomb is more of a threat?  Yes or No.

Do you think that Iran is going to get the bomb? Yes or No.


Carpet boming is the way to take out an area. Laser guided bombs are nice to take out key points but you will want the cyclotrons as well as the workers killed. And the engineers as well.

I love the do nothing crowd. It must be nice to be right we cannot do anything to stop them because someone will get hurt so lets not.  

Most of us see Iran is a danger and still you want us to hug the rapid dog and make it feel loved.  Rather than shoot it.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#133 Godeskian

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 03:20 PM

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

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#134 BklnScott

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 04:00 PM

^^^Indeed.  G, I think you lose the right to expect your questions to be answered if you refuse to answer ours.  

That said, I will answer yours, because I'm a good egg.   :angel:  If I were a religious sort, I would thank god every day that the world is not as black-and-white a place as you make it out to be.  

Is Iran supporting terrorists?  Yes, of course they are, but, tben again, most countries have done so at one time or another.  What country was the main backer of the IRA?  Make an effort to answer, now.  

That's right, it was the good ol' USofA.  The money came from wealthy Irish-Americans in the Northeast.  The visas for Gerry Adams, et al, to appear at IRA fundraisers in rich suburbs of NY and Boston came from the State Department.  And the political component was handled by Rep. Pete King (who used to be my congressman, when I lived on LI), Senators Kerry and Kennedy, and others.

By your logic, Britain should've nuked us off the face of the earth.  I remain quite thankful that they did not.

We supported terrorists in Central America in the 80s, too.  (And elsewhere.)  

So, yeah, Iran supports terrorists--but what *sort* of terrorists?  Are they terrorists who have attacked us on American soil?  Or even tried?  Or announced that they intend to do so?   No, no, and no.  The terrorists Iran supports are focused solely on Israel.  

Yes, Israel is our ally -- but then again, if we have one closer, stronger ally in the world, it's Britain.  Not only did we not target the IRA on behalf of that ally, we got in bed with the terrorists targeting them, and became their bankers.  We literally kept that terrorist group alive and fighting -- we *funded* attacks on London!  

So stop pretending that this is such a simple, black & white issue, 'cause nothing could be further from the truth.  

If we want to show no mercy to nations that support terrorists, I suggest we start with nations who support Al Qaeda.  Remember them?  The ones who *actually* attacked us?  I'm reminded of that every single day, twice a day, when I walk through the pit at Ground Zero on my way to and from work.  

But here we are getting all worked up about terrorists that *didn't* attack New York City, while we've virtually forgotten about the ones who did.

I don't, however, hear you complaining about that.  (Whereas I have been a broken record on the subject--for years now.)

I would love it if we could start keeping our eye on the ball with regard to terrorism: the ones who attacked New York City outweigh the ones who attacked Tel Aviv.  

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I love the do nothing crowd.

Just as I love the "nuke everything" crowd.  You're right, of course: when there's no one left in the world to oppose us, we win.  Except, of course, for the fact that, by then, the world--having been reduced to a radioactive cinder--won't be worth having.  

My advice would be to try looking at the bigger picture once in a while.  That's the first rule of tactics, after all.  Nothing occurs in a vacuum.  We could nuke Iran--we could literally remove that nation from the face of the earth, as you suggest--but what would happen after we did so?  Weigh the benefits against the costs, and you'll quickly see that it's not worth it: it creates more problems than it solves.  (And also, it's the wrong thing to do.  If right and wrong matter in geopolitics.)

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It must be nice to be right we cannot do anything to stop them because someone will get hurt so lets not.

Earlier in this thread, you were damning Iran for not "following the faith of peace" -- but that's not a 'faith' you, yourself, seem to put any particular stock in.  

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Most of us see Iran is a danger and still you want us to hug the rapid dog and make it feel loved.  Rather than shoot it.

A statement from the "we had to burn that village to save it" school of thought if ever I heard one.

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#135 Spectacles

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 04:17 PM

Thanks for answering my questions earlier, G. I don't agree with you, but I appreciate your taking the time to answer.

Here's what Olmert had to say about the reason for Israeli restraint right now. This is from an interview he gave yesterday:

http://www.dailytime...3-4-2007_pg4_12

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“Iran is far from attaining the technology threshhold and this country is not close to getting it, contrary to statements by its leadership,” he said. Olmert also said that he preferred diplomacy in dealing with the Islamic republic’s controversial nuclear programme.

“I don’t think that a military operation would ensure that Iran doesn’t get nuclear arms,” he said. “The enormous diplomatic efforts, with which Israel is associated, are attaining their objective,” he said. “Iran is the biggest danger for us, but we shouldn’t give in to panic and hysteria, which result in nothing,” he said.

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#136 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 10:44 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Apr 21 2007, 10:10 PM, said:

Finally - neither did any of the Baha'i turn anyone into human bombs nor fly planes into buildings.  And now that you've Godwinized the thread, let me also point out that we didn't vaporize the souls in Germany, knowing, as we did, that lots of innocent people were in the way of such action.  We did vaporize the souls in Japan - and it seems that maybe we found that easier since those were all clearly "other" people - not like "us."

You do know the history behind the Manhattan Project?  The Atomic Bomb was developed for use against Germany rather than Japan.  It just happened that Germany surrendered before we even managed to do the Trinity Test.  So the Atomic Bomb was never ready to be used against Germany.  If the war would have lasted longer than the bomb would have likely been used against Germany.  The bomb wasn't used against Japan because they were different.  It was used because an invasion of the home islands of Japan would have been a bloodbath for both sides.
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#137 Rhea

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:02 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 23 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

I simply think that an ally of the US beats a country that has been the cause of the deaths of americans. A  nation that has supported trained and sent troops to back terrorist that kill Americans today.  A nation that if we asked. Do you think Iran is evil. Would likely get a majority of Americans saying yes. if not Hell yes.

From Wikipedia:

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Nineteen men boarded the four planes, five each on American Airlines Flight 11, United Airlines Flight 175 and American Airlines Flight 77, four on United Airlines Flight 93. Fifteen of the attackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.

Sounds to me as though if we follow your premise we'd be nuking Saudi Arabia. ;) I don't see any Iranians on that list, do you??
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#138 SparkyCola

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 07:54 AM

^ Funny how that point gets repeatedly ignored.
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#139 Godeskian

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:03 AM

True, you very rarely hear the militant 'nuke Iran' crowd talking about nuking Saudi Arabia. Funny how that works isn't it.

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#140 QueenTiye

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:18 AM

Maybe they aren't saying "nuke Saudi Arabia" but by implication - Saudi Arabia isn't exempt.  G1223 has already posited taking out the entire "arab" world, as heinous a thought as that is.

CJ - Rhea corrected me upthread, and I acknowledged it.

I most certainly would have been amongst those who thought that was a miserable thing to do unless they'd taken steps in the first place to remove innocents (and that assumes that all of Germany was "guilty.")

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