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Election 2008 John McCain Republicans

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#41 Godeskian

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:00 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 20 2007, 09:51 PM, said:

Odd it has never once stopped China nor those who want China to prosper.
Economic prosperity and moral authority don't necesarrily go hand in hand. I think most people in the western world do see China as a nasty country, and no I personally haven't forgotten Tieneman square, nor any of China's other rights abuses.

But I think it's important to note that North Korea, who has the bomb and was just as much part of the Axis of Evil as Iran was, hasn't gone ahead and nuked Japan just yet.

As for talking with Iran not working, well, not talking to them hasn't yielded any results so far. Maybe we should try talking to them rather than sermonising.

And I'm not sure I believe that our only to options are 'do nothing' and 'nuke the bastards'

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#42 Themis

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

I don't like the idea of anybody having nukes, including the US.  However, what is it that lets us tell another nation what they are allowed to do or not do?  Not that treaties mean much, but have they signed any?  Nobody appointed this country king of the world where our desires trump the desires of another country.  Though we (the US) sure acts like we've been appointed.

If there are any really targeted bombs out there - you launch it and can guarantee it will hit one particular house - then by all means use bombs against terrorists.  Of course you're absolutely sure only terroritsts - and, ok, this is war, maybe their immediate families - live in that house.  One particular apartment.  One particular store.  Otherwise we become just as bad as they are.  

I'd like to withdraw from the whole middle east and let them all play in their own sandbox until they figure out a way to live with each other and only come out when they think they can live with other people too.  

It won't happen, of course.  So hey, let's do it G's way - three of them blow up thousands of us and three of us will blow up thousands of them and so on until the only people left are those stranded on the space station.  Yeah, makes sense to me.  NOT.

None of this makes sense to me, but I'm a pacifist at heart.  Humans (and lesser critters) are territorial and want to expand their territory and that has pretty much driven our existence.  Further complicated by religions.  Since that won't change, "us" vs. "them" will just go marching on as long as humans exist.   Do any of those supposedly all-purpose guidance religious texts have a compromise between "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek"?????
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#43 BklnScott

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:02 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 20 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Apr 20 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

We have not talked to Iran.  Why are people acting as though we have, and those talks failed?

As far as "defying others" goes -- Iran is not a unique nation in that regard.  Doesn't seem to bother you when we do it.

Well lets see. I seem to recall a set of talks where Iran said we are going to keep going with our nuclear project.

I guess they were meaning and the newspeak always confuses me.

Yeah, it confuses me, too.  Such as when you allege that "we" have "talked and talked and talked" to Iran, but it turns out that by "we" you mean "the government of some other country besides ours."  "Newspeak," indeed.  

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So yes we have talked to them.

No, *we* haven't.

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#44 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:04 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 20 2007, 05:00 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 20 2007, 09:51 PM, said:

Odd it has never once stopped China nor those who want China to prosper.
Economic prosperity and moral authority don't necesarrily go hand in hand. I think most people in the western world do see China as a nasty country, and no I personally haven't forgotten Tieneman square, nor any of China's other rights abuses.

But I think it's important to note that North Korea, who has the bomb and was just as much part of the Axis of Evil as Iran was, hasn't gone ahead and nuked Japan just yet.

As for talking with Iran not working, well, not talking to them hasn't yielded any results so far. Maybe we should try talking to them rather than sermonising.

And I'm not sure I believe that our only to options are 'do nothing' and 'nuke the bastards'


Because China has not given them the go ahead. That is why North Korea has not attacked anyone. They also if I remember right are still working on the delivery system. Really suck to fire your nuke and have it spash down in the sea of japan.
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#45 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:05 PM

That Leauge of Useless Nations I mean Unitred Nations has been talking and talking and talking to them for the last three years at least.
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#46 SparkyCola

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:08 PM

Quote

Well lets see. I seem to recall a set of talks where Iran said we are going to keep going with our nuclear project.

I thought the talks went more along the lines of:

US: Stop building nukes.
Iran: a) we're not, we're building a nuclear power station, and b) don't tell us what to do.
US: we don't believe you. Stop building nukes.
Iran: we said...ah forget it.

The Persian empire used to have a very strong scientific thread to it, and Iran is currently working on bringing that pride in the quality of their science back. I think this is something to be encouraged. It also means it really is possible they are just building a power station.

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#47 Godeskian

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:10 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 20 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

Because China has not given them the go ahead. That is why North Korea has not attacked anyone. They also if I remember right are still working on the delivery system. Really suck to fire your nuke and have it spash down in the sea of japan.

Or maybe it's not because of Chinese shadow puppets pulling on Kim Jong Il's strings, but because even Kim Jong Il isn't a complete moron. No one who has nuclear weapons can seriously believe they can use them and survive the experience, that's why they call it Mutually Assured Destruction.

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#48 Spectacles

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:34 PM

Still wanting an answer to my question up yonder: what is Iran likely to do with nukes once it gets them? Anybody have any guesses?
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#49 Godeskian

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:37 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 20 2007, 10:34 PM, said:

Still wanting an answer to my question up yonder: what is Iran likely to do with nukes once it gets them? Anybody have any guesses?

IMO? Nothing. Because to do anything with them would for all practical purposes be suicide. It's easy for Ahmadinejad to advocate Israel's destruction when he doesn't have the ability to carry through on it, but if he aquires nukes he's suddenly faced by a far more complicated choice. If he attacks Israel, then I have no doubt that Israel, or one of it's allies, or one of Iran's enemies, will retaliate in kind. So I think that he won't do anything with them, because I don't believe he's willing to sacrifice his entire country, not to mention his own life, for the sake of political rethoric designed to appeal to the hardline base in Iran.

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#50 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 05:37 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 20 2007, 05:34 PM, said:

Still wanting an answer to my question up yonder: what is Iran likely to do with nukes once it gets them? Anybody have any guesses?

Well first start to search for methods to hand them off to terrorists. They will do this before their radioactive footprint(The way we can tell where radioactive materials were made. The footprint from the reactors is suppose to be different from other reactors)

Then sit back and act shocked when Israel gets attacked.
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#51 Captain Jack

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 05:45 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 20 2007, 02:34 PM, said:

Still wanting an answer to my question up yonder: what is Iran likely to do with nukes once it gets them? Anybody have any guesses?

One of the things they may do is sell them.  They know they have plenty of buyers out there.  Another is to threaten to use them, making more political drama around the world.  Or, they can threaten, and actually use them as a show of force.

The thing that bothers me is that Iran, and other nations like them seem to fail to realize the full dangers of using nukes on others.  Nations like the United States do realize the dangers which is why their is such pressure in not making them.  Modern nuclear weapons are vastly more dangerous today than the ones used in WWII to bomb Japan.

Another valid and major concern is whether they really understand how to handle nuclear material.  This stuff is vile, and we don't need another Chernobyl.  Iran is playing with something very dangerous, and has been very bold about it as well.  They don't want to talk.  Their actions have shown that clear as day.
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#52 Rhea

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 06:20 PM

View PostKosh, on Apr 20 2007, 01:26 PM, said:

Quote

Yep, I miss the old McCain, and I seriously wonder about his judgment these days. It seems off. I hope there's not some underlying health problem that's causing it; after all, he's 72. Some 72-year-olds are sharper than I'll ever be, but some folks start to lose a few beats in their seventies (and sixties...and fifties, for that matter

The old McCain couldn't get the republican nomination, so he has gone in the direction of the person who beat him. It wont work, since he now looks as two faced as Mit Romney. He's not getting senile, but his political instincts have failed him. He probably could have been elected in 08 as an independent, had he staid where he was politicly, but I can't see him being elected now.

And speaking of asses, Romney embarassed himself the other day when:

http://michellemalki...ives/007126.htm

Quote

But when he mistakenly associated Fidel Castro's trademark speech-ending slogan -- Patria o muerte, venceremos! -- with a free Cuba, listeners didn't laugh. They winced.

Talk about frakking up a speech!!
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#53 tennyson

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:07 PM

In response to the question about authority to say Iran does not get nuclear weapons, Iran signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty which prevents the use of nuclear energy for anything but peaceful purposes and bans nonnuclear weapn states from developing them.  
Here are the articles from wkipedia,


Quote

Article I:[4] Each nuclear-weapons state (NWS) undertakes not to transfer, to any recipient, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices, and not to assist any non-nuclear weapon state to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices.

Article II: Each non-NWS party undertakes not to receive, from any source, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices; not to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices; and not to receive any assistance in their manufacture.

Article III: Each non-NWS party undertakes to conclude an agreement with the IAEA for the application of its safeguards to all nuclear material in all of the state's peaceful nuclear activities and to prevent diversion of such material to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Article VI. The states undertake to negotiate toward general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

Article X. Establishes the right to withdraw from the Treaty giving 3 months' notice. It also establishes the duration of the Treaty (25 years before 1995 Extension Initiative).

Therefore the international community has the right to say to Iran via this treaty that it does not get to have nuclear weapons since it has signed the treaty and has not withdrawn from it.  This is not simply an issue between the US and Iran. The UN Security Council voted unanimously for the sanctions on Iran and Iran's program has provoked worry among the governments of France, Germany and the UK among other nations. This issue is between Iran and a significant fraction of the rest of the world. It is not simply an American-Iran issue and I wish people would stop treating it as such.
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#54 Rhea

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:51 PM

^Well said.

The Bush administration has caused some of us to have our heads stuck so far up our asses that we forget that other nations and other means exist to deal with countries like Iran and N. Korea besides bombing them to extinction or going to war with them on our own.

It's better in oh, so many ways when we let the international community deal with this stuff - at least then our kids are doing all the dying and we're not doing all the paying (and yes, I know we have allies in Iraq, but they're all leaving, ya know?).

Edited by Rhea, 20 April 2007 - 07:51 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#55 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:52 PM

But remember we are not talking to them. There is no discoiurse from the international community. This is just the US picking on poor little Iran.

Looks like the Iranian minstery of truth has done their job well.
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#56 Themis

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:59 PM

View Posttennyson, on Apr 21 2007, 12:07 AM, said:

In response to the question about authority to say Iran does not get nuclear weapons, Iran signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty which prevents the use of nuclear energy for anything but peaceful purposes and bans nonnuclear weapn states from developing them.  

Therefore the international community has the right to say to Iran via this treaty that it does not get to have nuclear weapons since it has signed the treaty and has not withdrawn from it.  This is not simply an issue between the US and Iran. The UN Security Council voted unanimously for the sanctions on Iran and Iran's program has provoked worry among the governments of France, Germany and the UK among other nations. This issue is between Iran and a significant fraction of the rest of the world. It is not simply an American-Iran issue and I wish people would stop treating it as such.

Fair enough, even if wikipedia isn't an unimpeachable source, looks reasonably accurate here.  I didn't know and that's why I asked. (Though knowing my native country, that wouldn't stop our impertenance!)

Did N. Korea sign anything like that?

Americans have a tendency to act as if everything were a US vs. the "bad guys" issue.  A factor of how far we are from most other countries plus our noto-so-wonderful job of educating our citizens.
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#57 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 08:04 PM

Well since North Korea is off the Bad guy list. Pay no attention to their attempts to kill the south korean leadership more than once. That it is a place that makes Orwells nightmare of 1984 look uplifting and cheerful.  

No North Korea has been picked on so often and it is just wrong.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#58 tennyson

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 08:42 PM

Quote

Did N. Korea sign anything like that?

Yes, North Korea signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty then cheated on it. Then it announced that it was withdrawling from the treaty and did so.

I used Wikipedia because it had useful if somewhat incoherent information that wouldn't involve me hunting through my university library until I found a book with the information I needed then transcribing it. I really need to see if Globalsecurity.org or fas.org has a copy of the nonproliferation treaty in an easily accessable format.
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#59 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 08:48 PM

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Kosh: It would be our third front with an active war, and four if you count Korea, since we can't remove troops from the border.
If Israel attacks Iran then Iran is likely to come after us in retaliation so that third front is something that we'll end up with whether we want it or not.  So I'd rather fight that thirs front on our own terms.  Personaly if we have to in the worse case fight Iran I'm for getting out of Iraq and focusing our attention on the more imienent threat.    

Quote

Kosh: If we start something with Iran we'd either have to draft soldiers or go Nuclear against them, then the rest of the world, under the UN, would come after us. We can't fight Iran until we can get out of one theater.
I don't see anyone suggest the US should go nuclear against Iran as a first strike.  At least I'm not.  Second if we go forward with such a bizarre scenario the UN needs the US to do anything since we have veto power on the Security Council.    

Quote

Scott:
We have not talked to Iran. Why are people acting as though we have, and those talks failed?
What has the UN and entire international community been doing with Iran this entire time? :blink:  They sure haven't been sitting on their thumbs for once.  A lot of countries and groups have been engaged trying to talk with Iran so to say that Iran hasn't been talked to is like saying the sky isn't blue.

Quote

Themis: I'd like to withdraw from the whole middle east and let them all play in their own sandbox until they figure out a way to live with each other and only come out when they think they can live with other people too.
That works great until they decide to use biological warfare in their internal conflicts and it spread out across the world.  Or till the biggest and baddest of the guys in the Middle East climbs to the top of the pile and wins.  Then heaven knows what we might be dealing with.  Getting us out of the ME in terms of reliance on oil would be great.  Yet a total and complete withdrawl from the ME and sticking up a stay in there and fight amongst yourselves sign is a very bad idea.  

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 20 2007, 05:37 PM, said:

So I think that he won't do anything with them, because I don't believe he's willing to sacrifice his entire country, not to mention his own life, for the sake of political rethoric designed to appeal to the hardline base in Iran.
And you are willing to put your faith in religious fanatics who have a culture of death and martyrdom to the test when it comes to millions of people?
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#60 G1223

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 09:26 PM

But CJ it's Happy Martyrdom. See We just see as evil. It isn't just ask CNN..... I mean The Minisrty of Truth.Two seperate enities. Really just ask them seperately.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
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TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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