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Utah: Concealed Weapons Allowed On Campus

Utah 2007 Concealed Weapons

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#1 Vapor Trails

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:24 AM

With the whole debate going on about the VT slaughter, I found this particular story fascinating. I was busy cleaning up a room in my house this morning, when a piece appeared on CNN about university students being able to carry weapons with them to class. Utah allows folks to carry legally licensed handguns. In the piece, there was one student who went to class with his handgun. The reporter asked the teacher if he knew that this student carried a concealed weapon. He replied he didn't, but he also said that this made him feel safer. :blink:

I tried finding a corresponding article on CNN.com, but wasn't able to. However, I managed to Google a bunch of things about gun laws in Utah, and the debate about guns on Utah's university campuses. Here's one from the Salt Lake Tribune.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Edited by Digital Man, 26 April 2007 - 11:10 AM.

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#2 G1223

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:54 AM

They are following the law and almost everyone of them are responible people who will never draw their weapon except to clean it or use it on the range. The remain percentage will use it incorrectly or will use it correctly in a situation it should be used for.

What folks opposed to guns being in hand of private citizens cannot understand is that the crazy people will get a weapon or make one or pick up one like a fire axe or a broken loose pipe. and go to town on whoever they are going to kill.

If the story had been 32 killed by pipe using madman would we be faced with Pipe control laws?

Hell I remember after the Oklahoma City Bombing Congress wanted to create Nitrate Free Fertilizer. Since Nitrates are were what the bombers wahnted to make their bomb.

Problem was that the Nitrates were the reason a farmer wants the fertilizer. It makes the plants grow.
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#3 Zwolf

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 11:22 AM

I dunno.  I wouldn't feel safer, because who knows if the guy carrying the gun is any good with it?  Just having a gun doesn't mean you won't get shot.  Just a few posts down the page you can find a post about 3 NY state troopers getting shot, and I'm sure they were not only armed when it happened, they're trained in how to use 'em.  Anybody with enough insecurities to think they need to carry a gun to class is likely to be a nervous twerp to begin with, so I'm not sure I'd feel safer around that guy... I've known too many like him.

And if a school shooting breaks out and you have other armed students running around with guns, the cops are going to have a hard time knowing who the perp is... so, I'm not gonna blame 'em if they just shoot any non-uniformed individual who's holding a gun.   (I had that situation once... somebody tried to break into my house at 4 a.m. and I stalked 'em all over the yard with a gun for a while.  When I couldn't find 'em, I called the cops... and all that did was keep me from looking for the guy anymore so they wouldn't shoot me.  If I'd known that all the cops were going to do was drive by and shine a spotlight, I wouldn't have bothered calling 'em.)

Still, if he's got a legit permit to carry, and the campus is okay with it, and his folks won't sue if he catches one between the antlers if he gets in the way, then, eh, I don't have a major problem with it.  Might help, might not.

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#4 Captain Jack

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:30 PM

GOOD!

I'm glad thay can carry if they so choose to.  At least some people have their thoughts in the right direction.  Anyone STUPID enough to try to pull a "Cho", will be met with a hail full of bullets.  But that won't happen since people like Cho will be too afraid to pull this since they know they'll be gunned down after their first shot.  Toast, done, finished.  Any little punk will be filled with so much lead, they'll use him for a pencil instead.
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#5 Spectacles

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:37 PM

I think CJ covered this issue well in the Second Amendment thread:

http://www.exisle.ne...&...st&p=983594

It's a good post, and he raises some excellent concerns about arming everyone willy-nilly.
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#6 Godeskian

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:54 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Apr 26 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Oh, I find this dangerous. What happens when during the 'hail of bullets' innocents get cut down by people trying to defend themselves agaisnt a gunman. How will they feel knowing they've killed an innocent? After all a 'hail of bullets' is a very imprecise weapon.

Edited by Godeskian, 26 April 2007 - 03:54 PM.

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#7 Zwolf

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:03 PM

Quote

It's a good post, and he raises some excellent concerns about arming everyone willy-nilly.

I agree, it's a great post, even if he did "call me on the carpet" a little bit in it... :)  

Cheers,

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#8 G1223

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:25 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 26 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on Apr 26 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Oh, I find this dangerous. What happens when during the 'hail of bullets' innocents get cut down by people trying to defend themselves agaisnt a gunman. How will they feel knowing they've killed an innocent? After all a 'hail of bullets' is a very imprecise weapon.

Likely the same as would happen if the cops shoot and the bulliet passes through suspect and inbto a second bystander.  Folks would be upset. The Police would feel guilty.

The reality is first no one knows the mind of the insane. They may not care. But the guy who is looking at just grabbing a coed is going to think twice if he knows that some of the women are packing. Just as if to prevent a repeat attack by a serial rapist they are sending in policewomen to act as bait.

The majority of people who have weapons are safe with them.
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#9 Godeskian

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:29 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 26 2007, 10:25 PM, said:

The majority of people who have weapons are safe with them.

I hope you're right, but I'll admit this makes me feel uneasy

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#10 G1223

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:39 PM

People have motor vehicle licences and it appears a majority act in reasonable ways otherwise we would have many more driving accidents.
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#11 Vapor Trails

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:27 PM

View PostG1223, on Apr 26 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

People have motor vehicle licences and it appears a majority act in reasonable ways otherwise we would have many more driving accidents.


Yes, except cars aren't meant for killing people, so I think your comparison leans towards apples & oranges.
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#12 Captain Jack

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:46 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 26 2007, 01:54 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on Apr 26 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Oh, I find this dangerous. What happens when during the 'hail of bullets' innocents get cut down by people trying to defend themselves agaisnt a gunman. How will they feel knowing they've killed an innocent? After all a 'hail of bullets' is a very imprecise weapon.

See, now, what makes you think there's going to be a "hail of bullets"?  Folks who are un-armed are going to run for cover, as are anyone with Concealed Carry Permits.  No one is going to just stand there.  People with CC's are far more careful than that.  Anyone who has one knows full well to never pull the trigger unless the target has been properly aquired.  Not only that, but folks also know full well to be aware of who is behind the intended target as well.  You don't just whip a gun out and start shooting.  That's what bad guys do, but doesn't automatically mean those that legally carry do as well. Remember the Utah mall incident?  An off duty cop exchanged fire with the gunman, no innocents were hit by the cop because they all scurried away.

Even if there were a couple injured innocents, I'd rather have that than 32 dead ones any day.
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#13 Captain Jack

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:51 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Apr 26 2007, 03:27 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 26 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

People have motor vehicle licences and it appears a majority act in reasonable ways otherwise we would have many more driving accidents.


Yes, except cars aren't meant for killing people, so I think your comparison leans towards apples & oranges.

Yet, cars, and other vehicles have been used as weapons to kill.  Intended for killing people or not, it has been, and will be used as such for a long time.  A kitchen knife is meant for cutting, yet hasn't stopped anyone from finding killing uses for it either.  Same goes for baseball bats, hatchets, chainsaws, nail guns, axes, hammers, and even 2X4's.

Guns are neither good or evil things.  They are just things.  I have a gun, but it doesn't kill anyone.  It only kills paper and empty soda cans.  Many people compete with guns, and not a single person is killed.  It's funny how I keep reading that things like cars aren't meant to kill people (but do), and yet guns ONLY are meant to kill people.  Guns have other uses too other than protection.  Like archery, shooting is also a sport, where the only casualty is paper, melons, and cardboard.  Guns don't have to kill.
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#14 Captain Jack

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:54 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 26 2007, 02:29 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 26 2007, 10:25 PM, said:

The majority of people who have weapons are safe with them.

I hope you're right, but I'll admit this makes me feel uneasy

He is, actually.  Getting a concealed carry permit requires some really tough tests ranging from firearms safety and handling, to shooting proficiency.
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#15 G1223

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 06:16 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Apr 26 2007, 06:27 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Apr 26 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

People have motor vehicle licences and it appears a majority act in reasonable ways otherwise we would have many more driving accidents.


Yes, except cars aren't meant for killing people, so I think your comparison leans towards apples & oranges.

I am trying to point out that many people are responsible about their actions and items they own and use.
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#16 scherzo

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 07:35 PM

Quote

It's funny how I keep reading that things like cars aren't meant to kill people (but do), and yet guns ONLY are meant to kill people. Guns have other uses too other than protection. Like archery, shooting is also a sport, where the only casualty is paper, melons, and cardboard. Guns don't have to kill.
I would argue that a gun properly used, will kill things...that need killing. Like this Cho character for instance.

I certainly don't think "crossfire" is a more deadly situation than being completely at the mercy of an armed nut. I'm not walking around carrying, but caught up in a Virginia Tech like melee I'd sure wanna be.

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#17 Broph

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 09:26 PM

View PostSpidey, on Apr 26 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

See, now, what makes you think there's going to be a "hail of bullets"?

Um, possibly what you wrote in post #4:

Quote

GOOD!

I'm glad thay can carry if they so choose to. At least some people have their thoughts in the right direction. Anyone STUPID enough to try to pull a "Cho", will be met with a hail full of bullets. But that won't happen since people like Cho will be too afraid to pull this since they know they'll be gunned down after their first shot. Toast, done, finished. Any little punk will be filled with so much lead, they'll use him for a pencil instead.

Quote

Folks who are un-armed are going to run for cover

The last time I checked, bullets move faster than people.

Quote

as are anyone with Concealed Carry Permits.

Do you supposed that someone like Cho might start firing from a position of cover?

Quote

People with CC's are far more careful than that.

I'm sorry, but that's a general statement you're making about people that you don't actually know. Cyclists will tell you that they're careful and that it's car drivers who are not careful, yet a cyclist almost rode right into my friend's car today.

Quote

Anyone who has one knows full well to never pull the trigger unless the target has been properly aquired.

I do consider that to be an opinion; not a qualified statement of fact. And in the heat of the moment, training can go out the window.

Quote

Remember the Utah mall incident?  An off duty cop exchanged fire with the gunman, no innocents were hit by the cop because they all scurried away.

A single "successful" outcome is not the basis for approving such action on a general rule.

#18 Captain Jack

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 09:45 PM

View PostBroph, on Apr 26 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Apr 26 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

See, now, what makes you think there's going to be a "hail of bullets"?

Um, possibly what you wrote in post #4:

Quote

GOOD!

I'm glad thay can carry if they so choose to. At least some people have their thoughts in the right direction. Anyone STUPID enough to try to pull a "Cho", will be met with a hail full of bullets. But that won't happen since people like Cho will be too afraid to pull this since they know they'll be gunned down after their first shot. Toast, done, finished. Any little punk will be filled with so much lead, they'll use him for a pencil instead.

And you took it literally?  Shame on you.

Quote

Quote

Folks who are un-armed are going to run for cover

The last time I checked, bullets move faster than people.

The last time I checked, bullets can't go around corners, change direction in mid air, or go through brick walls.  So, people can still run for cover.

Quote

Quote

as are anyone with Concealed Carry Permits.

Do you supposed that someone like Cho might start firing from a position of cover?

No, he didn't do it when he shot at those kids.  Looking for cover was not even on his mind, and he certainly didn't care about dying, so he wouldn't have bother either way.

Quote

Quote

People with CC's are far more careful than that.

I'm sorry, but that's a general statement you're making about people that you don't actually know. Cyclists will tell you that they're careful and that it's car drivers who are not careful, yet a cyclist almost rode right into my friend's car today.

You should be sorry.  Because they are more careful because they have to be if they wish to keep their permits to carry.  One wrong act, and it's good-bye permit, and they know it.  I know quite a few that CC as well that are in different states.  Those poeple have buddies that CC, and their buddies CC, and so on.

Quote

Quote

Anyone who has one knows full well to never pull the trigger unless the target has been properly aquired.

I do consider that to be an opinion; not a qualified statement of fact. And in the heat of the moment, training can go out the window.

It isn't an opinion when it is FACT.  What the is with you?  Heat of the moment?  Going out the window?  Law abiding gun owners aren't that stupid. It's part of their training to keep a cool head, and it is the NOT ALLOWED to take a shot if you can't make your hit without hurting some one else.  It's one of the most basic rules of handgun ownership to NEVER take a shot unless the target is properly aquired, and that the shooter knows of what or who is behind that target.  It's even part of the friggin' tests.

Quote

Quote

Remember the Utah mall incident?  An off duty cop exchanged fire with the gunman, no innocents were hit by the cop because they all scurried away.

A single "successful" outcome is not the basis for approving such action on a general rule.

Why, because it's a fact that doesn't suit YOUR opinion?  It's fact, and there have been other cases of it as well.  I listed an example, and a valid one at that.
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#19 Godeskian

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:34 AM

View PostSpidey, on Apr 27 2007, 03:45 AM, said:

View PostBroph, on Apr 26 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Apr 26 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

See, now, what makes you think there's going to be a "hail of bullets"?

Um, possibly what you wrote in post #4:

Quote

GOOD!

I'm glad thay can carry if they so choose to. At least some people have their thoughts in the right direction. Anyone STUPID enough to try to pull a "Cho", will be met with a hail full of bullets. But that won't happen since people like Cho will be too afraid to pull this since they know they'll be gunned down after their first shot. Toast, done, finished. Any little punk will be filled with so much lead, they'll use him for a pencil instead.

And you took it literally?  Shame on you.

Uhm, surely under most circumstances we are to assume that you mean what you write, or should w from here on assume that you are always speaking in metaphor?

Defy Gravity!


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#20 Captain Jack

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:49 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Apr 27 2007, 12:34 AM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Apr 27 2007, 03:45 AM, said:

View PostBroph, on Apr 26 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Apr 26 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

See, now, what makes you think there's going to be a "hail of bullets"?

Um, possibly what you wrote in post #4:

Quote

GOOD!

I'm glad thay can carry if they so choose to. At least some people have their thoughts in the right direction. Anyone STUPID enough to try to pull a "Cho", will be met with a hail full of bullets. But that won't happen since people like Cho will be too afraid to pull this since they know they'll be gunned down after their first shot. Toast, done, finished. Any little punk will be filled with so much lead, they'll use him for a pencil instead.

And you took it literally?  Shame on you.

Uhm, surely under most circumstances we are to assume that you mean what you write, or should w from here on assume that you are always speaking in metaphor?

Never assume anything.  If unclear, ask, which Broph elected not to do since my earlier statement was exaggerated to mean something I hadn't intended it to.  My comment in post #4 was merely an exaggeration of my own that shouldn't have been taken so literally.  Given that it was, my apologies.  The point I was trying to make is, people who choose to legally carry, will stop a person like Cho as quickly as possible, and by that, I don't mean "Shoot-out at the O.K. Corral" as I have said in later posts.  People who carry know better than to shoot from the hip and so forth.  Why?  Because they know full well that the consequences for such an act are quite severe, and they don't wish to be part of the problem or make things worse for themselves or anyone else.
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