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give up on abortion, the gay thing, even far right gop?

Politics Christian Right Evangelicals Republicans Social Issues 2007

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#1 offworlder

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 11:47 AM

http://abcnews.go.co...=3138468&page=1
hhmmm, could this be real, a real trend? could this change the colour of even ... our debates?
;) there is evolution in other things (even if some dont believe in it??) and so maybe in this area too?
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#2 QueenTiye

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 12:00 PM

The article is saying that the GOP can't take the evangelical vote for granted because evangelical Christianity cares about a lot of stuff - not just abortion and homosexuality.  That topic has been broached before here - that there are indeed some "lefty" evangelicals.

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#3 Bobby

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 04:02 PM

It would be nice if they found some other cause besides feeling they have to let us know we're sinners and need them to save us from ourselves.  Today on the readio I turned across a talk radio guy and one of his callers was going on about how the U.S. is like Rome and that if homosexuals get rights then it's over, so melodramatic.  

I have to say the far religious right has turned me off to religion so if the more moderate people who use their faith for inspiration in their lives and good works start getting the headlines I think it would do wonders for God's image.  Of course, I'm an agnostic gay man and I admit I've become prone to taking a negative view of people who claim to be Christians as soon as they say they are one b/c of the Falwells, Haggards, Phelps, and Dobsons of the world.

Here's hoping.

#4 Chakoteya

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 03:09 AM

View PostLife for Rent, on May 5 2007, 10:02 PM, said:

It would be nice if they found some other cause besides feeling they have to let us know we're sinners and need them to save us from ourselves.  
Here's hoping.


Apropos of nothing - we are all sinners. All of us. Every single human is less than perfect in some way. Christians have a duty to tell others that following the teachings of Jesus - love, forgiveness, caring for the unfortunate and those less well off than ourselves, etc, etc - is the right way forward to being better people than we are now.
Just like members of other faiths probably have a duty to spread the word too.
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#5 Godeskian

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 03:47 AM

View PostChakoteya, on May 7 2007, 09:09 AM, said:

Apropos of nothing - we are all sinners.

Only in religions which accept the concept of sin. Not all of them do, and almost no secular philosophies do. Sin isn't quite uniquely a Christian concept, but it is very nearly so.

Quote

Just like members of other faiths probably have a duty to spread the word too.

I personally find strident prostelysing obnoxious when it comes from total strangers.

I hope this works as an edit, if not i'll edit again.

Edited by Godeskian, 07 May 2007 - 07:36 AM.

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#6 G1223

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:59 AM

Worse to those who are followers and have to explain why the jerk cannot simply stand ready when someone asks a question of about their faith.

The world has enough time to it that a man seeking to find information about a faith can find someone to tell him the merits and if he is a honest man the flaws the faith he follows.
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#7 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:12 AM

Gode, I think you're being unfair to chakoteya.

Now, I don't believe in evangelism except when people come to you - answer questions with respect and patience, and evangelise by living your life as an example. Those are the words I follow. Moreover - even BEING a Christian I've never come across one of these evangelising radio stations  - frankly I wouldn't know where to look, but I don't agree with the "You're going to hell" type of evangelism - in fact I disagree with it on many levels. However, the Christian stance is "I believe Christianity is the right way forward, for you as well as me." - there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think it's fair to say someone is not allowed to share their faith. My faith is a big part of me and I'm not allowed to share it in today's society. Is it really surprising that Christians get frustrated?

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#8 Godeskian

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:35 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Gode, I think you're being unfair to chakoteya.

Then I unreservedly apologise, as the comment was not meant to be mean or anything. Rereading it I realise it came off a lot harsher than I intended and I'll edit it accordingly.

Quote

However, the Christian stance is "I believe Christianity is the right way forward, for you as well as me." - there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think it's fair to say someone is not allowed to share their faith. My faith is a big part of me and I'm not allowed to share it in today's society. Is it really surprising that Christians get frustrated?

Nope, not surprising at all. However there is a difference between sharing your faith and prostelysing, at least to me there is.

Plus, I always wonder how the Christians would feel if Muslims or Hindus or for that matter atheists were coming up to them on the streets, shoving pamflets at them and asking them 'Have you heard the word of Allah?' Because I do get that from Christians, and I do find it obnoxious.

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#9 Pixiedust

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:38 AM

View PostGodeskian, on May 7 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

Plus, I always wonder how the Christians would feel if Muslims or Hindus or for that matter atheists were coming up to them on the streets, shoving pamflets at them and asking them 'Have you heard the word of Allah?' Because I do get that from Christians, and I do find it obnoxious.

That's a really good point.

Edited by Beka's Playgirl, 07 May 2007 - 07:38 AM.

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#10 Themis

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:46 AM

What Gode said (both posts before this one!)
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#11 Zwolf

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:58 AM

It'll be nice if they wise up a little, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  Just the other day I watched a couple of Southern Baptist co-workers e-mailing Bush to get him to veto the hate crimes bill because they think it's meant to silence Christians.

Yeah, try to wrap your head around that one... we have to stop there from being laws against hate crimes, because that would prevent Christians from spreading their peace and love.   I still can't quite figure that one.   I mean, call me a radical, but I'd say that if you feel you need the freedom to commit hate crimes so you can spread love, you've strayed from the path just the least lil' bit.  Seriously, if that's the new Jesus, who needs a devil?

I know I make fun of 'em sometimes, but... must they go out of their way to justify me?

Anyway, turns out they were just doing their part in a larger, organized movement.  So some evangelicals may be seeing the absurdity that things are are becoming, but plenty of others are going right ahead into the pandemonium, enthusiastically...

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#12 Nonny

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:18 AM

View PostChakoteya, on May 7 2007, 01:09 AM, said:

Apropos of nothing - we are all sinners. All of us.
This one's a real cash cow for the folks who run the religious industrial complex.  Nothing empties pockets into the collection plate like shame and guilt.  

Quote

Every single human is less than perfect in some way.
So?  

Quote

Christians have a duty to tell others that following the teachings of Jesus - love, forgiveness, caring for the unfortunate and those less well off than ourselves, etc, etc - is the right way forward to being better people than we are now.
"Tell"?  How about living those teachings?  I know I'd be impressed.  Whether I'd be a Christian is a whole nother matter.  

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#13 Shalamar

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 11:09 AM

In most wiccan traditions prostelysing is not encouraged in the least. We'll answer questions - if asked, we'll teach - if asked, but you won't see us on the street corners, much less going door to door, and to presume that my way is right for anyone else, even another wiccan, just wrong beyond words.

So no I don't believe that any one else has the right to tell me that their way is the best way for me. They may feel they have a duty to, but their duty ends where my right begins.

And the Wiccan religion is one of those that Gode mentioned - sorry, we don't do sin.
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#14 G1223

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 01:02 PM

View PostGodeskian, on May 7 2007, 08:35 AM, said:

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Gode, I think you're being unfair to chakoteya.

Then I unreservedly apologise, as the comment was not meant to be mean or anything. Rereading it I realise it came off a lot harsher than I intended and I'll edit it accordingly.

Quote

However, the Christian stance is "I believe Christianity is the right way forward, for you as well as me." - there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think it's fair to say someone is not allowed to share their faith. My faith is a big part of me and I'm not allowed to share it in today's society. Is it really surprising that Christians get frustrated?

Nope, not surprising at all. However there is a difference between sharing your faith and prostelysing, at least to me there is.

Plus, I always wonder how the Christians would feel if Muslims or Hindus or for that matter atheists were coming up to them on the streets, shoving pamflets at them and asking them 'Have you heard the word of Allah?' Because I do get that from Christians, and I do find it obnoxious.


We do they are from the local black muslim community and we usally place their pamlet in the nearest trash can. We do not make a rude show of it. They are the local Louis Farakan group so most folks do the same. But no one tries to stop them from doing their thing as long as they do not turn violent.
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#15 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 01:25 PM

Quote

Plus, I always wonder how the Christians would feel if Muslims or Hindus or for that matter atheists were coming up to them on the streets, shoving pamflets at them and asking them 'Have you heard the word of Allah?' Because I do get that from Christians, and I do find it obnoxious.

You think Christians don't constantly get attempts to be "shown the light" by atheists? To answer your question, I wouldn't be remotely surprised, and I doubt many other Christians would be surprised or offended either. Like I say, I don't agree with that kind of evangelism, but I don't see why you think I'd be offended if, say, a hindu tried it. I'd say "I'm good thanks" as I do to every other pamphlet giver-outer in leaflet-central (the union).

Quote

This one's a real cash cow for the folks who run the religious industrial complex. Nothing empties pockets into the collection plate like shame and guilt.

That's simply not true, and is a completely unfair generalisation that I don't appreciate. The church asks for money for upkeep and to fund the charities the church runs. When I avail myself of the church's services every week it doesn't seem much to ask. Financially, most churches are constantly struggling. Many churches prefer not to mention money at all. The notion that people go to church to be shamed and made guilty is ridiculous. If church wasn't fun, I wouldn't go. Church is meant to be enjoyable, educational, and a time for prayer and worship. Sometimes it's right to reflect, but the whole point of Christianity is the hope we have in God. To imply we go, get emotionally blackmailed out of cash and then leave is simply false.

Quote

So?
I think that's precisely the point she was making actually.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 07 May 2007 - 01:26 PM.

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#16 Zwolf

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 03:43 PM

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You think Christians don't constantly get attempts to be "shown the light" by atheists?

I can safely say I've never tried to take anyone's religion away from them unless they were really going out of their way to push it on me.   I had a woman once who was determined to "convert" me, so I went back at it with her, and she ended up throwing her Bible in the trash.  (I fished it out... it's a good book, even if it's fiction ;) ).  She ended up being happier with non-belief, too.  And if anyone discusses it with me, I'll argue my side, because that's what one does... but, I never go out of my way to "witness" atheism to anybody.  I think it's obnoxious when people do it to me, so I wouldn't do it to them.  Besides, most people can handle their religion okay... I don't feel any need to deprive them of it.  

I'm certain there are pushy and obnoxious atheists out there who want to go "preaching" it, but I haven't run into any.  Usually when we want to spread the word, we write a book.  Not only can that not be forced on anybody, it'll cost ya around ten bucks! :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
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And I'll feel even better
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Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
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Trying to talk to you."
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#17 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 03:49 PM

Well Zwolf, let me mirror what you said. I don't evangelise to people like that either. You get those types on either side, huh? Some people are just like that.

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#18 Lin731

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 03:56 PM

Quote

That's simply not true, and is a completely unfair generalisation that I don't appreciate. The church asks for money for upkeep and to fund the charities the church runs. When I avail myself of the church's services every week it doesn't seem much to ask. Financially, most churches are constantly struggling. Many churches prefer not to mention money at all. The notion that people go to church to be shamed and made guilty is ridiculous. If church wasn't fun, I wouldn't go. Church is meant to be enjoyable, educational, and a time for prayer and worship. Sometimes it's right to reflect, but the whole point of Christianity is the hope we have in God. To imply we go, get emotionally blackmailed out of cash and then leave is simply false.

I hate to say it Sparky but having grown up going to Baptist churches (many of them with that southern Baptist hellfire and brimstone R'Us approach) I have to say that in my own personal experience many churches do play the guilt card for money. I have Catholic friends who've said the same thing. I went to church 3 times a week as a kid, many of those years in attending Baptist churches and the ones I attended did spend a good portion of their time basically telling you how much you sucked as a person. As a teenager it seemed that anything we did, short of breathing in and out, was a sin that you needed to "Get right with God about". So maybe your church or your particular demonination isn't like that but trust me when I say, many of the are like that.
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#19 Zwolf

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 04:05 PM

Quote

Well Zwolf, let me mirror what you said. I don't evangelise to people like that either. You get those types on either side, huh? Some people are just like that.

I believe ya.  I'm around literally thousands of Christians around here, and hardly any of 'em ever start witnessing to me.  Most people keep their beliefs (or non-beliefs) to themselves, unless it's brought up for some reason, and that's how it should be.  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#20 Nonny

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 04:44 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

That's simply not true.
It simply is.  

Nonny
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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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