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give up on abortion, the gay thing, even far right gop?

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#21 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 04:58 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on May 5 2007, 05:02 PM, said:

It would be nice if they found some other cause besides feeling they have to let us know we're sinners and need them to save us from ourselves.  Today on the readio I turned across a talk radio guy and one of his callers was going on about how the U.S. is like Rome and that if homosexuals get rights then it's over, so melodramatic.  

I have to say the far religious right has turned me off to religion so if the more moderate people who use their faith for inspiration in their lives and good works start getting the headlines I think it would do wonders for God's image.  Of course, I'm an agnostic gay man and I admit I've become prone to taking a negative view of people who claim to be Christians as soon as they say they are one b/c of the Falwells, Haggards, Phelps, and Dobsons of the world.

Here's hoping.

And, back to the topic...

I think the point is that every evangelical Christian is NOT "far right."  In fact - the attempt to align any faith-based movement with a political one is doomed for failure precisely because of what this article is talking about.  Evangelical christians are deeply concerned about sin of all types - not just homosexual behavior, or abortion.  However, some of those issues fall to the right, and some of those issues fall to the left. Any sincere believer ought not to align with one or the other - because neither is going to actually be exactly right - because no political movement is "divinely guided."  Simple as that.

So yes - evangelicals aren't going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly thing homosexual behavior is peachy-keen, but lots of them are waking up to the threat of global warming, and taking seriously their belief that they are stewards of the Earth.  

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#22 Rhea

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 05:15 PM

If you read the article carefully, there are some interesting hypotheses - that there is a whole new generation of evangelical Christians coming up who doesn't care whether gay people get to marry or not, and who are very concerned about global warming, for one.

What this indicates to me is no huge surprise - the concerns of one generation are never exactly mimicked by the following one.

Edited by Rhea, 07 May 2007 - 09:27 PM.

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#23 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 05:42 PM

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I hate to say it Sparky but having grown up going to Baptist churches (many of them with that southern Baptist hellfire and brimstone R'Us approach) I have to say that in my own personal experience many churches do play the guilt card for money. I have Catholic friends who've said the same thing. I went to church 3 times a week as a kid, many of those years in attending Baptist churches and the ones I attended did spend a good portion of their time basically telling you how much you sucked as a person. As a teenager it seemed that anything we did, short of breathing in and out, was a sin that you needed to "Get right with God about". So maybe your church or your particular demonination isn't like that but trust me when I say, many of the are like that.

My denomination is Anglican / CofE.

I think that might be a Bible belt issue. In the UK....I've never come across that. A very small minority of churches may be like that, but in general? Definitely not.

It used to be the case in Blake's era in the UK, but nowadays...like I say, I'd be very surprised if I entered an Anglican/ CofE or Baptist church that did that.

You could be right- obviously I've not been in every church ever, but my experiences do range from Southern village church to Northern city church. I also base it on the fact that all of my Christian friends enjoy church - and they are smart enough so that they would NOT go if it were an emotional blackmail thing.

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#24 Bobby

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 05:54 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 7 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

View PostLife for Rent, on May 5 2007, 05:02 PM, said:

It would be nice if they found some other cause besides feeling they have to let us know we're sinners and need them to save us from ourselves.  Today on the readio I turned across a talk radio guy and one of his callers was going on about how the U.S. is like Rome and that if homosexuals get rights then it's over, so melodramatic.  

I have to say the far religious right has turned me off to religion so if the more moderate people who use their faith for inspiration in their lives and good works start getting the headlines I think it would do wonders for God's image.  Of course, I'm an agnostic gay man and I admit I've become prone to taking a negative view of people who claim to be Christians as soon as they say they are one b/c of the Falwells, Haggards, Phelps, and Dobsons of the world.

Here's hoping.

And, back to the topic...

I think the point is that every evangelical Christian is NOT "far right."  In fact - the attempt to align any faith-based movement with a political one is doomed for failure precisely because of what this article is talking about.  Evangelical christians are deeply concerned about sin of all types - not just homosexual behavior, or abortion.  However, some of those issues fall to the right, and some of those issues fall to the left. Any sincere believer ought not to align with one or the other - because neither is going to actually be exactly right - because no political movement is "divinely guided."  Simple as that.

So yes - evangelicals aren't going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly thing homosexual behavior is peachy-keen, but lots of them are waking up to the threat of global warming, and taking seriously their belief that they are stewards of the Earth.  

QT

And it's their right to believe that something is a sin but putting things into perspective would be a nice change.  While they've been throwing a fit over gays, something between the people commiting the homosexual act and god, what more beneficial works could they have been devoting that much attention to in the world?  If you read the Bible homosexuals have always been here, even if it is condemned.  As has been pointed out numerous times on this board, there are other "abominations" that are listed in the same chapter but it's gone out of fashion to pay heed to them.  The truth of the matter is that homosexuals make people uncomfortable even without the Bible passages condeming us.  And that's the main reason that the Religious Right has gotten away with vilifying us for so long.  

But now there are more homosexuals than ever, and we are all someone's family members, even if they disapprove of the act they will defend us.  The RR knows they are gonna lose this one so why not just move to something more beneficial?  They believe that homosexuals learn it in childhood.  They always like to go on about how science hasn't proven that we are born gay, but it hasn't disproven it yet, and research is showing that we probably are.  Oh, ho, they say, but they still choose to act on the feelings.  That's right, and it's a little something called none of their damned business.


And even if science doesn't bare it out soon it doesn't account for the fact their are homosexuals from all different upbringings and cultures so there is no common denominator. I know I was born gay the same way any straight person here knows they are straight.  If you believe some of the people on the right everyone is just homosexual if they would allow themselves to be.  I think the truth is, the Ted Haggard's have been in charge of the Religious intitutions for a while.  They can't control their own temptations, especially if homosexuality were around.  Really, go forth and multiply, but Priests don't have to obey the CREATOR'S main commandment?  Their only focus is to be god and his work?  A pope can override a commandment of GOD?

Someone here once compared homosexuality to bankrobbing.  No, a comparable thing would be a blowjob or anal sex between a man and a woman or sex out of wedlock.  Sure, for dramatic flair it's called an abomination but so are mixed blends and shrimp and as I said those are all okay now.   I sometimes watch religious broadcasting, there was a black preacher out of Los Angeles, he was on WGN on the satelite, and he was preaching against homosexuality but he didn't stop there, he was talking about any kind of sex beyond the kind for missionary procreation.  Even if I didn't like what he was saying, he wasn't letting the straight people in his crowd off the hook either.

Of course, we do have to remember, America is now Rome, Soddam, and Gamorrah, so the global warming is punishment for us homosexuals via Robertson and Phelps.  Couldn't be that people love to drive and consume more than their fair share.  No, you could be a homosexual envirnmentalist and it would all land at your doorstep still.  Hell, if they want to really worry about getting people to not sin, the first one they should be confronting is the obesity epic in their own ranks.  The body is a temple and doing harmful things to your body is slow suicide, and it's wrong to kill yourself, or so they claim when they won't allow doctor assisted suicide for people who are dying horribly.  I'm just glad I'm not religious, but I do think there might be higher power.

#25 ArdenCabbel

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:11 PM

First off, let me state that I am a Southern Baptist.  My church is very conservative and makes it's decisions based on the bible's lead.

My view on homosexual couples is this.  I believe that Marriage is a commitment made under God.  It is against my beliefs that man and man, and woman and woman couples should be considered Married (as I believe that God set it forth as one man one woman).  I have absoultely no problem with civil unions, life partners, same sex families, or any other term that people would like to call it.  I really don't.  I have no problem with same sex couples having the same rights and responsibilities.  My problem is simply homosexual 'marriage'.  I am not going to attack homosexuals for being homosexual.  In the end that is between the person and God.  If asked, I would tell them my beliefs on it (taken from the bible).

I am tired of hearing politicians say that civil unions should never be allowed.  It is up to the individual whom they wish to spend their life with.

Abortion is another thing, but I refuse to get into that topic.

To survive, both parties need to change the questions.  Most of the time, the first thing I know about a canidate is their position on abortion and homosexual marriage.  These are not the only topics that matter, and frankly I think it is about time they be pushed aside from the spotlight (not forgotten) for different concerns.  The environment, ecomomy, and our enemies should be the first things asked about today.  I want to know what a canidate is going to do to protect the environment, stregthen the economy, and how they are going to handle our enemies (and yes we do have them).
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#26 Vapor Trails

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:25 PM

View PostGodeskian, on May 7 2007, 04:47 AM, said:

I personally find strident prostelysing obnoxious when it comes from total strangers.

What Gode said.

I absolutely HATE it when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door. :angry: In my case, they're mostly Hispanic, and they ALWAYS ask if there are Spanish-speakers in the house. :sarcasm: I tell them "no". They say, "Thank you' and leave. :p  What do they have-some radar for finding Spanish-speaking people?!  :wacko:

In case you don't know-I'm Hispanic (part Puerto Rican, part Venezuelan). One day, I caught my mom talking to one of these Jehovah's Witnesses. Now, my mom is sickly, and these FOOLS have diarrhea of the mouth-in other words, YAP-YAP-YAP-YAP. So, I interrupted the conversation. I said, "Look-I'm sorry, but we're busy, and my mom is sick."

My mom wanted to chat a little more, but I insisted that it was enough. The JW lady made the mistake of trying to continue, and I gave the woman a dirty look, and repeated again-in a less friendly voice, "Look-I'm sorry, but we're busy, and my mom is sick. Please leave. Now."

The woman got the hint. She left.

Schmucks. :angry:

Edited by Digital Man, 07 May 2007 - 06:26 PM.

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#27 Hambil

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:35 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

You think Christians don't constantly get attempts to be "shown the light" by atheists?
My attempts at such have usually come on the heals of Christians telling me that homosexuals are sinners and sex other than for procreation is a sin, and evolution is a sin, and abortion is murder and a sin, and...

If someone is going to be publicly, aggressively, stupid - and try to force me to be so, too - then yeah, they're getting a piece of my mind.

#28 Godeskian

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:14 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 07:25 PM, said:

You think Christians don't constantly get attempts to be "shown the light" by atheists?

You might be angry at me for this, but yeah that's pretty much what I think. I think that the number of atheists going door to door trying to convince people to reject religion is so miniscule as to be nonexistant compared to religious people doing it. I think the number of atheists standing around on street corners telling me i'm living in sin is so miniscule as to be nonexistent. I think that I have in my entire life never been approached on the street by someone in a suit and told "Have you accepted Charles Darwin as your personal saviour'

I think that religions who number amongst their rules things like prostelysing are a damn site more likely to go out and do that than a doctrine that has no rules whatsoever except 'there's no God'.

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#29 scherzo

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

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My attempts at such have usually come on the heals of Christians telling me that homosexuals are sinners and sex other than for procreation is a sin, and evolution is a sin, and abortion is murder and a sin, and...

If someone is going to be publicly, aggressively, stupid - and try to force me to be so, too - then yeah, they're getting a piece of my mind.
"Sin" itself is a religious concept. Sin is whatever their chosen religion says is sin. It isn't really possible to "correct" them, unless you can point out a contradiction in the scriptures themselves. Only the person who said "evolution is a sin" would qualify as "stupid" in this example.

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#30 Hambil

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:23 PM

View Postscherzo, on May 7 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

It isn't really possible to "correct" them
Sure it is. Sin is a 'divine' judgment without reason. It isn't based on logic or morality or philosophy. It's based on doctrine and blindly believed and followed. There is nothing intelligent about that. The definition of intelligence is "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding". The arguments against homosexuality are entirely based on hate and fear - not independent thinking.

If the Christian God actually existed, with his infinite mercy and wisdom, instead of being just a political, social and individual tools for coping and controlling, he's say "Love is never a sin." He wouldn't care if a man loved another man.

Evolution may have harder, more obvious science behind it, but morality can be determined outside of any religious context and many very smart people have devoted lifetimes to doing just that. Our entire system of law and justice imposes a moral code outside of religious context.

So, I disagree that calling homosexuality a sin, or abortion a sin, or sex for pleasure a sin, can't be quantified as stupid.

#31 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:27 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on May 7 2007, 06:54 PM, said:

And it's their right to believe that something is a sin but putting things into perspective would be a nice change.  While they've been throwing a fit over gays, something between the people commiting the homosexual act and god, what more beneficial works could they have been devoting that much attention to in the world?  If you read the Bible homosexuals have always been here, even if it is condemned.  As has been pointed out numerous times on this board, there are other "abominations" that are listed in the same chapter but it's gone out of fashion to pay heed to them.  The truth of the matter is that homosexuals make people uncomfortable even without the Bible passages condeming us.  And that's the main reason that the Religious Right has gotten away with vilifying us for so long.

I respect your frustration on this issue, but as I said - I'm trying to stick to the topic here.  The thread posed the question - will the far right give up on abortion & gay issues, and included an article that went on to explain what I said - namely that evangelical christianity is not inherently "far right."  Rather - there are issues that it is passionate about - and these issues are not all on the right - some are on the left.  

While I get it that you want to make a point about how horrible the people who harp on homosexual behavior as sin are, or how wrong they are, or however else you feel - the fact remains that the thread and article are about examining what OTHER priorities the evangelical christian movement has, and how that may or may not shape the political landscape.

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#32 Rhea

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:31 PM

View PostLin731, on May 7 2007, 01:56 PM, said:

Quote

That's simply not true, and is a completely unfair generalisation that I don't appreciate. The church asks for money for upkeep and to fund the charities the church runs. When I avail myself of the church's services every week it doesn't seem much to ask. Financially, most churches are constantly struggling. Many churches prefer not to mention money at all. The notion that people go to church to be shamed and made guilty is ridiculous. If church wasn't fun, I wouldn't go. Church is meant to be enjoyable, educational, and a time for prayer and worship. Sometimes it's right to reflect, but the whole point of Christianity is the hope we have in God. To imply we go, get emotionally blackmailed out of cash and then leave is simply false.

I hate to say it Sparky but having grown up going to Baptist churches (many of them with that southern Baptist hellfire and brimstone R'Us approach) I have to say that in my own personal experience many churches do play the guilt card for money. I have Catholic friends who've said the same thing. I went to church 3 times a week as a kid, many of those years in attending Baptist churches and the ones I attended did spend a good portion of their time basically telling you how much you sucked as a person. As a teenager it seemed that anything we did, short of breathing in and out, was a sin that you needed to "Get right with God about". So maybe your church or your particular demonination isn't like that but trust me when I say, many of the are like that.

That makes two of us, Lin (I didn't know you were raised Southern Baptist!). I had exactly the same experience, and as soon as I was old enough, I ran, not walked, away. I don't want to belong to a religion where there are more "don'ts" than "do's."

That's pretty much why I ended up an agnostic (although I go to an Episcopal mass occasionally - I enjoy them and find them meditative).
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#33 Godeskian

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:33 PM

View PostHambil, on May 8 2007, 03:23 AM, said:

Evolution may have harder, more obvious science behind it, but morality can be determined outside of any religious context and many very smart people have devoted lifetimes to doing just that. Our entire system of law and justice imposes a moral code outside of religious context.

So, I disagree that calling homosexuality a sin, or abortion a sin, or sex for pleasure a sin, can't be quantified as stupid.

The greeks were coming up with moral and ethical philosophies that didn't include Gods half a millenium before Christ was alledgedly born

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#34 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 09:39 PM

View PostHambil, on May 7 2007, 10:23 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on May 7 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

It isn't really possible to "correct" them
Sure it is. Sin is a 'divine' judgment without reason. It isn't based on logic or morality or philosophy. It's based on doctrine and blindly believed and followed. There is nothing intelligent about that. The definition of intelligence is "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding". The arguments against homosexuality are entirely based on hate and fear - not independent thinking.

That's one interpretation.  Another is that divine judgment serves a function of helping humanity move in a direction that is better for it.  (Despite different interpretations of "hellfire and damnation" I believe that hellfire and damnation are our own interpretations and not God's condemnation.  Feel free to ask more about that if you'd like me to clarify.)

Quote

If the Christian God actually existed, with his infinite mercy and wisdom, instead of being just a political, social and individual tools for coping and controlling, he's say "Love is never a sin." He wouldn't care if a man loved another man.

Some people believe that love is love, and that there are ways of expressing love.  A woman may love a man who isn't her husband - and she may have a husband already. (The reverse may be true).  Is it right for her to act on her feelings sexually, despite her commitment? Is there something more for her to learn about herself, about the nature of love, than to just act?  Is there some inherent good about being tested - even by love?  God doesn't condemn love.  If you go by the bible - it specifies acts - not the feelings of the heart.  I'm not going by the Bible, so my interpretation is likely different, but I offer it for consideration that a God who loves humanity might indeed impose strictures upon humanity that pose difficulties and challenges, tests, and obstacles - and it may all be for our good.  Sometimes living with the strictures are the best way to find out what else we're made of... what God knows about us that we don't know about ourselves.

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#35 Bobby

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:01 PM

From the article since no one, including the thread starter actually quoted anything other than saying the conservatives might be moving on from gay and abortion issues, so, yes, I was on topic. If the person starting the topic doesn't frame the debate it can go anywhere.  But I'll play:


http://abcnews.go.co...=3138468&page=1

Quote

Tackling Children Without Families
The latest example is adoption. Prominent evangelical Christians are telling their followers to strongly consider adoption or foster care. But they deny suggestions they are doing so to answer criticism that their movement hasn't done enough for children without families.

"Absolutely not. We're not doing this to respond to criticism. This is all about the children," Mark Andre, Director of The Orphan Care Initiative at Focus on the Family in Colorado Springs, Colorado told ABCNEWS.com. "God wants us to care for the orphan, the widow, the prisoner, the sick and ailing and the stranger."

p://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3138468&page=2

Quote

Christopher Padbury, executive director of Project 1.27, a faith-based adoption project partnering with the State of Colorado, has also led by example and adopted five children. "If we are spending all our time complaining about homosexuals, then why are we not coming forward to adopt these kids" he told The Associated Press.

I can't say that I don't have to wonder if they aren't doing this so that they can snatch up all the kids so gays can't adopt them.  Of course, it does have the benefit of making them not seem like such hypocrites over abortion, they are finally paying heed to the children that are already here.  I find it hilarious that they went all these years while there were always orphans and suddenly, NOW they are a concern?  Yeah, riiiiiight.  Better late than never.


Quote

A letter from several older evangelical leaders including James Dobson, chairman of Focus on the Family, said they were not convinced that global warming has been caused by man or that it can be prevented. They went on to criticize the Rev. Richard Cizik, the National Association of Evangelicals' vice president for government affairs, accusing him of trying to lead the movement away from what they consider to be more important issues like homosexuality and abortion.

Seems like some of them can't let go of that gay issue, uh oh, it was referenced again in the article, still on topic.


http://abcnews.go.co...=3138468&page=4

Quote

Some surveys show 25 to 40 per-cent of evangelicals cannot support a Mormon candidate. This poses a challenge for Governor Romney. It's an issue he needs to address," said Green. "But if he were to win the primary a lot of evangelicals will vote for him because even being a Mormon he'd be better than a Democrat. Rudy Giuliani might be a good president but he won't press hard on the evangelical agenda." Evangelicals' Political PowerNearly everyone interviewed for this article pointed out that evangelicals are frustrated because they believe that their support for Republicans resulted in little change that would benefit their core issues.

That said, the chances for Democrats running away with the evangelical vote are slim.

"Our people aren't for Democrats," said columnist Dreher. "They are simply sick of Republicans, the so called grand coalition, the fusionist coalition that came about after Goldwater held pretty well since Reagan brought it to power. But now, that's out of gas, it's gone."


Quote

offworlder:  hhmmm, could this be real, a real trend? could this change the colour of even ... our debates?

To answer the question posed, based on the article, no, they aren't so much switching gears as they are just picking up their ball and bat and going home because the Republicans failed to get them on the road to the theocracy they so desperately want.

Edited by Life for Rent, 07 May 2007 - 10:09 PM.


#36 scherzo

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 11:03 PM

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Sure it is. Sin is a 'divine' judgment without reason. It isn't based on logic or morality or philosophy. It's based on doctrine and blindly believed and followed. There is nothing intelligent about that. The definition of intelligence is "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding". The arguments against homosexuality are entirely based on hate and fear - not independent thinking.

If the Christian God actually existed, with his infinite mercy and wisdom, instead of being just a political, social and individual tools for coping and controlling, he's say "Love is never a sin." He wouldn't care if a man loved another man.

Evolution may have harder, more obvious science behind it, but morality can be determined outside of any religious context and many very smart people have devoted lifetimes to doing just that. Our entire system of law and justice imposes a moral code outside of religious context.

So, I disagree that calling homosexuality a sin, or abortion a sin, or sex for pleasure a sin, can't be quantified as stupid.
Sin is whatever the religious doctrine in question says it is. You're making a rather broad critique of religion in general, which misses the point I was making about the definition of a specific word.

What I've realized is, most people end up worshiping a moral doctrine of some kind, be it secular or religious. Neither faction is immune from the instinct to spread their "truth" to the otherwise ignorant masses. Somehow with all the lip service hardcore atheists give to the notion of "independent thinking", their attitude often demonstrates how little value they actually place on it. "Think for yourself...as long as you think as we do". Heck, you've even managed to carefully explain what "infinite mercy and wisdom" should mean to your custom-made diety. All that's needed now are a few showbizzy sacraments and a name to go above the chapel. :)

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#37 Hambil

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 11:14 PM

View Postscherzo, on May 7 2007, 09:03 PM, said:

What I've realized is, most people end up worshiping a moral doctrine of some kind, be it secular or religious. Neither faction is immune from the instinct to spread their "truth" to the otherwise ignorant masses.
As much as you, and many others would like that to be true it's simply not. I don't worship anything. And my 'beliefs' are based on cumulative knowledge and making the best decision I can at the time, given what I know. My beliefs can change, very easily and very quickly if more becomes known because they are based on knowledge and yes, independent thinking.

Being open minded and thinking independently doesn't mean you have to accept every silly statement or belief. The moon is not made of cheese, there is no Santa Claus, and there is no God. Bring me any kind of evidence and I'll change my mind, because I am open minded - I'm just not a fool.

#38 Nonny

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 12:35 AM

View PostGodeskian, on May 7 2007, 05:14 PM, said:

View PostSparkyCola, on May 7 2007, 07:25 PM, said:

You think Christians don't constantly get attempts to be "shown the light" by atheists?

You might be angry at me for this, but yeah that's pretty much what I think. I think that the number of atheists going door to door trying to convince people to reject religion is so miniscule as to be nonexistant compared to religious people doing it. I think the number of atheists standing around on street corners telling me i'm living in sin is so miniscule as to be nonexistent. I think that I have in my entire life never been approached on the street by someone in a suit and told "Have you accepted Charles Darwin as your personal saviour'

I think that religions who number amongst their rules things like prostelysing are a damn site more likely to go out and do that than a doctrine that has no rules whatsoever except 'there's no God'.
What Gode said!  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#39 Nonny

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 12:48 AM

View PostRhea, on May 7 2007, 07:31 PM, said:

View PostLin731, on May 7 2007, 01:56 PM, said:

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That's simply not true, and is a completely unfair generalisation that I don't appreciate. The church asks for money for upkeep and to fund the charities the church runs. When I avail myself of the church's services every week it doesn't seem much to ask. Financially, most churches are constantly struggling. Many churches prefer not to mention money at all. The notion that people go to church to be shamed and made guilty is ridiculous. If church wasn't fun, I wouldn't go. Church is meant to be enjoyable, educational, and a time for prayer and worship. Sometimes it's right to reflect, but the whole point of Christianity is the hope we have in God. To imply we go, get emotionally blackmailed out of cash and then leave is simply false.

I hate to say it Sparky but having grown up going to Baptist churches (many of them with that southern Baptist hellfire and brimstone R'Us approach) I have to say that in my own personal experience many churches do play the guilt card for money. I have Catholic friends who've said the same thing. I went to church 3 times a week as a kid, many of those years in attending Baptist churches and the ones I attended did spend a good portion of their time basically telling you how much you sucked as a person. As a teenager it seemed that anything we did, short of breathing in and out, was a sin that you needed to "Get right with God about". So maybe your church or your particular demonination isn't like that but trust me when I say, many of the are like that.

That makes two of us, Lin (I didn't know you were raised Southern Baptist!). I had exactly the same experience, and as soon as I was old enough, I ran, not walked, away. I don't want to belong to a religion where there are more "don'ts" than "do's."

That's pretty much why I ended up an agnostic (although I go to an Episcopal mass occasionally - I enjoy them and find them meditative).
And I grew up Catholic, and not only was the guilt card played, but the shame card as well.  We were issued boxes of little envelopes for our Sunday "donation", so not only did our teachers know who missed mass, but also how much of our tiny allowances we handed over to the folks that wore the silk and jewels.  And we were judged, boy were we judged, and held up to ridicule if they didn't consider it enough.  I left when I was 18.  About 15 years ago I was received into the Episcopal church, and I still maintain friendly relations, though I no longer attend.  It pains me that that horrible man from Nigeria is causing so much trouble for the Episcopalians and the Canadian Anglicans over gay marriage and ordination and women priests and bishops.  He's a pestilence and an abomination, and he's interfering in another primate's territory, a major Anglican no no.  The Archbishop of Canterbury needs to put a stop to it, but unfortunately, he's not up to the task.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#40 scherzo

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 01:26 AM

View PostHambil, on May 7 2007, 11:14 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on May 7 2007, 09:03 PM, said:

What I've realized is, most people end up worshiping a moral doctrine of some kind, be it secular or religious. Neither faction is immune from the instinct to spread their "truth" to the otherwise ignorant masses.
As much as you, and many others would like that to be true it's simply not.
Sure it is.(I hope you didn't have that copyrighted :dontgetit: )

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I don't worship anything. And my 'beliefs' are based on cumulative knowledge and making the best decision I can at the time, given what I know. My beliefs can change, very easily and very quickly if more becomes known because they are based on knowledge and yes, independent thinking.

Being open minded and thinking independently doesn't mean you have to accept every silly statement or belief. The moon is not made of cheese, there is no Santa Claus, and there is no God. Bring me any kind of evidence and I'll change my mind, because I am open minded - I'm just not a fool.
I'm not interested in changing your mind about religion. I'm challenging the idea that hardcore atheists  are any less disposed to making moral judgements, than the most devout Christian. The only really noteworthy difference is, Christians are far less likely to determine everyone else is simply stupider than they are. I don't think you're a "fool" either, but for all your cumulative knowledge, you're still vastly underestimating a rather sizeable chunk of people.

-scherzo
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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