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Sharpton on Mormons

Media Al Sharpton Mormons 2007

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#1 Hambil

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:40 AM

link

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During a debate on religion and politics at the New York Public Library with atheist author Christopher Hitchens, Sharpton said, "As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so don't worry about that. That's a temporary situation."
He then added, but I love him, and forgive him, as Jesus would have wanted.













* Hambil Sarcasm and Irony Factorytm restored and operational.

Edited by Hambil, 10 May 2007 - 12:40 AM.


#2 Nonny

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:24 AM

Here's a commentary:  

Stop the Presses: Al Sharpton's a Hatemongering Hypocrite  (126 comments )

Quote

File this one under the heading THINGS WE ALREADY KNOW, right next to "water is wet" and "sunshine is warm." Al Sharpton is a hypocrite. And a hatemongering one at that.

When we were last visited by - or rather forced to endure - Reverend Al, he was once again snatching up the scepter of media-anointed spokesman for All Things Black.

It was the heady days of the Affair Imus. The women of the Rutgers B-ball team had the kink of their hair and the level of their sexuality called into question by the I-Man. Al, as Al is wont to do, took it upon himself to act without invitation and speak for those who were perfectly capable of speaking for themselves (for those keeping score, that's hypocrisy number one).

Toward the tail end of that TV news cycle whipped storm, when it was pointed out to Al that a variation of Imus's rant could be heard with an exponent in heavy rotation within a certain variety of rap music, Al promised to go at the extreme ends of the music business with the same camera-whoring zeal with which he attacked Imus.

On the 12th it will have been a month since Imus was dropped by CBS.

Though I make a point of closely following the news, I was apparently otherwise occupied during the ten minutes Al was flogging his big Anti-misogyny in Music Campaign.

Or so I thought.

As it turns out, it was Al who was otherwise occupied. Rather than take on misogyny, the man who decried there was no place in the culture for hateful language...well, he went out and fresh-brewed some hate talk of his own....

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#3 Kosh

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:17 AM

Quote

Al Sharpton is a hypocrite



I'd love to have it on a bumper sticker.
Can't Touch This!!

#4 Spectacles

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:08 PM

On the bright side, maybe this will shut Sharpton the hell up for a while. He was gathering entirely too much of a head of self-righteous steam after his role in getting Imus fired.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#5 Cait

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:15 PM

Every time the topic of Mormons comes up, I actually wince.  I was raised a Mormon and I know all of the problematic theology, but I also know that community VERY well.

While they may not adhere to what "Christians" consider the "true" faith, Mormons are absolute in their faith and commitment to their community.  Even though I no longer practice that religion, I never questioned their faith or their commitment to Christ or God.  They are a good and faithful people for the most part [there are always a few bad apples in any group].

I had theological disagreements, but then I've had theological disagreements with any Church I investigated and it is why to this day I do not identify with an organized religion.  [although I consider myself spiritual]  But those theological difference never tainted my view of a good people who 'believe' in their religion with all of their soul.  They are not once a week Christians.  They practice their religion every single day of the week.  They tithe, they take care of their community themselves, and they are not in debt to anyone.  Even BYU refuses to take Federal money so that they can remain independent of government interference.  

In short, they are good people who practice a religion that not many understand.  Certainly Sharpton does not understand them or he could not have made such a remark.  Sharpton falls into the category of men that consider Mormons a cult and non-Christian.  He feels he is entitled to slander these people because "they aren't true believers".  Most do.

Mormons, like any other non-mainstream religion have peculiar beliefs. In this country that's permissible.  We have freedom of religion and Sharpton should be ashamed of himself, although I know he never will be.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#6 RobL

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:53 PM

View PostKosh, on May 10 2007, 08:17 AM, said:

Quote

Al Sharpton is a hypocrite


I'd love to have it on a bumper sticker.
I'm still looking for one to replace my worn out "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns" sticker that I had for a LONG time, till I lost it.

View PostSpectacles, on May 10 2007, 09:08 AM, said:

On the bright side, maybe this will shut Sharpton the hell up for a while. He was gathering entirely too much of a head of self-righteous steam after his role in getting Imus fired.

Unlikely. I read somewhere that he's saying Rommey is using his "false outrage" about this to enhance his political standing, or some other nonsense like that.

Bring back Darthsikle!


#7 RobL

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 01:04 PM

Quote

In short, they are good people who practice a religion that not many understand. Certainly Sharpton does not understand them or he could not have made such a remark. Sharpton falls into the category of men that consider Mormons a cult and non-Christian. He feels he is entitled to slander these people because "they aren't true believers". Most do.

I was "raised" Lutheran, and they taught during their "indoctrination" that the Mormon Church was a cult, in the same vein as Scientology, Christian Scientists, and other "out there" religious groups. Of course, I took some very different "Valuable Lessons" away from the enforced bible study I had to do, before I was deemed "old enough" to tell them all to piss off. (Namely, ALL organized religion tailors the message to fit their own views and opinions, and twists the ideas around to mean the opposite of what they should. Among other things, of course)

Bring back Darthsikle!


#8 Mr. Synystyr

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:17 PM

:lol:  I was raised Christian Scientist.  None of them that I knew were that "out there", though I realize that some are.  I tried many different churches (my parents were/are reasonably open-minded), including Mormon, and while none of them suited me, I did meet some good people at all of them (as well as the usual hypocrites).  The Mormons certainly didn't believe any less in God than any of the others.  Sharpton just slipped and showed that he's just as prejudiced and narrow-minded as much of our country seems to be today, unfortunately.  I do hope that this slip encourages him to both choose his words more carefully and maybe examine his own beliefs more closely.

...

I know, not much chance of that.  Ah well.

Best to all.

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#9 dogmand

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:28 PM

Disclaimer:  The following post is rather lengthy, contains annoying material, rambling commentary, and just might not be right for you.  Don't say I didn't warn you.  

Right on, Cait.  I agree with you alot, but, probably for different reasons.  Hey, everybody---I'm not intentionally trying to start a Religious Ruckus or anything, but, I'd like to stick up for Al (sort of).  Besides, I still wear my Al Sharpton for President T-shirt around immediately after he makes a stupid comment, just to see if anyone wants to talk about it.   This ain't about that, though.  Like Cait, I grew up with Mormons (although I was a non-believer then, too), and can attest to them being good folks, and, above all, dedicated to family and what they see as essential spiritual and  family values, however, I oppose them as I do any others who mistakenly think their personal Religious values should become law, especially as it affects those who may think differently.  This is not solely an LDS idea, but, is shared by many Religions, apparently.  This of course excludes the obvious like not allowing murder, etc., which are to me Human values, not Religious.  I even attended Mutual (youth group) on Tuesday nights with my LDS friends to meet Chicks, and, of course, to be allowed to keep playing 2nd Base for the local Stake (Parish?)---the LDS sports facilities were far superior to those provided publicly in Vegas at the time, and, I see it as an extension of dedication to youth, but I digress a bit.  Hypocritical?  Perhaps, but, I also played Basketball with friends for MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship), and De Molay (love the Knights Templar).  Anyway, it is comforting that people wish to become better humans through their beliefs, (and, I include all religions who do so).  However,  it is always amusing to me when Religious folks attack each other over who is more Religious, or who is disrespecting who.  It's almost like the East/West Rap-Hip Hop feuds, or something.   I think they're both correct, and, everyone should be free to believe whatever they wish.  However, to me, it is a bit confusing, with so many Religions worldwide to choose from, and, they even make it more difficult by each claiming to have some superior knowledge in some way as to the "right" path.  Sorry, I don't know who to believe, so, I'll just sit this one out, although I do kind of like the Rastafarians, who approve of burning weed.   However, (again), it might be good to review why Al, who is old enough to remember, might still hold a grudge against LDS positions on Blacks from not that long ago.  Like many religions, the LDS have had to modify their acceptance of previous scripture that was too radical for modern times, especially when things like racial equality for all (yes, even sexual equality------women and gays, and, even gay women and men  are becoming problematic). It seems as if any dedicated Bible Jockey can find something in there to support or tear down just about anything folks can think of.  This, of course, is not a free pass to Al, or other Christians, because, as everyone knows, or should know by now, mainstream Christianity's not so good record concerning similar ideas of who is suitable,  is available for examination.  What is especially appaling to me, is the problem Black Anglican Bishops are having with Gays.  Do they not see how absurd their position is, as someone who's been oppressed and stereotyped themselves, and seen as less than worthy?   Surely they have more vision than that.  So, in my mind, followers of the LDS are no more whacked out than anyone else, and deserve as much respect as any other religion that folks might stumble upon purposely, or, by virtue of tradition,  that suits their Spiritual needs.  I kind of like what Rodney King said a few days after getting a serious racial beatdown by LA Cops:  "Can't we all just get along?"   Props to you, Rodney.  So, check this out.

-----------------------------


http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

-------------------------------

However, this is not to say that this is everyone's view at the time, as can be seen by the following post from an LDS supporter.

I thought you might be interested in the following statement by Hugh B. Brown (as quoted in "The Abundant Life," p. 235.) I thought it was especially interesting that he made this statement four years prior to Benson's comments that you quoted. Just some food for thought.

A Civil Rights Statement

    "During recent months, both in Salt Lake City and across the nation, considerable interest has been expressed in the position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the matter of civil rights. We would like it to be known that there is in this Church no doctrine, belief, or practice that is intended to deny the enjoyment of full civil rights by any person regardless of race, color, or creed.

    We say again, as we have said many times before, that we believe that all men are the children of the same God and that it is a moral evil for any person or group of persons to deny any human being the rights to gainful employment, to full educational opportunity, and to every privilege of citizenship, just as it is a moral evil to deny him the right to worship according to the dictates of his own conscience.

    We have consistently and persistently upheld the Constitution of the United States, and as far as we are concerned this means upholding the constitutional rights of every citizen of the United States.

    We call upon all men everywhere, both within and outside the Church, to commit themselves to the establishment of full civil equality for all of God's children. Anything less than this defeats our high ideal of the brotherhood of man." —General Conference, October 6, 1963

---------------

So, I hope that was of some assistance in some way.  Later.

#10 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:28 PM

Hmm.  Here's a quote:

Quote

"In no way did I attack Mormons or the Mormon Church when I responded that other believers, not atheists, would vote against Mr. Romney for purely political reasons," Sharpton said.

To evaluate the validity of this defense, I think we need to hear or read the comments in context. In other words, the structure of this response sounds rhetorical and combative, such as is a typical debate style of Rev. Sharpton. I would need to hear first what Mr. Hitchens said before I judge Sharpton's response.

I do know that many are bigotted against the Mormon church, and others are merely skeptical of their doctrines (which can look the same way, I'm sure).  But I'm not going to pin that tail on Sharpton out of context.

Ah.  Here's some of it:

Quote

But Mr. Sharpton, in a jab at Mitt Romney (and the Mormon religion, which Mr. Hitchens had criticized because it once endorsed racial segregation), added, “As for the one Mormon running for office, those who that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so don’t worry about that, that’s a temporary – that’s a temporary situation.”

So the structure of the argument is such - what about the Mormon religion, which endorsed racial segregation (in contrast to Sharpton's point that the civil rights movement was a faith-based movement) at one point - and the fact that there is currently a Mormon running for office.  Sharpton's response seems, in context, to be the rhetoric I suspect it was... a partisan jibe that didn't come off as well as he'd hoped, but not a jibe at Mormons.

Well, without more of the transcript I can't prove the point, but I think that I can at least make the point that context matters.

QT


QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 10 May 2007 - 02:45 PM.
Added quotes and comments

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#11 dogmand

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:53 PM

QT---I saw the clip, but cannot repeat what Hitchens said exactly, but, I do believe Al (might) have been referring to the fact that it was Hitchen's who was attacking Mormons and being disrespectful , and, he was making light of Atheists like Hithchens and their political clout.  Sounds a bit shaky to me, but, a good recovery if he pulls it off.  I don't know for sure, and, I don't care either way, as I said, it amuses me when Christians have a little tiff about who is more devout, so I kind of like the whole thing.  However, since you've brought up Christopher Hithchens, may I recommend his new book, "God Is Not Great---How Religion Poisons Everything."  Haven't read it yet, but, it is on the way, largely because of his appearance with Al.  I'd be glad to give a free synopsis after I read it, if anyone asks.  I won't hold my breath.

#12 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:59 PM

I'm not overwhelming interested in Hitchen's opinions, based on what I gleaned from the debate (here's a link I forgot to provide): http://empirezone.bl...pton-and-faith/

But I'd be interested in the synopsis when you've read the book. :)

QT

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#13 Cait

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:05 PM

dogmand said:

This ain't about that, though. Like Cait, I grew up with Mormons (although I was a non-believer then, too), and can attest to them being good folks, and, above all, dedicated to family and what they see as essential spiritual and family values, however, I oppose them as I do any others who mistakenly think their personal Religious values should become law, especially as it affects those who may think differently. This is not solely an LDS idea, but, is shared by many Religions, apparently. This of course excludes the obvious like not allowing murder, etc., which are to me Human values, not Religious. I even attended Mutual (youth group) on Tuesday nights with my LDS friends to meet Chicks, and, of course, to be allowed to keep playing 2nd Base for the local Stake (Parish?)---the LDS sports facilities were far superior to those provided publicly in Vegas at the time, and, I see it as an extension of dedication to youth, but I digress a bit.

Ah yes, I remember it well.  Family Home meeting on Monday Night, Mutual on Tuesday, Primary [sitting for the kids] on Wednesday, Seminary every school day before school, and Church on Sunday.  Baseball games on Friday night  [or Basketball in the Cultural center and sometimes a church dance on Saturday night.  It is a full community schedule.  Like I said, they are an insular community.

BTW, thanks for your comments, and like a few others, I'd like you to know that I really am glad you have joined this community.  I so enjoy your posts here.

Edited by Cait, 11 May 2007 - 11:33 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#14 Zwolf

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:12 PM

I got Hitchens' new book, too.  Haven't started reading it yet.  I don't usually read atheist books 'cuz I've already got my own take on it pretty clear in my mind, but some fundamentalist co-workers have been on a major tear lately (to their credit, it's not at me, but just around me) with some really loopy stuff and I felt the need to read something I agreed with as a head-cleaner. :)  

I recommend Sam Harris's The End of Faith.  Great book.  I also read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, which is good.  His arguments aren't quite as strong (he didn't tell me anything I hadn't already thought of myself, and I thought of a few things he didn't... I coulda helped him out!), but he's good with explanations about science and natural selection, and that was interesting.

Back to Sharpton, though... why pick on Mormons?  Their mythology is some of the wackiest, most-easily-shot-apart stuff in all of theology (South Park just ransacked it!), but they usually tend to be such nice people, it's kinda weak to make a target of them.  Kinda like trying to start a fist-fight with Ghandi.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#15 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:16 PM

You kinda miss the point, Zwolf.  Sharpton DIDN'T pick on Mormons.  Hitchens did, and Sharpton responded.


QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#16 Kosh

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:23 PM

Quote

I'm still looking for one to replace my worn out "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns" sticker that I had for a LONG time, till I lost it.

Beauty!! That ones getting a lot of laughs here.
Can't Touch This!!

#17 Zwolf

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:28 PM

Quote

You kinda miss the point, Zwolf. Sharpton DIDN'T pick on Mormons. Hitchens did, and Sharpton responded.

It sounded like Sharpton was being kind of snarky to them, too, though.  

Hitchens picks on everybody... that's a given.  He goes out of his way to be a "contrarian."  He's also an incredible drunk, but, he can be entertaining if ya take him with a grain of salt... :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#18 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:32 PM

Eww.  I don't like drunks.

And yes - I think Sharpton was being snarky, but I think he was mostly being Sharpton - this was a catchy turn of phrase that didn't "catch"

My opinion of course.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#19 RobL

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:40 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 10 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

Eww.  I don't like drunks.

:disappointed:  :waah:  :(

Bring back Darthsikle!


#20 dogmand

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:42 PM

QT, Cait---it's been interesting being on this forum, and, again, I'd like to commend those who participate here regularly on their input, and, ability to debate fairly and acknowledge the views of others, although they may disagree with them, yet interact in a civil way, and, hopefully, learn something along the way, as I have.  This isn't always so elsewhere.  It's a better way to communicate.  I'm glad GIGI introduced me to you folks.  Nice job, Y'all.  BTW, GIGI had a birthday last week at Club Tiny, and the cake was great.



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