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One Reason Why It's Not Enough To Be "Pro-Life"

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#21 Raina

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:05 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 12 2007, 10:31 PM, said:

The solution is therefore very clear.  Give every adult who doesn't have a criminal record for DUI (or other drink/drug affected behaviors), child abuse, spousal abuse, or sexual predation - ONE child to care for. Everyone.  No exceptions - a civic duty to raise one child not your own.
I don't think I can adequately express just how much this idea appalls me. Raising a child is a huge, life-altering investment. What gives anyone, be they the courts or the idiot who got pregnant and couldn't take care of their own child, the right to dictate such a huge part of my life? What's next? Deciding that the child needs a stable, 2 parent family and forcing me into a marriage with someone I don't love for the sake of this child that has been forced into my life?

Not to mention that this will open up a whole new can of worms. If you Force a child on someone, they will probably resent that child. Granted, some people will probably get over it, but what about the people who don't? Should a child have to suffer being raised by a parent who deeply resents them for the career that got destroyed taking time off to raise them? Even if the parent manages to be a good parent despite all this, the fact that this child was forced on them and isn't even theirs will hang over both the child and the parent.

I can honestly say that if this became reality, I would flee the country. I mean, my career would be over anyways. I might as well go somewhere where I can start over and Not have a brat to raise.

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#22 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 06:54 AM

I'm sorry QT but that's an horrific idea, and in my opinion poorly-thought out....I'm with Raina on that one. That idea gives me chills.

I'm generally with DM on this one. It's a complex problem and one that can't easily be solved.

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#23 Godeskian

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:00 AM

I would actually go out and get a DUI just to avoid being saddled with a child I neither want, nor am capable financially or emotionally to take care off.

Horrible idea, and one that oversimplifies both the problem and the resolution.

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#24 Tricia

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:49 AM

View PostDigital Man, on May 12 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

View Posttrikay, on May 12 2007, 07:47 PM, said:

Having a good job that pays very well or a certain amount of money in the bank does not guarantee that your child will turn out well.  That is only providing for their financial well being not their emotional well being.

You've got to be there to teach them values and just show them unconditional love.

True-having a stable job and income is no guarantee the child will turn out all right. Teaching them values and showing them unconditional love helps. However, I stand by the position that not having the proper funds to support yourself-let alone a child-stacks the odds against the child.

I'm not budging on this one. I've seen this first-hand.


I agree that being poor does not help but this is another one of those things that does not need to be legislated.

Good grief, they are trying to do enough of that already with other issues. :rolleyes:

And i do agree that there needs to be some ideas coming forth from the pro-life groups as to what to do to first prevent pregnancies then take care of the children who are born.  More education namely sex education along with education about birth control methods.   Not just this abstinence is best idea.  That does not work. :rolleyes:  

The pro-life folks that I know...and yes, i know that they are not necessarily representing the pro-life movement as a whole....are also against sex education  and any teaching about or providing of birth control.  Birth control education is not a total solution to the problem but it is a start.

Education about child-rearing in school...and not just that sack of flour or egg thing they do....and then once one is pregnant, mandatory classes on parenting skills should be an option that maybe health insurance companies would cover.  Or government agencies if the parents are poor.  As far as I know the only time parenting classes are mandatory is if one gets in trouble with CPS (Children Protective Services or whatever it is called in your area) and only if you want to have a chance of getting your child/children back.

Forcing a person to take in a child that is not their own is not the solution either.  That only creates resentment and the potential for more abuse of children.

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#25 Vapor Trails

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 08:13 AM

View Posttrikay, on May 13 2007, 08:49 AM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on May 12 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

View Posttrikay, on May 12 2007, 07:47 PM, said:

Having a good job that pays very well or a certain amount of money in the bank does not guarantee that your child will turn out well.  That is only providing for their financial well being not their emotional well being.

You've got to be there to teach them values and just show them unconditional love.

True-having a stable job and income is no guarantee the child will turn out all right. Teaching them values and showing them unconditional love helps. However, I stand by the position that not having the proper funds to support yourself-let alone a child-stacks the odds against the child.

I'm not budging on this one. I've seen this first-hand.


I agree that being poor does not help but this is another one of those things that does not need to be legislated.

Good grief, they are trying to do enough of that already with other issues. :rolleyes:

Um-who's talking about legislation? I'm talking about using simple common sense. In the end, my opinions really mean jack sh!t. Few people use common sense. Otherwise, there wouldn't be the problems that exist now among so many kids.

Edited by Digital Man, 13 May 2007 - 08:14 AM.

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#26 Tricia

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

^^^

Okay

Wasn't understanding what you were meaning, I suppose. :)


And you are right about the commonsense thing.  Not enough people use theirs.

I have seen too many families in my area....former neighbors actually...who may have given life to their kids but it's almost like they turned them loose to raise themselves.  No rules, no supervision, no teaching them much in the ways of common courtesy or anything. Did not even make them go to bed until they wanted to or even go to school.  Would not be surprised if they ended up pregnant before 18.  

I was pleasantly surprised....perhaps the word is shocked...when my kids thanked me for giving them rules and for caring enough to ask them about their day and actually listen.  Because they had seen the other side with no rules, no interest in them or their day/life.

But That's off-topic.

Even poor families can work and not feel like they suffered or gave up anything if the parents provide the children with love, emotional support, and give them a firm foundation upon which to live their lives.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


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Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#27 Hibblette

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:43 AM

In regards to this giving everyone a child to care for...

There are some people that just DO NOT LIKE children.  They are not necessarily drunks or child abusers or sexual abusers they just don't like children.

Children are not dolls.

Edited by Hibblette, 13 May 2007 - 10:43 AM.

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#28 Vapor Trails

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:48 AM

View Posttrikay, on May 13 2007, 11:03 AM, said:

I have seen too many families in my area....former neighbors actually...who may have given life to their kids but it's almost like they turned them loose to raise themselves.  No rules, no supervision, no teaching them much in the ways of common courtesy or anything. Did not even make them go to bed until they wanted to or even go to school.  Would not be surprised if they ended up pregnant before 18.  

I was pleasantly surprised....perhaps the word is shocked...when my kids thanked me for giving them rules and for caring enough to ask them about their day and actually listen.  Because they had seen the other side with no rules, no interest in them or their day/life.

But That's off-topic.

I completely disagree. It's VERY MUCH on-topic! :) It goes back to what I was saying about being there for the child beyond birth-not just letting out the clarion call of "Pro-life! Pro-life!" for the unborn. The birth of a child is just that-the beginning. Again-what's the point of bringing a baby into the world if you don't have the means/maturity/environment to bring it up in?

Quote

Even poor families can work and not feel like they suffered or gave up anything if the parents provide the children with love, emotional support, and give them a firm foundation upon which to live their lives.

(emphasis mine)

That's the key word. If. And even if the parents are strong and mature mentally, it's still a hell of an uphill battle if you're poor. The importance of thinking things through before having a child cannot be stressed enough.
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#29 Vapor Trails

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:51 AM

View PostHibblette, on May 13 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

In regards to this giving everyone a child to care for...

There are some people that just DO NOT LIKE children.  They are not necessarily drunks or child abusers or sexual abusers they just don't like children.

Children are not dolls.

(emphasis mine)

THANK YOU.
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#30 offworlder

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:53 AM

yeah my brother doesnt like children; when he was a teen he could tolerate playing, like sports, with kids three years younger, but then and now he just never got on with kids like under twelve; they're different, like some kind of subspecies differentiated from adults, or maybe a pet from hell? ;)
but I must admit, there is a Huge difference between your kids and others' kids; most of you with kids, and they hang with a friend, so you take them both to the game, or the store, or videos, or camp or whathaveyou, and the other's parent then takes your along with too, because they hang together all the time and the parents take turns; but you notice the difference, and in some ways and in some times you talk to Yours differently than the other, or yours acts a bit differently to you than the other does; there's just this difference, and if I had to have and care for someone's else's in more than just out with the kids for the afternoon, or at house for sleepover one night, it would just be too much. There is a difference. Yours is yours, and not yours is not yours, and no one should have a kid You didnt Choose, and he/she is not yours.
You know that thing, in middle school the young girl takes home an egg to care for it like a baby, and it's a test/project with a grade? there's no way she does that just like if she's a bit older and a mum, and that thing is her real baby child.
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#31 QueenTiye

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:49 PM

Isn't it interesting, when the easiest way to solve the world's problems is for everyone to pitch in, that no one actually wants to?

For those who think I'm so stupid as to think that such a plan could be implemented without additional supports and safeguards... I'm not.  

For those who think that children aren't "dolls" - thanks.  I must have missed that somewhere along the line. Don't know how I did, what with an 11 year old and all, but Oops. :sarcasm:

I stand by my point.  The problems of the world aren't someone else's problems, and shoving kids off to institutions to "solve the problems" doesn't work (as has been testified to in this thread), and assuming that everyone will universally abort any child who isn't born to perfect circumstances isn't going to work, and in a nation where widespread birth control AND abortion are available, we still have these problems.  So excuse me while I stand by my position.  We could solve the problem if we wanted to.  We just don't want to.

One child to raise.  One sacrifice to make - not just of money, but of time and attention.  There aren't enough children to go around - I'm sure we could exclude those who really wanted to be excluded - or put them at the bottom of the list, or whatever.  But if we all started from the idea that we would each help one child - we'd find that we'd create ways to get the job done, and really change things.

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#32 Godeskian

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:15 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 13 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

But if we all started from the idea that we would each help one child - we'd find that we'd create ways to get the job done, and really change things.

Can't help but think that for someone who has always practiced safe sex, being told, 'you did everything right to not have a child, here's one anyway, deal with it' isn't helpful. It encourages social irresponsibility, since you are going to be saddled with the mistakes of socially irresponsible people anyway. Therefore you might as well skip the intermediary step.

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#33 Vapor Trails

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:17 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 13 2007, 01:49 PM, said:

So excuse me while I stand by my position.  We could solve the problem if we wanted to.  We just don't want to.

To be blunt-you're letting your idealism cloud your thinking. What the heck do you mean "we just don't want to" ?! Who the hell is "we"?!

I find it deeply ironic that you came onto this thread saying "All the problems described here are complex, multifaceted, and not solvable with any one solution", and yet, you come up with this:

"The solution is therefore very clear. Give every adult who doesn't have a criminal record for DUI (or other drink/drug affected behaviors), child abuse, spousal abuse, or sexual predation - ONE child to care for. Everyone. No exceptions - a civic duty to raise one child not your own."

Clear? Clear as mud, I'd say. :sarcasm:

Quote

One child to raise.  One sacrifice to make - not just of money, but of time and attention.  There aren't enough children to go around - I'm sure we could exclude those who really wanted to be excluded - or put them at the bottom of the list, or whatever.

Let's get to the REAL point: You want CAPABLE PEOPLE who are WILLING AND ABLE to do the job. There are those folks who have VERY valid reasons for not being able to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. It's not always about dodging responsibility and making convenient excuses, which is what you strongly seem to be implying here, in my opinion.

Quote

But if we all started from the idea that we would each help one child - we'd find that we'd create ways to get the job done, and really change things.

QT

There you go again.  :rolleyes: "But if we all..." Please. That's not going to happen, and you know it. We have to work with what we got. It's not pretty-in fact, it's damn ugly. This is what we have, and we've got to deal with it-like it or not.

And I stand by my point. Sorry-but I find your POVs at times to be WAY too idealistic for my tastes. You seem like a good person QT-and there's a lot to admire about you. But there's idealism-and then, there's harsh reality. Is there a middle ground? A VERY tenuous one, that's constantly in flux.

Edited by Digital Man, 13 May 2007 - 01:36 PM.

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#34 Vapor Trails

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:26 PM

Sorry-I had to edit the above post a little-I'm trying to bring my point more sharply into focus.
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#35 Lin731

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 02:31 PM

I think I have a better solution than imposing parenthood on those that neither want it nor can afford it. Why do many women give children up for adoption? Finances, pure and simple. They can barely afford to care for themselves let alone a child. Many have nothing more than a high school education, don't make much money, have no insurance etc...How about if we as a country resolved to provide Universal healthcare and Secondary education (college or trade school) to ALL Americans. If we did this, we'd have a far more financially stable, educationally viable and healthy society. It would benefit the entire country and instead of imposing things on others, it would be offering peple an opportunity at a etter life for themselves, their children and the country as a whole.
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#36 Tricia

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 02:44 PM

Reading back over this thread it becomes clear that not only politics and religion are topics that inspire a lot of feelings and disagreement ...add to that the issue of children--their care, their discipline, their very existence.

The truth is that you can hope that some people would think more about having children...how many they can afford to raise both financially and/or emotionally, etc.  But children are not always the result of planning or much thought.  And sometimes they come into being despite any birth control precautions.

Yes, people should use more commonsense....but often they do not.  Often they also do not think that they are unable to handle their family size.  Until they are deep into raising said children and then you just figure out how to do the best you can.  And often it turns out better than expected.  

Sometimes not.

I've seen families of eight kids who were happy and healthy and much loved.  And i have seen people with one child or two who just should not have had any kids at all. (previously mentioned neighbors in previous post turned out to be druggies...they are in prison now, the kids with their grandma)

Asking  someone to take on the raising of someone else's child because they can not for whatever reason is one thing.

Making it mandatory to help raise another's child is a whole different thing.  Peopel resent being ordered to do something.  And that resentment is passed onto the child often, a helpless victim.

I'd gladly take on the task of fostering a child or two.  But I know my limits (despite what someone else might think).  I have two of my own by birth and two who I am raising because their mama died.  Taking on two more was something I wanted to do but if someone had said that I had to....  :unsure:

Read this article in the little magazine section of the Sunday paper  ---Fostering The Future  The folks profiled in this article are mostly those who became foster parents after their kids were all grown.

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#37 Hibblette

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 03:47 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 13 2007, 12:49 PM, said:

One child to raise.  One sacrifice to make - not just of money, but of time and attention.  There aren't enough children to go around - I'm sure we could exclude those who really wanted to be excluded - or put them at the bottom of the list, or whatever.  But if we all started from the idea that we would each help one child - we'd find that we'd create ways to get the job done, and really change things.

QT



There's a lot of messed up kids out there that know their parents don't like them.  So we are just going to hand them over to someone who's on the bottom of the list?

And if anyone (other then those you mentioned in the other post) is excluded then that pretty much shoots the whole plan in the head.

Like I said I feel like the parents of the teens are as responsible as the kids so why not make them take on the responsibility?
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#38 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 03:53 PM

I think your plan QT has already been tried. It was called The Evacuation. It didn't work.

People who don't want kids don't make good parents. I also find it quite offensive how you imply that people who disagree with your idea somehow care less than you. People do want to help and chip in. They just want to be realistic and within their own limits when they do that. People can help in all kinds of ways - by tapping into what they are good at. Trying to force everyone to be a good foster parent is like stepping into a dystopian novel, quite frankly.

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#39 QueenTiye

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 03:57 PM

I'm interested in learning what the Evacuation is.  Sorry for my ignorance on the topic.

I don't think people care less than me.  I'm not so sure I would welcome the involuntary addition of a child into my life, and I'm sure if someone else proposed the idea, I'd throw up all kinds of objections.

I could say more, but my mood is all wrong for participating in the discussion properly, so I'm bowing out.

QT

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#40 Godeskian

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:00 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on May 13 2007, 09:57 PM, said:

I could say more, but my mood is all wrong for participating in the discussion properly, so I'm bowing out.

In that case, (((((((((((((((( QT ))))))))))))))) :)

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