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Immigration breakthrough

Immigration Naturalization Z Visa 2007

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#21 Captain Jack

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 01:06 AM

View PostHambil, on May 17 2007, 10:58 PM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on May 17 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

View PostHambil, on May 17 2007, 09:35 PM, said:

Okay, I'll step into the line of fire and say I support this bill.

Here's the thing: Supply and demand works with immigration just like anything else. We have a demand for illegals, so farmers can get crops picked for $1 an hour, and so on. Dealing with the demand does more to harm the supply than a thousand fences.

Alright, I'll have to get back to you....Just as soon as I calm down. But for now all I'll say is that if this bill does become law, America might as well just say "F*ck the border! We don't need no stinking borders! Everyone! Come on in, it's a free for all sale. Everything must go!"

Mother f**king politicans!
Except that part of the bill is for strengthening the border, building fences, and beefing up patrols.

And you ACTUALLY believe they will follow through with that? :Oo:  I've got a bridge in New York I can sell you.

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It's not a one dimensional problem. Try to fight it like the drug war and you'll lose just as badly. As long as the illegals already in the country have to hide the cost and probability of success in finding them is low. Once they no longer have to hide - once they can demand minimum wage, the people using these labor sources will find the advantage has eroded quiet a bit.

The job of politicians is to serve the people.  By that, it is the CITIZENS of the United States, NOT illegals who break the law and don't give a rats ass about America.  THey won't have to hide if they come here the LEGAL way.  A lot of folks still do that.  If it is too inconvenient for them to do the same, the get the hell out.

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The bill also makes coming in legally a lot easier, once again cutting down on the supply of cheap illegal labor. It also puts illegals into the health care system, so we aren't always dealing with them as critical care cases only. Preventative medicine doesn't just save lives, it saves money.

It was never hard to come in here legally in the first place.  You think they'll learn English and get better jobs?  Hell no.  Things will stil be the same.  Low wage, maybe even lower wages since now, even MORE illegals will be flooding our borders.

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What I didn't see in the article, and I 'm waiting for the full text of the bill, is dramatically increased penalties for employing illegals.

With this bill, you won't have any illegals since everyone will be legal.  It's bullsh*t.  It's going to screw this country up so bad, it may be irreperable.  May as well buy that Mexican flag, and white-out the border, because there won't be one worth noting.
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#22 Hambil

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 02:34 AM

View PostSpidey, on May 17 2007, 11:06 PM, said:

With this bill, you won't have any illegals since everyone will be legal.  It's bullsh*t.  It's going to screw this country up so bad, it may be irreperable.  May as well buy that Mexican flag, and white-out the border, because there won't be one worth noting.
Maybe I'm cynical, but this sure sounds like prep-work for blaming all the horrible failures of the Bush administration and the years of recovery ahead of us on this bill. "It all would have worked, if not for that Immigration Bill". Conservatives love this kind of stuff. It makes living in denial so much easier.

Edited by Hambil, 18 May 2007 - 02:34 AM.


#23 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:04 AM

View PostHambil, on May 18 2007, 01:58 AM, said:

Except that part of the bill is for strengthening the border, building fences, and beefing up patrols. It's not a one dimensional problem. Try to fight it like the drug war and you'll lose just as badly. As long as the illegals already in the country have to hide the cost and probability of success in finding them is low. Once they no longer have to hide - once they can demand minimum wage, the people using these labor sources will find the advantage has eroded quiet a bit.

Why bother with the border at all? If they get here they are citizens. The taxpayers will have to pay to make this so. So why even bother with the border? This bill will only encourage them to enter illegally, cause once they are here...they have it made.

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The bill also makes coming in legally a lot easier, once again cutting down on the supply of cheap illegal labor. It also puts illegals into the health care system, so we aren't always dealing with them as critical care cases only. Preventative medicine doesn't just save lives, it saves money.

Why should they bother coming in legally, once they are here they are pretty much automatically granted citizenship? So why bother with the rules now?
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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:07 AM

View PostG1223, on May 18 2007, 01:14 AM, said:

I guess since we are going to take these people in. We had better change the lyrics over to Spainish and also make sure that all illegals can get a free college education on the taxpayer's dime.While making sure that everyone else learns mexican so we do not need to make them learn English.

Couldn't have said it better. Only you forgot to add a few things, like all the tests in the schools will now have to be in Spanish. And pretty soon we'll have to switch to whatever currency they use in Mexico...afterall, don't want to make it difficult for the illegals to be able to spend whatever money they have.
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#25 Hambil

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:22 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on May 18 2007, 01:04 AM, said:

Why bother with the border at all? If they get here they are citizens.
I do not believe that is correct. The Bill extends to "undocumented workers who arrived in the United States before January 1, 2007". It does nothing for new illegal workers. What it does do is given them an alternate, legal, path that make illegal entry far less desirable.

Edited by Hambil, 18 May 2007 - 03:23 AM.


#26 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:22 AM

View PostHambil, on May 18 2007, 04:22 AM, said:

I do not believe that is correct. The Bill extends to "undocumented workers who arrived in the United States before January 1, 2007". It does nothing for new illegal workers. What it does do is given them an alternate, legal, path that make illegal entry far less desirable.


OK, first...they are NOT "undocumented workers". Undocumented Workers is a term created by the PC crowd, to make what these illegals are sound nicer. I don't do PC.

What these illegals are is criminals. They broke the law. And they are here illegally. So they are illegal criminals. At least that is how I view it.

And giving Amnesty to all who broke our laws, entered our country without permission, is just not acceptable.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#27 Zwolf

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:48 AM

If they do this sh*t, what's the point of having legal immigration and naturalization anymore?  I'm all for people coming here the right way.   If they're willing to go through all the steps and learn all the stuff to earn their citizenship (which is a lot harder than most of the lazy bastids who were born here ever do... they don't know a tenth of the stuff about the U.S. that legal immigrants have to learn).  Those people worked for it, they really want to live here, they'll appreciate the country, and so they'll likely become some of our best citizens.  I welcome those people.

But if all you gotta do is jump the border and be handed the exact same thing... what's the motivation for anybody to do the legal work?

I mean, who's gonna bother going to school and get their college degree and stuff if they just started handing out Fortune 500 jobs on the nearest street corner?  

This thing is a totally bad idea 'cuz it gives citizenship to people who may not even appreciate it, and it fk's over and dishonors the immigrants who came here the right way.

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#28 Palisades

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:59 AM

What are the left-wing people who posted vitriol against this bill going to do about this? Vote Republican? No, you'll curse under your breath and still vote for the Democratic incumbents when they come back up for re-election. See, the Democrats in the Senate know they can increase their support among Latinos and their base will still vote for them rather than vote for a Republican.

Similar logic goes for the Republican Senators who voted for this bill except they did it for campaign contributions from their corporate masters rather than votes from Hispanics.

Isn't politics wonderful?

Edited by Solar Wind, 18 May 2007 - 10:00 AM.

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#29 Mel

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:00 AM

View PostHambil, on May 18 2007, 03:22 AM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on May 18 2007, 01:04 AM, said:

Why bother with the border at all? If they get here they are citizens.
I do not believe that is correct. The Bill extends to "undocumented workers who arrived in the United States before January 1, 2007". It does nothing for new illegal workers. What it does do is given them an alternate, legal, path that make illegal entry far less desirable.

But in a few years, once we have a large enough pool of illegal aliens again (since we'll have made our current ones suddenly legal :rolleyes: ), the politicians will pull this same stunt again using the same arguments again.  We're giving incentive to cross illegally if you can't get across legally.  Make it across and hide low long enough and eventually an amnesty bill will be passed and "voila" you to can become legal with a minimum of fuss.   The Amnesty Bill in 1986(?) didn't solve the problem even though it was supposed to do the same thing as this one if I understand it correctly. (I was a child in '86, so I didn't follow the debates then.)  Why will this one?

#30 Mr. Synystyr

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:04 AM

Add me to the list of "liberals" who think this is a BAD idea.
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#31 Bobby

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:25 AM

View PostHambil, on May 18 2007, 03:22 AM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on May 18 2007, 01:04 AM, said:

Why bother with the border at all? If they get here they are citizens.
I do not believe that is correct. The Bill extends to "undocumented workers who arrived in the United States before January 1, 2007". It does nothing for new illegal workers. What it does do is given them an alternate, legal, path that make illegal entry far less desirable.


What I don't see is how they are going to prove they were here before Jan. 1, 2007 unless  they go by how long they've been on their employer's payroll.  And once they do that the employers wiill be admitting to having hired an illegal immigrant.  They'll try to pass it off on the fact that they used fake social security numbers which is also against the law.  Then they'll try to say that it would have been racial profiling to check all Hispanic applicants with more scrutiny so they'll get a pass for it in the end even though they have a strong suspicion.

Overloading the labor force does depress wages and that's why the corporations love it, they don't respect borders and the quality of life of the citizens in the countries they operate in.  Labor is a cost of business to be kept down and the people in the jobs are all interchangable.  The problem with all of these immigrants and a mass deportation is that they are actually doing jobs, I'm curious if some of the people in this thread bitching are willing to go stand on the assembly line for ten hours a day?  12 million working class, non office sitting down jobs, will need to be filled, sure their are some Americans that do want them, and would take them if they were able to afford to live off of them but a lot of people DO think they are above manual labor.  In high school our Algebra teacher told the whole class that "you don't want to work in a factory."  Somebody had to do those jobs, sending all the work overseas to places like China and the various third world countries might seem good when you're buying a knick knack for a $1 but if a nation can't sustain itself then it's got a major problem down the road.  Capitalism without some ristrictions is a danger to our security.  You don't dare risk a war with someone who supplies you with a necessity that they could cut off.  I'm sure part of the idea of globalization is to make all communities interdependent so that it would make it more costly to start a war.  We are the world, sing it with me, and we'll all be starving together.  I think every nation should be self sufficient.  And she was right b/c I did it for a while after I got out of high school, and it's boring and mundane work so I didn't stay in it.  I also worked alongside some of those people you like to try to demonize and they were hard working and happy to have that depressing job.  

The truth is that they can either allow some people to come in and work in American factories, farms, and other menial jobs to fill vacancies. But since the government has been taken over by corporations lining their pockets companies can move everything overseas and sell their wares here without the tariffs that would allow Ameircan companies to be compete.  If you have to pay $15.00 in the U.S. because the Union, and a union will get you a decent pay rate but they are self serving enterprise now and they help drive up the cost of doing business. Compared with paying $2.00 in Mexico the companies will make the move to other countries because they can't compete and stay in business.  It's what's happening to the auto industry, I'm not against free enterprise or capitalism, but their are certain realities that have to be taken into account.  China may be leaning more toward some meshing of Capitalism/Communism but they can control their costs in a way U.S. businesses can't hope to do.


If they do it the way Bush wants, by beefing up the border security to prevent people from coming into this country illegally then they can actually control the flow.  And fine the hell out of business that are hiring the illegals like they should have been doing ten years ago.   They were lax on enforcing the laws all those years and now those people are here and companies are depending on them and we are benefiting from some of their labor.   They never should have been allowed to be here but they are now.  From a rounding them up standpoint the only way to do it would be to start racial profiling every Hispanic American in this country, even the legal ones.  And you won't get them all, in fact, you might spark outright riots(but I'm sure the Minute Men and KKK, who's membership is up b/c of immigration, would love to have an excuse to take to the streets) and other problems.  If they can't find them all but stop them from working people will resort to stealing if they are hungry enough.  Sure, they should leave and could, but 12 million people is more than populate some actual states.   It's an Army unto itself, and that's not taking into account the other Hispanic relatives that are natural citizenss who might align with them.  

There's one thing that they shouldn't be allowed to do even if they give them some kind of status as a guest worker or whatever, and that's the right to vote.

Edited by Life for Rent, 18 May 2007 - 10:35 AM.


#32 SparkyCola

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:34 AM

What Zwolf said. ^

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#33 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:35 AM

View PostMr. Synystyr, on May 18 2007, 11:04 AM, said:

Add me to the list of "liberals" who think this is a BAD idea.

A side note:

How ironic that the name of your town is "Escondido"-which is translated from Spanish to mean "Hidden".  :rolleyes:

Talk about the irony-a town named Escondido, in of all places, California!  :rolleyes:

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#34 Cheile

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 01:45 PM

add me as well to the list of liberals who think this is an idiotic idea.

what we OUGHT to do is take them all, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong, and let them reapply for citizenship LEGALLY.

this is an insult not only to legally born citizens, but moreso to the people who LEGALLY applied and became American citizens.  i know quite a few Hispanics in this town who applied and became citizens in the 80s and early 90s.  this is an insult to them.

but of course i'd be called racist.  let's ignore the fact that my niece and nephew are half Hispanic thsmselves.  :rolleyes:

:follows LOTS out before i say something i regret:

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#35 BklnScott

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 01:52 PM

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

add me as well to the list of liberals who think this is an idiotic idea.

what we OUGHT to do is take them all, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong, and let them reapply for citizenship LEGALLY.

this is an insult not only to legally born citizens, but moreso to the people who LEGALLY applied and became American citizens.  i know quite a few Hispanics in this town who applied and became citizens in the 80s and early 90s.  this is an insult to them.

but of course i'd be called racist.  let's ignore the fact that my niece and nephew are half Hispanic thsmselves.  :rolleyes:

:follows LOTS out before i say something i regret:

*Before*?  Oy.  Cheile, you may be liberal on many issues, but when you say "take them, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong," you forfeit your right to call yourself liberal on immigration.  In my opinion.

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#36 G1223

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 02:49 PM

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#37 GiGi

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:35 PM

I think something that is being overlooked is a point a friend of mine made.

Very few of the Mexicans really care about being US citizens, they just want the money. And in truth this bill doesn't give them citizenship but a VISA and credits towards a green card so they can work here.

The problem is that if you come in from any other country, a VISA is hard to get as Gode pointed out. This bill automatically gives them one and one that is pretty easy to renew and allows guest visas for family.

It is just a big mess.  We can't just ship people back to Mexico, they are part of the labor force especially here where there are a lot of farms, some of them small organic ones.  

I don't know what the answer is, I do know that if they are shipped out there aren't that many other folks that will be jumping on the back breaking farm labor jobs that they do.

I am not saying any of this is right or wrong, I am annoyed at most of that bill as well, but I also see that there is no easy answer.
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#38 SparkyCola

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 04:21 PM

Quote

*Before*? Oy. Cheile, you may be liberal on many issues, but when you say "take them, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong," you forfeit your right to call yourself liberal on immigration. In my opinion.

To be fair, with only two parties .... I can't imagine many people agree with EVERYTHING of one party and nothing whatsoever on the other one.

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#39 Mr. Synystyr

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 05:10 PM

Scott, I am considered a "liberal" overall (borderline socialist on the political compass), several personal and family friends are legal immigrants from Mexico, my dad went to college in Mexico City, and heck, Spanish was my first language.  All that said,  I support strict enforcement of existing immigration laws (as well as a few other "conservative" ideals).  The current situation and this proposed "solution" are both slaps in the face of the rule of law.  If changed is desired, then change the immigration policies going forward, don't ignore or grant amnesty for the current and past transgressions.

DM, google Escondido and immigration if you'd like an extra dose of irony.

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#40 Cheile

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

View PostScottEVill, on May 18 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

*Before*?  Oy.  Cheile, you may be liberal on many issues, but when you say "take them, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong," you forfeit your right to call yourself liberal on immigration.  In my opinion.

uh why?  because i'm tired of criminals getting a free ride?  like LOTS said the last time this subject came up, if you are here illegally, you are a criminal.  period.  

or do you take offense with me only saying they belong in Mexico?  would you prefer i amend that to just "ship them back to their @#$%% [insert country of origin]" instead?

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We can't just ship people back to Mexico, they are part of the labor force especially here where there are a lot of farms, some of them small organic ones.

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates.  make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce.  then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people.  hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid.  just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

but of course that would be considered "cruel", i know.  :sarcasm:

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