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Immigration breakthrough

Immigration Naturalization Z Visa 2007

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#41 RobL

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 08:35 PM

You mean that I'm going to have to pay Bertha and little Juanito more to clean my house? Well, sh*t, count me out then.

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#42 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 08:52 PM

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 09:28 PM, said:

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates.  make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce.  then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people.  hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid.  just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

I'm all for that program.
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#43 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:53 PM

View PostMr. Synystyr, on May 18 2007, 06:10 PM, said:

DM, google Escondido and immigration if you'd like an extra dose of irony.

:yin-yang:

Actually, irony and I have become bitter, bitter enemies. Today, in particular. So-I'll take your word for it, and not Google. My mood is all wrong for that. I'm at the point today where I might kick in the monitor. The LAST thing I need is to be more pissed off than I already am right now. It's not been a good day, to put it mildly. :angry:
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#44 Rhea

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:17 PM

My favorite Illegal Immigrant with Brass Balls story (for this week):

For those of you who don't know, if you can prove you have a kid in special education you can't be deported. I swear (and since 90% of these kids are only temporarily in special ed, it's not about compassion for parents with disabled children). About ten times a year I'm asked to write a letter to a court or immigration attorney confirming that somebody's kid is in special.

Just two days ago I was asked to write a letter for a father who's kid isn't even in special ed yet! Usually they wait till the kid darkens the door to ask for favors. Oh, yeah - and when they came to pick the letter up, damned if they didn't ask me to make additional copies for them! And no "thank you."

Edited by Rhea, 19 May 2007 - 08:09 PM.

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#45 GiGi

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 11:18 PM

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates.  make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce.  then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people.  hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid.  just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

but of course that would be considered "cruel", i know.  :sarcasm:
Hmmm, okay. Well, my friend actually agrees with you.

It is an interesting idea.
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#46 BklnScott

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 11:52 PM

View PostG1223, on May 18 2007, 03:49 PM, said:

True but you cannot say she is wrong.

I can, and I do.  I'm not surprised you're for rounding millions of people up and deporting them, though.  Or should that be "deporting" them?

mr synystyr said:

Scott, I am considered a "liberal" overall (borderline socialist on the political compass), several personal and family friends are legal immigrants from Mexico, my dad went to college in Mexico City, and heck, Spanish was my first language. All that said, I support strict enforcement of existing immigration laws (as well as a few other "conservative" ideals). The current situation and this proposed "solution" are both slaps in the face of the rule of law. If changed is desired, then change the immigration policies going forward, don't ignore or grant amnesty for the current and past transgressions.

I have a very good friend of Columbian descent who is also very liberal, and feels as you do.  I can understand that position.  I don't share it, and it doesn't change my conviction that a lot of people who do share it are guilty of true ugliness, both in their rhetoric about these people and their proposals about how to solve the problem.  

cheile said:

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates. make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce. then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people. hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid. just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

but of course that would be considered "cruel", i know.

Actually, it would be considered a form of slavery.

ETA: I'm getting such deja vu right now. . . Oh, right, that's because all of this has happened before and (sadly) all of it will happen again.

Edited by ScottEVill, 19 May 2007 - 12:03 AM.

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#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:42 AM

Well the way I view this bill is like this:

Someone breaks into your house. Tells you that he is staying, you have to start speaking his language (though that isn't in this bill, but give the idiotic politicans time...they'll eventually push it in). So now you have this intruder in your house illegally, cause breaking in is illegal. He didn't enter the correct way, by knocking and waiting for you to say "Come in". He just up and entered...to hell with what you wanted.

So now he is in your house, you have to speak his language. Pay for his children to go to school, his medical bills, ect. You have to give him access to all your stuff. Your fridge, tv, room, ect.

Naturally, as a law abiding citizen, you are angered and call the cops. Cops come and give you a speech about how you're a racist. You obviously hate the poor "undocumented house guest" because of his race, and shouldn't you be ashamed of yourself. How dare you.

Now enter the "brilliant politicans" who are pushing this bill. So that once this bill becomes law, when you call the cops about the person who just busted into your place; they not only give you the speech about you being a racist, but they hand the intruder a piece of paper saying they are now Officially a member of your household. Period the end. No matter how you feel on the subject.

And that is, at least to me, exactly what this bill is all about. So hell NO!
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#48 G1223

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:43 AM

Well Scott are they here legally? No.
If we were in Mexico illegally but other have been law biding would we be deported? Likely yes.

I favor by the way going after the employers so hard it hurts as well. But I see not reason for a person here illegally should be allowed to stay. For some reason you think we can deal with this by giving them citizenship? After all we have a number of Mexicans who can here legally and are having to keep proving they are not a bunch of illegal aliens. They have to work hard and go to classes to become citizens. The illegal he has to do NOTHING. NOTHING at all to get the benifits we made the other folks go through.

Why are we suppose to do that?

Besides being stupid?

Edited by G1223, 19 May 2007 - 12:43 AM.

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#49 Captain Jack

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:50 AM

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on May 18 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

*Before*?  Oy.  Cheile, you may be liberal on many issues, but when you say "take them, ship them back to @#$@% Mexico where they belong," you forfeit your right to call yourself liberal on immigration.  In my opinion.

uh why?  because i'm tired of criminals getting a free ride?  like LOTS said the last time this subject came up, if you are here illegally, you are a criminal.  period.  

What Cheile said. :cool:

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or do you take offense with me only saying they belong in Mexico?  would you prefer i amend that to just "ship them back to their @#$%% [insert country of origin]" instead?

ScottEVill takes offense with anyone saying that a people who broke the law should leave.  We don't want to hurt their feelings or anything, you know.  :rolleyes:

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We can't just ship people back to Mexico, they are part of the labor force especially here where there are a lot of farms, some of them small organic ones.

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates.  make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce.  then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people.  hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid.  just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

We could, and we SHOULD.  They are a part of the labor force, yes, but it is not a good labor force.  It's wrong for employers to pay anyone less than minimum wage (and in this case a lot less), and it is wrong for employers to encourage such criminal behavior.

I second Cheile's idea of putting inmates to work.  It's isn't slave labor, it's working off your sentence.  All they do is sit around, watch satillite TV, work out in the gyms, and smoke cigarettes.  They should be taught what it is to work hard, be productive, contribute to society, and learn to appreciate the things in life.  They could do it in the same terms as those inmates that make license plates, and so forth.

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but of course that would be considered "cruel", i know.  :sarcasm:

Oh, yes, I forgot, thanks Cheile.  We don't want to be cruel and hurt their feelings or anything.  After all, this is only our country.  We're only citizens of it.  I mean, excuse us for getting bent out of shape when they break our laws.  :sarcasm:

Ship 'em back.  All 12 million of 'em.  When they riot, round 'em up.  Do raids.  Send the message that if you break the law, the man comes looking for you.
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#50 Cheile

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 01:07 AM

View PostScottEVill, on May 18 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

Actually, it would be considered a form of slavery.

some prisons actually make inmates do work--like the ones where they make license plates.  are you going to say that's slavery too?

the slaves were kidnapped from their homes and forced into slavery.  they committed no crimes.  inmates CHOSE to commit their crimes.  there's a difference.

they owe a debt to society.  why not let them work it off by actually working instead of getting to sit in cushy cells with satellite TV and computers where they can earn free master's degrees??

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#51 Raina

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 04:51 AM

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

oh we could if i was in charge because i know of a perfect replacement for them....inmates.  make inmates work on chain gangs to harvest our produce.  then they really ARE paying their debt to society--by feeding the American people.  hell, the prices would probly even fall because they wouldn't have to be paid.  just think--that could solve some of this country's obesity problem because fruits and vegetables would be cheaper and more easily obtainable.

but of course that would be considered "cruel", i know.  :sarcasm:

View PostCheile, on May 18 2007, 11:07 PM, said:

the slaves were kidnapped from their homes and forced into slavery.  they committed no crimes.  inmates CHOSE to commit their crimes.  there's a difference.

they owe a debt to society.  why not let them work it off by actually working instead of getting to sit in cushy cells with satellite TV and computers where they can earn free master's degrees??
I agree.

Edited by Raina, 19 May 2007 - 04:53 AM.


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#52 G1223

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 07:29 AM

Also if the riot then the police /INS  back off and the national guard or army comes in and arrests them and if fired on shoot back.

Scott I know you will call it racist for the police or anyone actaully enforce the immigration law but if it takes armed force to carry out the law is that not what the police/National guard is suppose to do.

But it seems that unless we throw open the doors and make all these illegals and the ones following them citizens we are being racist.
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#53 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 07:57 AM

View PostCheile, on May 19 2007, 02:07 AM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on May 18 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

Actually, it would be considered a form of slavery.

some prisons actually make inmates do work--like the ones where they make license plates.  are you going to say that's slavery too?

the slaves were kidnapped from their homes and forced into slavery.  they committed no crimes.  inmates CHOSE to commit their crimes.  there's a difference.

they owe a debt to society.  why not let them work it off by actually working instead of getting to sit in cushy cells with satellite TV and computers where they can earn free master's degrees??

Couldn't have said it better myself.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#54 BklnScott

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 11:37 AM

View PostCheile, on May 19 2007, 02:07 AM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on May 18 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

Actually, it would be considered a form of slavery.

some prisons actually make inmates do work--like the ones where they make license plates.  are you going to say that's slavery too?

No, that's fine.  It's a communal environment, and they have to work.  But at least there, they have choices.  But you would have prisoners forced into performing hard labor, a job they cannot quit for which they will receive no pay -- in other words, chain gangs.  And if they die?  Oh, well.  After all, as you say, they owed a debt to society.  So if society chooses to work them to death, cest la vie.  Right?  

The truth is that chain gangs have long been acknowledged as the very definition of slave labor (not to mention, cruel and unusual punishment).  

There's also the fact that the kind of prisons you advocate, in addition to being disgustingly immoral, drive men mad.  

Do you get that?  Your way makes bad criminals into worse, more dangerous criminals... who will one day be released back into the world.  (And, yes, the vast majority of them *will* one day be released back into the world.)  

Is that what we really want?  Factories for making dangerous men into even more dangerous men?  

Seems like a swell strategy -- if our aim is shooting ourselves in the foot.

cheile said:

they owe a debt to society.  why not let them work it off by actually working instead of getting to sit in cushy cells with satellite TV and computers where they can earn free master's degrees??

Wow!  Jail sounds like such fun -- I have to ask, why haven't you gone and gotten yourself locked up long since?  I think I'll go work on that now.  After all, I've always wanted that second masters, and just can't afford it.  I had no idea all I had to do was go beat someone up and the state would provide it for me.  (Rubs hands together.)  Right, I'm off.

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#55 Cheile

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:38 PM

^ oh come on, Scott.  you've been around longer than me.  are you telling me you haven't heard of these prison exposes where people in the media have found out exactly how many privileges inmates get in a lot of prisons?  i've read several varying accounts and i'm only going on 29.  i'm tempted to ask what rock you've been hiding under to not have heard of at least one of these reports....

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No, that's fine. It's a communal environment, and they have to work. But at least there, they have choices. But you would have prisoners forced into performing hard labor, a job they cannot quit for which they will receive no pay -- in other words, chain gangs. And if they die? Oh, wel

i doubt the inmates who have inside jobs like license plate making get to say "oh i don't want to work today".  and if hard work outside isn't going to kill the illegals that don't belong here, it's not going to kill inmates either.  illegals are not made of special stuff that makes them the only ones who can harvest fields of produce.  we got along before they started illegally coming over here in droves--we could do fine without them with a replacement force.

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#56 Lin731

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 07:36 PM

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No, that's fine. It's a communal environment, and they have to work. But at least there, they have choices. But you would have prisoners forced into performing hard labor, a job they cannot quit for which they will receive no pay -- in other words, chain gangs. And if they die? Oh, well. After all, as you say, they owed a debt to society. So if society chooses to work them to death, cest la vie. Right?

Who's talking about working them to death here Scott? Personally, I do think they should be paid and a bit more than someone in the system doing less intense labor. As far as I'm concerned, it would do some of these folks good to actually work for something for a change (instead of beating old people for their purses, wallets and cars etc...What a novel concept, work for what you want instead of stealing from others who actually did work for theirs. Can you tell I've been robbed a couple times?

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The truth is that chain gangs have long been acknowledged as the very definition of slave labor (not to mention, cruel and unusual punishment).

As I said, I beleive they should be paid for their labor.

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There's also the fact that the kind of prisons you advocate, in addition to being disgustingly immoral, drive men mad.

How is it immoral to expect people that have taken from society to actually do something useful for  society instead? To me, it's immoral that they sit on their asses in prison, in many cases doing nothing all day but playing cards, watching tv or lifting weights. As I said, I'm not advocating slave labor though, so it is a bit different.

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Do you get that? Your way makes bad criminals into worse, more dangerous criminals... who will one day be released back into the world. (And, yes, the vast majority of them *will* one day be released back into the world.)

How exactly are these folks gonna be more dangerous if they're working everyday than they are now? 24/7 hanging out all day with other criminals, bored and looking for a fight, a drug deal, a potential victim? Sorry but I don't think it makes them any more or less dangerous.

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Is that what we really want? Factories for making dangerous men into even more dangerous men?

Seems like a swell strategy -- if our aim is shooting ourselves in the foot.

Again how exactly are they gonna be more dangerous than they are right now (unless you mean under the forced labor for free scenerio)?
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#57 G1223

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 07:38 PM

They will be mroe dangerous because the sweat of their brow will drive them nuts.
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#58 Hambil

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 10:29 PM

View PostLin731, on May 19 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

Again how exactly are they gonna be more dangerous than they are right now
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#59 G1223

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 11:47 PM

Actaully they are not working for free. They are working to pay for the free food. It costs them nothing but it is sure not free to the tax payer.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#60 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 03:34 PM

View PostScottEVill, on May 19 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

No, that's fine.  It's a communal environment, and they have to work.  But at least there, they have choices.  But you would have prisoners forced into performing hard labor, a job they cannot quit for which they will receive no pay -- in other words, chain gangs.  And if they die?  Oh, well.  After all, as you say, they owed a debt to society.  So if society chooses to work them to death, cest la vie.  Right?  

The truth is that chain gangs have long been acknowledged as the very definition of slave labor (not to mention, cruel and unusual punishment).

So you're option is to what? Let them just stay in prison? In their cell? I can't be positive, but I'm fairly certain that if given a choice between working outside, or staying in their cell for 23 hours a day, most would probably choose to work outside. But even if they didn't...there's a simple solution...Don't do the crime.

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There's also the fact that the kind of prisons you advocate, in addition to being disgustingly immoral, drive men mad.  

Do you get that?  Your way makes bad criminals into worse, more dangerous criminals... who will one day be released back into the world.  (And, yes, the vast majority of them *will* one day be released back into the world.)  

Is that what we really want?  Factories for making dangerous men into even more dangerous men?  

Seems like a swell strategy -- if our aim is shooting ourselves in the foot.

I would have to say what would drive people mad is staying in the same small cell for 23 hours a day. And making them MORE dangerous....I would say that falls under the category of letting them lift weights, get stronger...So you have a violent criminal, who instead of working outside, contributing to society, is doing nothing but lifting weights, working out constantly in his cell...so that when he gets out he is even stronger then when he went in. So now the violent criminal even stronger then when he went in, back out on the streets.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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