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Islam Honor Killings Sunni Muslims Joss Whedon 2007

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#21 Cait

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 05:19 PM

View PostWhite Tiger, on May 21 2007, 02:36 PM, said:

But what is happening here is simply about POWER.

Bingo!  Whatever window dressing we'd like to put on it, it has and always will be about power.  It is bred into our culture, and I mean world wide culture, that a man is the king of *his* castle.  That bestows power.  He rules in his home.  Some men rule hovels in Cambodia; some men rule mansions Dubai; but they all believe they have an entitlement to rule.  When it comes to women, men may not be able to rule empires and other men, but they can certainly rule their women.

:(

[Note: and I'd rather this not sink into a male bashing thing, because I don't mean it that way at all.  I don't think that all men wish harm to women or that ALL men need to subjugate women in order to feel some power of their own.  I do believe that power [or the lack of it] motivates what harm *is* done and that this is a cultural thing that strikes at the heart of what it means to be a man in the first place.]

Edited by Cait, 21 May 2007 - 05:19 PM.

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#22 MuseZack

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 05:28 PM

I've long been fascinated by the Yezidi and their religion and culture, so it was especially distressing to see that this happened in the Yezidi community.  Dozens if not hundreds of honor killings happen every year in the Middle East and they're all horrible, but one has to wonder if this one is getting played so heavily in the Arab world because it's a tiny, despised minority that's responsible in this case.
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#23 G1223

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 05:33 PM

View PostSpectacles, on May 21 2007, 05:33 PM, said:

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G: Oh that pile of steaming crap. Sorry I could tell from the poster I wanted nothing to do with it. Let alone go see it.

I hear ya, G. :)

What's disturbing is that there apparently *is* a market for these kinds of films.

Our culture, especially popular culture, degrades women, too. It's just that instead of covering them from head to toe and stoning them when they get out of line, we parade them around half-naked as accessories to powerful men. And so many young women buy into that crap. Each year, it seems that more and more young women show up to class with as much T and A showing as possible-even in winter. It's insane. Obviously, their image of what it is to be a woman has been shaped by an excessive diet of crappy movies and music videos. Something has gone terribly wrong in their lives if they don't have any more sense than to run around half-naked, especially when there's snow on the ground.  :blink:

I assume that along with the dress code, some have adopted the self-image of woman as expendable commodity, just walking "bling," one who gets her power only through attaching herself to the most sociopathic man available. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it's something that worries me.


Yet you say anything about altering that perception is censorship. You say that it is a phase they gorwout of so it is best we let them express it.  So which is it going to be a continuation of the behavior or a attempt to curtail it.
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#24 SparkyCola

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 06:10 PM

Quote

Our culture, especially popular culture, degrades women, too. It's just that instead of covering them from head to toe and stoning them when they get out of line, we parade them around half-naked as accessories to powerful men. And so many young women buy into that crap. Each year, it seems that more and more young women show up to class with as much T and A showing as possible-even in winter. It's insane. Obviously, their image of what it is to be a woman has been shaped by an excessive diet of crappy movies and music videos. Something has gone terribly wrong in their lives if they don't have any more sense than to run around half-naked, especially when there's snow on the ground.

Yep, this reminds me of a coupla things in particular - Snoop dogg's sexist comments about women (even though he was attempting at that point to be anti-sexist, which actually made it worse :( ) - and the other day when I was flicking through a paper and saw an advert for clothes. The model wearing this dress (it looked like a sack but that's beside the point) - was so skinny I actually felt nauseated looking at her. She looked more than ill - she looked, frankly, dead. She looked like a zombie or something and it horrifies me to think this is the kind of image we are portraying to young women.

G - while you ignore the fact that women's rights are abused in the West as well as the middle east, you also overlook the fact that our history of women's rights is hardly shining either. How would you feel if you were fighting for the rights of women back say, 100 years ago - and some other more enlightened culture decided to wipe your entire country off the face of the earth for being sexist? I hear Florida has modern day slavery, shall we nuke them? The fact is you can't "nuke" an idea into someone. They have to work it out themselves. And they will, and they are, but it takes more than threatening to nuke them to change people's minds. Knowing how contrary and stubborn humans are, that will actually have the reverse effect and make them more adament than ever. We can do our best to stop it and to encourage against it - of course, what else can we do? But ultimately it is up to them to change, it is their revolution, you can't force that, and all countries have one - just at different times. There's is later than ours. It happens. Things change, and they are changing, but it's their battle - our interference could only make things worse.

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#25 White Tiger

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 06:22 PM

I Love G and everything....But I wish to god he would resort to the lets nuc'em phase.
Remember lets talk Agenda.
(PLEASE don't get mad...this is only a personal deduction and does not mean I Actually KNOW what I'm talking about)
Many young women do dress in a revealing manner to be noticed. The attention is empowering. Further it does allow for many to pick and
choose a mate that appeals to their needs (Be it money, power, whathaveyou).
The media compounds this ideology for much of the same reasons. It brings in money, and does allow for the ever money filling circle to continue.
That is also why journalism is becoming even more outrageous.
Modern Men compound this futher by BELIEVING this is the only way to meet a mate. So they too add to this nightmare which is modern life.
I personally have removed myself from the whole idea of marriage, dating or anything that has to do with changing myself to fit societies idea of what is a perfect
mate.
MY Agenda is personal happiness without trying to destroy others around me. I'm not sure how I'm doing...but I'm trying.
AGENDA is a bruatl but ever invasive thing in human nature.
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#26 Lin731

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 06:26 PM

Quote

But what is happening here is simply about POWER.

Yep that's pretty much it in a nutshell. It's all about attaining power but more importantly keeping power. Racism, sexism, bigotry, elitism, greed, religious hatreds and even fear are all about power...Who has it? Who doesn't? How do you get it and how do you keep it?

Because we are physically weaker, we become the brunt of what in essence amounts to bullying. "Do what I say or I'll hit you, humiliate you, leave you impoverish with our kids to raise" God forbid if you leave them though. "Leave me and I'll kill you". Here in the US we make a pretense of equality but that's all it is. Woman (educated women no less) are losing ground, not gaining it in wages for the same positions as their male counterparts. Men are backslapped, winked and nudged for having sex with as many women as possible but the women, well they're sluts and whore. If a women has power and God forbid, asserts it, she's a shrill, demanding bitch that needs to be taken down a notch or two. How much research has been done on male contraceptives compared to woman? How many new forms of birthcontrol have been released for men? When a vaccine came out for human pap viruses, we had one governor mandating immunization for all girls but not for the boys (who can also spread it). Why? When we pass laws or contemplate them regarding abortion, many would cheerfully dicate to women that if you become pregnant you must carry to term but is any physical consequence dictated for men (like a vasectomy)? NO.

Many men love porn, two women putting on a show for their entertainment but many of these same men hate Lesbians. Why? Again it's about power. Two women sexually involved for the pleasure of a man is fine, but if they prefer other women as life partners, how dare they! They just need a good hot meat injection from the right man to straighten them out. Many men's hatred of gay men come preceiving these men as effeminant...aka weak and womanlike. Something to be scorned and bullied. Probably even more than woman because they're supposed to be superior to them.

In the battle between the sexes, as in any war, the victory writes the history to portray themselves as being right and good and those they vanquish as being wrong and bad. Nature dealt women the losing hand biologically to fight such a battle based on physical size and strength and the victories wrote the history to suit themselves, their agenda and their need to retain and fear of losing power.
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#27 enTranced

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 06:40 PM

My love for Joss Whedon started out just being about the guy's TV shows and comic books but lately it's for the guy himself. I would love to see him at a con someday and listen to him talk about things and really pick hius mind. I love the way he writes.

Anyway, I agree with him 100% and especialy about this horrible killing. There is no honor about it all all. It's just a murder.

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#28 G1223

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 07:22 PM

View PostWhite Tiger, on May 21 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

I Love G and everything....But I wish to god he would resort to the lets nuc'em phase.
Remember lets talk Agenda.
(PLEASE don't get mad...this is only a personal deduction and does not mean I Actually KNOW what I'm talking about)

And you feel the talks will make them change? Really? I suspect it is so folks can say "Well we tried". And that way shed off guilt for doing what they knew needed done in the first place.

It is like Iran. We do not want them hvaing the bomb. and we are in a endless series of talks which I suspect is going to end up with Iran having the bomb. They will nickle and dime us back and win by nibbles what they could not get with one direct action. Then after Israel fixs the problem for us. We will then stand around and hue and cry about why it did not need to be that way.

Yet we knew it was going to need to be done.
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When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#29 scherzo

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 07:56 PM

Quote

Let's not forget that Joss is pointing a finger at our own culture as well.

That's kinda why he lost me pretty early.

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#30 White Tiger

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 09:07 PM

View PostG1223, on May 22 2007, 12:22 AM, said:

View PostWhite Tiger, on May 21 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

I Love G and everything....But I wish to god he would resort to the lets nuc'em phase.
Remember lets talk Agenda.
(PLEASE don't get mad...this is only a personal deduction and does not mean I Actually KNOW what I'm talking about)

And you feel the talks will make them change? Really? I suspect it is so folks can say "Well we tried". And that way shed off guilt for doing what they knew needed done in the first place.

It is like Iran. We do not want them hvaing the bomb. and we are in a endless series of talks which I suspect is going to end up with Iran having the bomb. They will nickle and dime us back and win by nibbles what they could not get with one direct action. Then after Israel fixs the problem for us. We will then stand around and hue and cry about why it did not need to be that way.

Yet we knew it was going to need to be done.
Dude... its just you always seem to pull out the Nuke card every conversation. Nuclear weapons is not a weapon TO be used. Should another Country choose to attack Canada, US, Europe and what not...THEN. But not before. Thats the idea. Mutually assured destruction. Lets not be the ones to cast the die that ends humanity. But I do say we maybe thye ones to finish it. That is when there is no choice.
And even then...I would rather let them win then leave everything a piling globe of smoldering ash.
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#31 G1223

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 09:13 PM

It's only mutually assured if you let Iran get the bomb. And I would rather be the one standing while they submit. Our way of life would at least allow them to survive. Theirs will not let us live free.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#32 White Tiger

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 09:17 PM

Thats what I mean...The US doesn't have to do ANYTHING. Let them make the first move. I do understand many can die...but we cannot be the criminals in this. Anyhoo. I just wish you wouldn't always say nuke'em. Your far more intelligent then that.

Edited by White Tiger, 21 May 2007 - 09:18 PM.

Hatred ever kills, love never dies such is the vast difference between the two. What is obtained by love is retained for all time. What is obtained by hatred proves a burden in reality for it increases hatred.
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#33 G1223

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 09:42 PM

So we give them first strike knowing they will not use the weapon. And when Iran uses the threat of the bomb to shield them from counter attack and they deciced to close off the Pursian Gulf. What then. Work to find another way to talk to them. And they make the rest of the arab world force out of our bases or face being attacked. What then maybe a naother set of talks. Then Turkey is forced to leave the EU and take a more inline poistion with Iran and Syria.

Then we have that war that will cost even more lives than hitting Iran now will ever have cost. And having to do it without the support of closer bases.
I guess being moral means letting billions die for an ideal that they might never have agreed with in the first place.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#34 White Tiger

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 09:49 PM

Personally I think That there should be a full withdrawl from those regions. Canada & US really don't have any business being over except to enforce their political agenda's.
Thats just my opinion of course
Hatred ever kills, love never dies such is the vast difference between the two. What is obtained by love is retained for all time. What is obtained by hatred proves a burden in reality for it increases hatred.
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#35 RobL

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 10:17 PM

Personally, I think we should have just turned the entire region to radioactive glass. But, I'm just a right-wing nut, so what's the diff? :)

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#36 Ilyanna

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 03:19 AM

Personally, I think it is pretty peculiar how a thread about the treatment of women has turned to another Irannukeemnodon'tyesdonodon't-sparring, but anyway   *shrugs*

One thing that saddens me quite a lot is the extent to which women themselves work on keeping the patriarchic system alive in my country. It is in the way they judge other women, in the way women act themselves, in the goals women set for themselves, in the way women teach and raise their kids.
Lin731 has already given very good examples of how women are treated in the western civilization (and I do use that term very loosely...), and this treatment is only possible because most women support it.
  • How many times have you heard a woman call another woman "slut" (directly or behind her back) because the lady does want to have sex with more than one partner, or another woman, or just with the "wrong" man?
  • How many women do you know that don't try to enhance their looks with make-up, hair-dye or whatever because they think that this will make them more attractive? Who taught them this? Moreover, who taught them that a) they have to look good and b) they don't look good the way nature made them?
  • How many of you had a woman tell you that there are things women just don't do, for example belching, shouting, getting drunk, hitting on a person, hitting a person, play with tools designed for boys, repairing things, getting jobs that are traditionally done by men,...?
  • How many of you have known women who judge other women by their looks, make-up, clothes?
And directed to the women here:
  • How many of you have actually done and/or thought any of the above?
  • How often have you accepted that a man takes the lead although you have known that you can do it (whatever it was) better or at least as good as he?
  • How often have you taken up the role of the host, shopping, cooking, preparing dinner, serving the guests, while nearly the only duty your male partner seems to have is making conversations with the guests. Even when he helped with the dishes, or did the cooking: did you take it for granted, or were you melting away because it was soooo sweet of him to help you? Have you ever stopped to question this role allocation?
  • How many of you have called a fellow woman a women's libber just because she said that there is no equality between women and men, and that this is neither "natural nor fair"?
    *]How many of you don't have a problem with asking a man to do the lawn mowing, tire exchange, plumbing,.. just because, well, they are chores done by men?
I have done and thought all of the above (except for "things women don't do...", and calling a woman a feminist /women's libber), some of them while already feeling that this is wrong, and I am deeply ashamed that it takes me so long to get rid of these "bad habits".

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo! (And I do exclude people like Joss Whedon or any guy here who thinks in the same line...) It's always the suppressed, mistreated, seemingly powerless people who have to solidarize and stand up in order to get a better treatment. The truth as I see it is - we have to start with ourselves, our way of thinking, before we point our finger at other people or societies.

*gets off soapbox and makes note to watch Buffy... yet again* :insanosmile:
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#37 Godeskian

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 03:26 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 09:19 AM, said:

[*]How many of you had a woman tell you that there are things women just don't do, for example belching, shouting, getting drunk, hitting on a person, hitting a person, play with tools designed for boys, repairing things, getting jobs that are traditionally done by men,...?

I have this friend who when asked by a bunch of young kids if she could burp, proved unhesitatingly that she was the equal of any man :p

She's a blast to hang with.

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#38 Ilyanna

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 03:54 AM

Yep, a good friend of mine has made an art out of burping... we used to call her the queen of burp, and her belches have put many a guy in his place by sheer length and volume...  :cool:
but sadly enough, she also has gotten quite some backlash from women around her, too. Pure envy, if you ask me ;) )
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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 04:32 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

Yep, a good friend of mine has made an art out of burping... we used to call her the queen of burp, and her belches have put many a guy in his place by sheer length and volume...  :cool:
but sadly enough, she also has gotten quite some backlash from women around her, too. Pure envy, if you ask me ;) )

You have to understand. I spend most of my time hanging out with my theater group. And most of us are good friends, which means a lot of stuff that would probably seem really weird to ordinary folks is considered perfectly normal for us

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#40 Ilyanna

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 04:56 AM

Ah, I see. That's the great thing when you have close friends, even more so when they are longtime friends... the liberty of displaying perfectly natural behavior increases while the pressure of showing your best side drops... and weird is so much funnier than ordinary, too ;)

Edited by Ilyanna, 22 May 2007 - 04:59 AM.

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
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