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Islam Honor Killings Sunni Muslims Joss Whedon 2007

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#41 Palisades

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:59 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 02:19 AM, said:

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo!

In the US, men (the "powerful party in control") gave women the right to vote. Think about it. Women couldn't vote. Every person who voted for the Constitutional Amendment was a man.
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#42 sierraleone

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:59 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 04:19 AM, said:

Personally, I think it is pretty peculiar how a thread about the treatment of women has turned to another Irannukeemnodon'tyesdonodon't-sparring, but anyway   *shrugs*

One thing that saddens me quite a lot is the extent to which women themselves work on keeping the patriarchic system alive in my country. It is in the way they judge other women, in the way women act themselves, in the goals women set for themselves, in the way women teach and raise their kids.
Lin731 has already given very good examples of how women are treated in the western civilization (and I do use that term very loosely...), and this treatment is only possible because most women support it.
[*]How many times have you heard a woman call another woman "slut" (directly or behind her back) because the lady does want to have sex with more than one partner, or another woman, or just with the "wrong" man?
[*]How many women do you know that don't try to enhance their looks with make-up, hair-dye or whatever because they think that this will make them more attractive? Who taught them this? Moreover, who taught them that a) they have to look good and b) they don't look good the way nature made them?
[*]How many of you had a woman tell you that there are things women just don't do, for example belching, shouting, getting drunk, hitting on a person, hitting a person, play with tools designed for boys, repairing things, getting jobs that are traditionally done by men,...?
[*]How many of you have known women who judge other women by their looks, make-up, clothes?
[/list]And directed to the women here:[list]

I'll take a stab.

Quote

[*]How many of you have actually done and/or thought any of the above?

I certainly have.

1) I haven't heard women call women sluts... maybe implied in looks.... then I'm pretty introverted and don't socialize as much as most people do... I'm kinda judgemental on that internally (on *BOTH* men and women who sleep around with many partners without any internal deliberation) ... so I'm equal on that ;)... I'm also a virgin in my mid 20s so its completely different from my life style (no I'm not religious). And I figure though its their own buisness, so I don't every bring it up... I don't want to discuss peoples convoluted love lifes (and I HATE small talk with a passion...). If its brought up, and I hear people judging people (for just about anything that seems racist/sexist/etc) I'll object. But then I'm naturally contrary as well ;)

2) I know one women that doesn't enhance looks w/ make up. ME ;) My mother doesn't, unless its special occasion, but my two sister's do. In additional to being introverted I'm pretty unobservant of my surrounds, I'd say its a hodgepodge at work.. the younger women do tend to wear make-up... the older women tend to wear no or minimal make-up.

On the list of things I do NOT do with my appearance, that many people think N. American women should, at least on occasion:
a. Wear Make-up
b. Wear high heels
c. Wear skirts
d. Shave

One thing is, I may not shave, but I don't like unwanted attention (read above: INTROVERT) and so while I may not shave, most people wouldn't know it, I don't wear shorts or sleeveless shirts. Even in summer (I'll wear short sleeves of course).
I figure most women probably spend 5 mins at least shaving every other day. Even if they only do it 15-45 thats 19 days of their life they won't get back. I'm way to pragmatic and practical to add what I see an unneccessary tasks to my daily routine. Real hygiene, such as oral hygiene, I'll do of course. The only thing I put on my face is moisterizer w/ SPF.

As for the other two... I don't get out much... I'm in a small city with no entertainment besides bars and I do NOT do bars... I hate small talk... and my family learned a long time ago not to say something that will make my contrary nature surface ;) .... so I'll leave someone else to address those questions.

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[*]How often have you accepted that a man takes the lead although you have known that you can do it (whatever it was) better or at least as good as he?

Hadn't had enough opportunity to say. The odd time I'd had worked in partners or in a group supposively as equals...
School group projects... usually I was taking up the slack of the guys who were happy to leave the lead up to me :p

Quote

[*]How often have you taken up the role of the host, shopping, cooking, preparing dinner, serving the guests, while nearly the only duty your male partner seems to have is making conversations with the guests. Even when he helped with the dishes, or did the cooking: did you take it for granted, or were you melting away because it was soooo sweet of him to help you? Have you ever stopped to question this role allocation?
Probably a better angle is my grandma... she is needing more and more help as she advances in age. Does she call her one and only son in town? Not unless its a computer or yard maintainence problem... maybe if she needs a fast food meal picked up... Any domestic like things, or someone to go shopping with... her daughter/daughter-in-law/granddaughter... And 2.5 of those people hate shopping...

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[*]How many of you have called a fellow woman a women's libber just because she said that there is no equality between women and men, and that this is neither "natural nor fair"?
Skipping, ask someone who has a life :p :D

Quote

[*]How many of you don't have a problem with asking a man to do the lawn mowing, tire exchange, plumbing,.. just because, well, they are chores done by men?
We have a gas lawn mower and I cannot get it started *shrugs* And I ain't going to wait around for him to feel like starting it for me :p
I don't have a car.
Basic household maintainence should be taught in school, but it hasn't come up.
You forgot taking out the garbage and recycling! I do that, though probably not as often as I keep forgetting the dates (different date for each pick up).

Quote

I have done and thought all of the above (except for "things women don't do...", and calling a woman a feminist /women's libber), some of them while already feeling that this is wrong, and I am deeply ashamed that it takes me so long to get rid of these "bad habits".

Briefly in high school I tried a couple of appearance modifying, but never consistantly, I doubt I did any of it more than a week.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 May 2007 - 09:02 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#43 SparkyCola

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:59 AM

There are some things women AND men shouldn't do in the name of politeness, imo, and for me it's more that men are allowed to get away with it - when they shouldn't be- rather than women not being allowed to do it.

On the other hand there are things that "just aren't lady-like" as they say, which used to annoy me as a kid. "Lady-like" indeed :rolleyes:

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#44 sierraleone

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:02 AM

View PostSolar Wind, on May 22 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 02:19 AM, said:

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo!

In the US, men (the "powerful party in control") gave women the right to vote. Think about it. Women couldn't vote. Every person who voted for the Constitutional Amendment was a man.

Lets requote that in whole Solar Wind

Quote

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo! (And I do exclude people like Joss Whedon or any guy here who thinks in the same line...) It's always the suppressed, mistreated, seemingly powerless people who have to solidarize and stand up in order to get a better treatment. The truth as I see it is - we have to start with ourselves, our way of thinking, before we point our finger at other people or societies.

Women were trying to get this done for, IIRC, 50 years before men changed their mind. Sure men 'decided' it, but wouldn't have if women didn't fight for it for decades prior.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#45 G1223

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:14 AM

View Postsierraleone, on May 22 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

1) I haven't heard women call women slut

My dear mother was a school teacher and she did call a couple of the girls she taught sluts. The one I remember the most. She pointed a girl who was taken by her boyfriend down to a local college town and he pimped her out for the whole weekend.  The girl was trying to shock my mom out with that news.  Mom looked in the eye and said to her. "Did you at least keep the money." the girl realized she was the fool.

I heard her say it about typically of small group of women who showed no reguard for themselves and the people around them.

Edited by G1223, 22 May 2007 - 09:26 AM.

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#46 SparkyCola

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:19 AM

Joss has more to say about it - a fantastic speech by him is on YouTube:

Joss's Speech

I would recommend watching it ^

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#47 Nonny

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 10:38 AM

View Postsierraleone, on May 22 2007, 07:02 AM, said:

View PostSolar Wind, on May 22 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

View PostIlyanna, on May 22 2007, 02:19 AM, said:

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo!

In the US, men (the "powerful party in control") gave women the right to vote. Think about it. Women couldn't vote. Every person who voted for the Constitutional Amendment was a man.

Lets requote that in whole Solar Wind

Quote

But one thing I know for certain is that when changes in a society happen, they have never been done by the powerful party in control (which in this case is the male part of the human race). They don't think anything's wrong with the status quo! (And I do exclude people like Joss Whedon or any guy here who thinks in the same line...) It's always the suppressed, mistreated, seemingly powerless people who have to solidarize and stand up in order to get a better treatment. The truth as I see it is - we have to start with ourselves, our way of thinking, before we point our finger at other people or societies.

Women were trying to get this done for, IIRC, 50 years before men changed their mind. Sure men 'decided' it, but wouldn't have if women didn't fight for it for decades prior.
Seneca Falls, 1848, I think.  Women's suffrage was one of the topics of discussion.  Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 17??, to remind him that women need rights too.  More like 150 years, at least for this country.  Millennia, for humanity, I suspect.  

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#48 Nonny

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 10:48 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 22 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Joss has more to say about it - a fantastic speech by him is on YouTube:

Joss's Speech

I would recommend watching it ^

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#49 White Tiger

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:51 AM

I am officially declaring myself a soldier of whedon. I will fight and die for him...WHO IS WITH ME!!!
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#50 Cheile

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:01 PM

^ me!

(btw where does one get one of those "Joss is Boss" tshirts?  i SO want one!)

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#51 RobL

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:48 PM

I just buy his DVDs, and make him money. That's probalby what he likes. being abke to buy dipers for his kid.

At least, I remmber him having a kid not tolong ago. I could be wrong

Bring back Darthsikle!


#52 scherzo

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 12:16 AM

Quote

In the US, men (the "powerful party in control") gave women the right to vote. Think about it. Women couldn't vote. Every person who voted for the Constitutional Amendment was a man.
In the US, men are universally APPALLED at horrific treatment of women by Muslim extremists. But for some unfathomable reason, we ALL get the sermon from Saint Joss. I've seen video of Muslim extremists tearing some guy limb from limb in between 2 vehicles. Beheadings, torture, mutilation, carried out indiscriminately against men/women/children...in the name of a twisted culture that American women look rather foolish comparing their circumstances to.

On the subject of popular culture, I think Whedon's "enlightened activism" could very easily be turned on his very own creations. Witness Angel's final season, where BOTH female leads were subjected to an early grave. On BTVS, Anya was sliced in 2, and Willow's girlfriend shot through the chest. Do we get to question his moral underpinnings, because he perpetrates violence against his fictional women? Or would that be silly, because we've seen violence in equal or greater measure shown occurring to males on his programs? Funny thing is, violence on screen occurs much more frequently to men in ALL tv and movies near as I can tell, so I suppose the benefit of the doubt would have to extend to pretty much everyone behind the camera.

-scherzo
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#53 RobL

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 12:24 AM

View Postscherzo, on May 22 2007, 09:16 PM, said:

Quote

In the US, men (the "powerful party in control") gave women the right to vote. Think about it. Women couldn't vote. Every person who voted for the Constitutional Amendment was a man.
In the US, men are universally APPALLED at horrific treatment of women by Muslim extremists. But for some unfathomable reason, we ALL get the sermon from Saint Joss. I've seen video of Muslim extremists tearing some guy limb from limb in between 2 vehicles. Beheadings, torture, mutilation, carried out indiscriminately against men/women/children...in the name of a twisted culture that American women look rather foolish comparing their circumstances to.

On the subject of popular culture, I think Whedon's "enlightened activism" could very easily be turned on his very own creations. Witness Angel's final season, where BOTH female leads were subjected to an early grave. On BTVS, Anya was sliced in 2, and Willow's girlfriend shot through the chest. Do we get to question his moral underpinnings, because he perpetrates violence against his fictional women? Or would that be silly, because we've seen violence in equal or greater measure shown occurring to males on his programs? Funny thing is, violence on screen occurs much more frequently to men in ALL tv and movies near as I can tell, so I suppose the benefit of the doubt would have to extend to pretty much everyone behind the camera.

-scherzo

I liked the blue chick better than fred. Blue chick was hotter than fred. Plus, she wore leather, which is always a turn on.

sorry, cant remember her character's name right now.

cordy wouldn't have been killed off, except caraisma carpender got knocked up during the previous season, and she wanted to spendmmore time with her new baby. undserstanable IMO. easiest way to do write out a charater is to kill them, unfortuanelty. Besides, in the buffy world, dead dosen't men completey gone.

bTW, I thought Angel the show was better than buffy the show.

Bring back Darthsikle!


#54 Ilyanna

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 02:01 AM

sierraleone: oh great, you just had to go and refute the points I made by being the exception, right?  :p [j/k]

Solar Wind: sierraleone and Nonny have already made the point, but I'd like to repeat it:
the men were forced to give women the right to vote, it was an act of "sh*t, I guess we can't postpone it any longer, the chicks just don't stop bickering" rather than a noble "oh, it's not fair to treat women like that, we aught to give them more rights".
I stand by what I said (well, tried to say, anyway): if you are suppressed, don't wait for tptb to change things for you.  Make sure you don't support them (actively or passively) and search for a way to make it better.

scherzo: Well I certainly hope (and am quite sure) that the majority of men in the US are appalled at what happened to Dua Khalil and any other horrific treatment of women. But I really don't like the insinuation that women who are treated better shouldn't complain about the grievances in their society as long as there are other ones that are treated worse. No-one has compared the circumstances of US women to those of women elsewhere. I didn't, and neither has Mr. Whedon.
I do think that a crime like that can, and should, also be used to make people aware of inequities some place else. Pointing out the errors and crimes of another culture is always easier than seeing the misgivings in your own, so sometimes, combining the two in one argument at least makes sure that a few people stop looking solely beyond their own noses to take a good look at themselves, for once.

I may be wrong, but what I read in the article posted at Whedonesque was not criticism about violence against women in US TV, I'll quote Joss again because he says it so much better than I ever could:

Quote

The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is ďIím sorryĒ.
(Bolding mine).

Quote

Womenís inferiority Ė in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere theyíre sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished.
Regarding Angel and BTVS: all I can say to you is that yes, he killed female characters on the shows. It would have been completely idiotic and unrealistic (ok, so I use that term in connection with vampire stories... so sue me) not to. He also killed male characters.
The point is that he wrote some of the strongest female characters in contemporary TV, and before the characters had to die, all of them had had the chance to evolve into women who were strong and quite independent, they were not victimized due to their gender, and they certainly didn't have to apologize for being female.


RobL: blue chick = Illyria, and yeah, I liked her better, too.

Edited by Ilyanna, 23 May 2007 - 03:04 AM.

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#55 G1223

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 06:55 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 23 2007, 03:01 AM, said:

Quote

The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is ďIím sorryĒ.
(Bolding mine).

Quote

Womenís inferiority Ė in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere theyíre sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished.

Ah sorry after hearing from fan after fan of how great and gory Hostel was and seeing how they switched genders this time so it's three girls who are being tortured by rich sickos. I can only say. I susepct that from the movie Hostel and Hostel II both sets of victims were saying they were sorry.

We have allowed Hollywood to give us this sort of crap that it is not the gender that worries me. It is that such crap is dehumanizing and a sign of how sick we have gotten as a culture.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

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#56 sierraleone

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 07:53 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 23 2007, 03:01 AM, said:

sierraleone: oh great, you just had to go and refute the points I made by being the exception, right?  :p [j/k]

Well after reading and going through your questions I figured we should find someone with a social life to answer them ;) I'm pretty atypical not only in who I am myself, but how I interact socially, and with how many people.

I've seen the word slut... just now in the Paris Hilton thread ;) But I don't know who on-line is male or female ;)
I of course have heard the word the word as well, but I can't recall a specific time... people who do resort to that kind of name calling I generally don't want to associate with.

If I had a social life of any signifigance I probably would have come up w/ a lot of examples proving you at least on the points of how women judge other women, because I believe you're right.
But myself as an example of what women do to themselves for "beauty"? Ah no.

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be verrry uncomfortable going "european" publicly. I went to the beach last year, I didn't shave.... took a little while to get comfortable. So I have internalized some of the messages, I just tend to try to ignorn them, rather thorougly.

Edited by sierraleone, 23 May 2007 - 07:56 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#57 Palisades

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 09:27 AM

View PostIlyanna, on May 23 2007, 01:01 AM, said:

Solar Wind: sierraleone and Nonny have already made the point, but I'd like to repeat it:
the men were forced to give women the right to vote, it was an act of "sh*t, I guess we can't postpone it any longer, the chicks just don't stop bickering"

How does bickering force "the powerful" to do something? The fact of the matter is that men had a chokehold on political power and if they truly wished to keep women down, women could bicker and protest until they were blue in the face and they still wouldn't have gotten the XIX Amendment passed. The protests and demonstrations raised awareness of the issue as did the granting of suffrage to blacks, but in the end it was males that gave women the right to vote. Just as whites gave blacks the right to vote. (And most of the people arguing for abolition of slavery and suffrage for blacks were white, BTW. So that's a pretty good example of the "powerful party in control" being the driving force for societal change and equality.)

Your better argument would be that suffrage was granted by the political party in control because they thought that would give them the votes of the people they had granted suffrage to. That argument at least makes sense and has some historical support.
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#58 sierraleone

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 09:47 AM

View PostSolar Wind, on May 23 2007, 10:27 AM, said:

View PostIlyanna, on May 23 2007, 01:01 AM, said:

Solar Wind: sierraleone and Nonny have already made the point, but I'd like to repeat it:
the men were forced to give women the right to vote, it was an act of "sh*t, I guess we can't postpone it any longer, the chicks just don't stop bickering"

How does bickering force "the powerful" to do something? The fact of the matter is that men had a chokehold on political power and if they truly wished to keep women down, women could bicker and protest until they were blue in the face and they still wouldn't have gotten the XIX Amendment passed. The protests and demonstrations raised awareness of the issue as did the granting of suffrage to blacks , but in the end it was males that gave women the right to vote. Just as whites gave blacks the right to vote. (And most of the people arguing for abolition of slavery and suffrage for blacks were white, BTW. So that's a pretty good example of the "powerful party in control" being the driving force for societal change and equality.)

Your better argument would be that suffrage was granted by the political party in control because they thought that would give them the votes of the people they had granted suffrage to. That argument at least makes sense and has some historical support.

If it were not for that bit I bolded it would sound like you believe the powerless have any way to influence change whatsoever, that those in power just finally see the light of their own volition without any help. Its silly to think that in most cases in history those men would have even thought about it if there had been no movement.

And yes, there were men in the movement. Just as their were women against suffrage. Your point?
First of all I would think not all men in the movement would be in a position of power that would enact changes in the law.
Secondly I would think that few of the politicians that supported women's suffrage would not be vocal about it for politically expedient reasons in the decades leading up suffrage, not to mention you'd need a majority of politicians in a democracy to be signifigant enough to enact changes. What would the lone guy have going for him? Maybe not alone but he won't know if his co-workers are silent too.

Sure there might have been some political expedient reasons for allowing women to vote that had nothing to do with belief in equal rights, but as pointed out above the issue had to be raised first.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#59 Palisades

Palisades

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 10:16 AM

View Postsierraleone, on May 23 2007, 08:47 AM, said:

And yes, there were men in the movement. Just as their were women against suffrage. Your point?
What part of my post are you referring to?


Quote

Sure there might have been some political expedient reasons for allowing women to vote that had nothing to do with belief in equal rights, but as pointed out above the issue had to be raised first.
I don't think that the main reason suffrage was granted to blacks and women was to get their votes. I was giving it as an argument that holds together better than saying that bickering somehow forced the party in control to grant suffrage.

Suffrage for blacks
I'm having trouble finding a good link on women's suffrage.

Edited by Solar Wind, 23 May 2007 - 10:21 AM.

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#60 sierraleone

sierraleone

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 10:28 AM

View PostSolar Wind, on May 23 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

View Postsierraleone, on May 23 2007, 08:47 AM, said:

And yes, there were men in the movement. Just as their were women against suffrage. Your point?
What part of my post are you referring to?

Sorry, believe it or not, it referenced this part:

Quote

And most of the people arguing for abolition of slavery and suffrage for blacks were white, BTW.

I referenced gender instead of race. I figure all movements are somewhat like that though... a few or some of the "privileged" class is on the side of the oppressed class, and a few of the oppressed class perpetuate the system and actually support it.
(Of course, some of the oppressed class is in no position to do anything but perpetuate it unless they want to be harm, so by no means is this a blank statement saying all who perpetuate it support it).
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html



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