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"Itís safe to say that Iíve snapped." Joss Whedon

Islam Honor Killings Sunni Muslims Joss Whedon 2007

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#81 Raina

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:47 AM

Are women really "required" by society to wear makeup though, or do they just perceive that they are? I only wear makeup occasionally, and I've never worn makeup to job interviews. Granted, you could argue that maybe if I had worn makeup, I would have gotten a few jobs that I didn't. But do employers actually expect women to wear makeup, or do women choose to wear makeup to interviews because they believe that it makes them look prettier? Personally, I prefer to go without makeup because a) I don't want to have to worry about being judged for the quality of my makeup job or the colours I used and b) I don't want to have to worry about it getting messed up before or during the interview. Better to just go as I am (though I will put on a nice outfit), and if the job is one that requires me to look perfectly made up and put together, then it's not a job that I'd be happy with anyways.


You could also point out that, in a way, women actually have more freedom to wear what they want (in some parts of the world at least). A woman can wear either pants or a dress to practically any event, but men can only get away with wearing dresses at very very specific events. A woman can choose to wear makeup or choose to not wear makeup, but a man who chooses to wear makeup is looked upon as a nonconformist and a freak. I've always felt that being a woman gives me much more freedom to choose how to dress. Granted, I'd be expected to wear at least a bit of makeup and a dress for very formal occasions, but then men are expected to wear suits for those types of occasions.

And if I were a guy, I'd probably still wear makeup about as often as I do now. :devil:

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#82 Nonny

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 11:26 AM

View PostRaina, on May 26 2007, 01:47 AM, said:

Are women really "required" by society to wear makeup though, or do they just perceive that they are? I only wear makeup occasionally, and I've never worn makeup to job interviews. Granted, you could argue that maybe if I had worn makeup, I would have gotten a few jobs that I didn't. But do employers actually expect women to wear makeup, or do women choose to wear makeup to interviews because they believe that it makes them look prettier?
Apparently some employers judge women applicants by their makeup, and a total lack of it is perceived as too independent, even aggressive.  

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Personally, I prefer to go without makeup because a) I don't want to have to worry about being judged for the quality of my makeup job or the colours I used and b) I don't want to have to worry about it getting messed up before or during the interview.
Makes sense to me.  

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Better to just go as I am (though I will put on a nice outfit), and if the job is one that requires me to look perfectly made up and put together, then it's not a job that I'd be happy with anyways.
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#83 SparkyCola

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:13 PM

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I am curious... which one are you referring to? (I hated the demise of Doyle, even although I know that the actor died a few years later and would have had to be written out of the story anyway...)

I was actually thinking of....

Spoiler: click to show/hide
Don't read if you haven't yet seen Serenity....


Spoiler: click to show/hide
Wash. :cry:


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You said " Times when make up is required, I wear it" - my question is... why is it required, and by whom?

I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing make-up if you want to. I cringe when I see otherwise pretty girls who are unnecessarily caked in make-up - but it's just like doing your hair or wearing nice clothes - I do that for ME - *I* want to look reasonably good (or at least good according to my own style). I very rarely wear make-up, and I probably could do with wearing it - it's too much of a hassle to worry about whether it's smudged or whatever. Sometimes a bit of mascara and jewellery helps psych you up for an evening out though.

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And a question is exactly that - not a hidden accusal or demand - I just think that sometimes it is a good idea to challenge paradigms, to question why oneself is believing or taking for granted a certain thing.

Quite so, at the same time rebelling sometimes isn't worth it- and you have to question why you really want to be different- and if it really is just for the sake of being different, then I'd say there are some self-esteem issues there.

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Apparently some employers judge women applicants by their makeup, and a total lack of it is perceived as too independent, even aggressive.

I'm in trouble. As if it's not gonna be hard enough in the industry I'm aiming for :(

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#84 Ilyanna

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 04:01 AM

Dev F said:

That assumes that creating non-politically-correct characters is a "sin," which I certainly don't agree with (snip)

And neither do I. For the record, the "I don't believe that in order to criticize something, or to make people aware of something, one has to be 100% free from sin" wasn't supposed to refer to the previous sentence - I meant this to be a general statement. Sorry if that caused any confusion.

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Heck, it's not even a theory reflected in Islamist culture. When women are forced to wear veils, cover their figures, etc., it's generally because their society doubts the ability of men to behave morally in the face of female hotness. As a guy in Gaza told my sister one time, when he sees a pretty girl, the devil comes and sits on his shoulder.
Even then, why are the women the ones who have to wear veils, cover their figures, etc when the men are the ones not having control over themselves? This is similar to the old argument "if the woman didn't want to be raped, why did she wear a miniskirt?". This is nothing less than a thinly veiled (pun intended :p ) attempt to lay the blame on the women instead of where it belongs. If you (general you) cannot control your instincts, GET HELP, but don't force anybody else to suffer for your shortcomings.


Nonny said:

Okay, I admit it. I thought about this thread yesterday when I fell into the clutches of a Clinique lady at the Navy Exchange at North Island NAS. Did I want a makeover? Hell, yeah! Did it make me feel once, twice, three times a lady? Well, no. Actually, I felt like a dork. It wasn't her fault. For some reason, she put brown eyeliner, eye shadow and mascara on me, and while it did bring out the blue in my eyes, wearing a blue or purple shirt does that too, without making me look like Brian Dennehy in drag. eek2.gif
:howling:


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You could also point out that, in a way, women actually have more freedom to wear what they want (in some parts of the world at least). A woman can wear either pants or a dress to practically any event, but men can only get away with wearing dresses at very very specific events. A woman can choose to wear makeup or choose to not wear makeup, but a man who chooses to wear makeup is looked upon as a nonconformist and a freak. I've always felt that being a woman gives me much more freedom to choose how to dress. Granted, I'd be expected to wear at least a bit of makeup and a dress for very formal occasions, but then men are expected to wear suits for those types of occasions.
Now that is definitely a point of view I will have to think long and hard about...


SparkyCola:
With challenging a paradigm I didn't mean that one has to change the way one acts. What I was trying to get at was that I think it's better to understand where a certain thought or behaviour we take for granted comes from, and reflect if we really stand behind that thought or not. I'll give an example:
As a teenager I was told, and learned by examples, that as a woman, it is normal to enhance my looks with the use of mascara, eyeliner, lipstick, make-up. The few women I met who went "natural" weren't enough influence to let me think otherwise. So I painted my face. I never reflected on the reasons why exactly I, as an individual, did so. (= paradigma)
Some years ago, I became increasingly annoyed with this whole make-up thing, (it was expensive, my eyes began to hurt from the eyeliner, I became conscious of the fact that make-up isn't the healthiest thing in the world for the skin...) so I stopped using it altogether. What followed was quite the discomfort: I didn't like my naked face when I looked in the mirror, I felt insecure when meeting other people, some helpful women actually told me to use mascara to "highlight" my eyes.
That made me wonder why make-up originally had been invented. The only conclusion I came to was: to attract potential sex partners. Throughout the millenia, people have added quite a bunch of reasons to that basic one: to feel pretty (why?), to have more self-esteem (by painting your face?), to look healthy (why, if you aren't. And if you are, the naked face will show it, too, right?), because society demands it in certain situations (why does it demand that?). But all of that can, IMO, be stripped down to the original reason.
This questioning, this reflection on the reasons is what I meant by challenging a paradigm.

FTR: I still use make-up, when I feel like it - for example when I want to look attractive for somebody (=looking to have sex with him ;) ), or when not doing so would mean disadvantages I am not willing to put up with. Rebelling against make-up? LMAO, no, not really!
I may be uncontent with the status quo in this case, but there are quite a lot of other causes I feel compelled to rebel against (without making a total idiot out of myself, too) ;)
Nonny has said it very, very well:

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But I don't think that wearing it should be a cultural imperative. Or that not wearing it should either. Choice, that's what I'm saying.


Oh, and
Spoiler: click to show/hide
Yeah, Wash's death was pure cruelty on Joss' part.

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
C. Palahniuk

#85 SparkyCola

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 06:00 AM

Ilyanna, I agree :nod: well said.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 29 May 2007 - 06:00 AM.

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