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Lethal Injection

Crime Death Penalty Lethal Injection 2007

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#41 GiGi

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 03:50 PM

^ Actually, I totally agree Hambil.  I have read countless stories about previously wild animals were put down because they attacked humans.  From elephants to tigers to reptiles, etc.  Never mind that the human is in the wrong most of the time, be it an abusive trainer, a human touching an animal when they shouldn't to an accident.  

My pig bit me once, really bad, I could have lost my leg due to infection. He got "one strike" against him in the books of the animal control dept.  It was completely an accident, but had it been the third strike he would have been taken from me and put down. Luckily he hasn't done anything since, but he is an animal with animal instincts that don't go away. He has "nipped" since, usually when a human is doing something stupid and inappropriate.  Just like the guy that was poking a finger in my parrot's face, he got a nip too.  It's like "hello, I just told you....don't do that, you will get bit"

Stupid humans are mostly the cause of trouble when previously wild animals are subject to domestication, why should the animals pay with their lives?
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#42 Vapor Trails

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 08:03 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on May 27 2007, 04:28 PM, said:

Quote

I'm probably not going to make myself popular here, but I don't see animal life as having the same value as human life. That doesn't mean I think it has less value, just that I don't value animal life in quite the same way. Yes, contextually you are taking a life in both cases, but while I don't see humans as anything special, I do see humans as something different from anything else in the animal kingdom.

I also see a distinction between putting down an animal for violent behaviour (which I liken to the death penalty) and putting down a sick or injured animal.

Maybe it's just me though.

I agree with that ^ only, Gode said it much better than I could have. That distinction is definitely there because putting a sick animal down is much more analogous with euthenasia, whereas putting an animal down for violent behaviour is more like the death penalty.

Don't get me wrong, I love animals, truly. I really couldn't hurt a fly. And if there were a better way of dealing with animals which were violent I would advocate that - but ...well, what Gode said.

Sparky

Two points.

Gode, um-aren't you contradicting yourself here? You say you don't see humans as "anything special", but then you say you "see humans as something different from anything else in the animal kingdom."   :blink:  So-which is it? There obviously must be something special about humans if you see them as "something different from anything else in the animal kingdom". :whatsthat:

Sparky, you confuse me, too. How can you agree with Gode if you're against the death penalty?  :blink:  Isn't a human being an animal as well?  :blink:
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#43 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 08:36 PM

For me it's all about what the intent of the death penalty is. If it's revenge then all this talk about not painful enough and each family member getting a shot is I suppose fitting.

If it's for deterrence I suppose that making "an example" then worrying about suffering is not a big priority I guess.

But for me (and that's all I'm talking about) it's not either of those things.  It's about society excising that which has been proven to be irretrevably antithetical to the society.  Like burning cancer cells with radiation.  In that light there is no need to impose punitive suffering (hello, killing someone is rather punishment enough anyways) or making an example, it's about ensuring the safety of the society as a whole by acknowledging the need to excise that which, if allowed to flourish, will destroy it.

Now, that said, it's theoretical.  As a practical matter I think the death penalty doesn't work as administered.  Too much potential for error in states like Texas and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time and expense in ensuring proper access to courts in California.

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#44 Godeskian

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 02:15 AM

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

Gode, um-aren't you contradicting yourself here? You say you don't see humans as "anything special", but then you say you "see humans as something different from anything else in the animal kingdom."   :blink:  So-which is it? There obviously must be something special about humans if you see them as "something different from anything else in the animal kingdom". :whatsthat:

In this context, no. Different is not the same thing as superior or better, a concept that is implicit in 'special' Perhaps it's merely the specific words we're using, but while I do see humans as something different (akin to how squares and circles are different, but neither one is better or superior than the other except in limited circumstances) I don't see us as being anything special.

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#45 Hambil

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 02:38 AM

If we want the death penalty to be a deterrent, then I've always said give the bailiff a sledge hammer and the front row in the courthouse a plastic sheet. When the jury says 'guilty' it will be just like a Gallagher concert, only with brains instead of watermelon guts.

#46 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:04 AM

View PostGodeskian, on May 28 2007, 03:15 AM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

Gode, um-aren't you contradicting yourself here? You say you don't see humans as "anything special", but then you say you "see humans as something different from anything else in the animal kingdom."   :blink:  So-which is it? There obviously must be something special about humans if you see them as "something different from anything else in the animal kingdom". :whatsthat:

In this context, no. Different is not the same thing as superior or better, a concept that is implicit in 'special' Perhaps it's merely the specific words we're using, but while I do see humans as something different (akin to how squares and circles are different, but neither one is better or superior than the other except in limited circumstances) I don't see us as being anything special.

(DM scratches his head)

With all due respect, my friend-I think you're REALLY splitting hairs here. I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, but you are applying two different standards-one to humans and one to animals. Why does it appear that way to me?

It's because you used the word value. As I see it-the moment you used that word, you automatically are making humans special.

So-you're still contradicting yourself.
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#47 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:19 AM

Hambil & Gigi....

Very intriguing posts, in reference to animal trials. In fact, so much so, I think I'm gonna start a separate thread...

Edited by Digital Man, 28 May 2007 - 09:19 AM.

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"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#48 Godeskian

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:44 AM

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 03:04 PM, said:

(DM scratches his head)

With all due respect, my friend-I think you're REALLY splitting hairs here. I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, but you are applying two different standards-one to humans and one to animals. Why does it appear that way to me?

It's because you used the word value. As I see it-the moment you used that word, you automatically are making humans special.

So-you're still contradicting yourself.

You see it as splitting hairs, but to me it's a very fundamental part of how I see the natural world. However it's obvious that I'm either not explaining it properly, or that you and I have hit a philosophical deadlock on how we view things, so I'm going to sit down and think of a better way to explain it to you, so that if it does turn out we're at a deadlock, then at least it will be because we're both talking about exactly the same thing.

Defy Gravity!


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#49 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:51 AM

View PostGodeskian, on May 28 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 03:04 PM, said:

(DM scratches his head)

With all due respect, my friend-I think you're REALLY splitting hairs here. I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, but you are applying two different standards-one to humans and one to animals. Why does it appear that way to me?

It's because you used the word value. As I see it-the moment you used that word, you automatically are making humans special.

So-you're still contradicting yourself.

You see it as splitting hairs, but to me it's a very fundamental part of how I see the natural world. However it's obvious that I'm either not explaining it properly, or that you and I have hit a philosophical deadlock on how we view things, so I'm going to sit down and think of a better way to explain it to you, so that if it does turn out we're at a deadlock, then at least it will be because we're both talking about exactly the same thing.

The more I think about it, our deadlock centers on your use of the word value.

Your words:

Quote

I'm probably not going to make myself popular here, but I don't see animal life as having the same value as human life. That doesn't mean I think it has less value, just that I don't value animal life in quite the same way.

Your use of the word value, to me, automatically is making humans special.

Edited by Digital Man, 28 May 2007 - 09:53 AM.

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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#50 Godeskian

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:53 AM

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 03:51 PM, said:

The more I think about it, our deadlock centers on your use of the word value.

Your words:

Quote

I'm probably not going to make myself popular here, but I don't see animal life as having the same value as human life. That doesn't mean I think it has less value, just that I don't value animal life in quite the same way.

Your use of the word value, to me, automatically is making humans special.

Possibly a bad choice of words on my part, however did you notice the second sentence where i specifically state I don't think animals are any less valuable, simply different?

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#51 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 10:09 AM

View PostGodeskian, on May 28 2007, 10:53 AM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 03:51 PM, said:

The more I think about it, our deadlock centers on your use of the word value.

Your words:

Quote

I'm probably not going to make myself popular here, but I don't see animal life as having the same value as human life. That doesn't mean I think it has less value, just that I don't value animal life in quite the same way.

Your use of the word value, to me, automatically is making humans special.

Possibly a bad choice of words on my part, however did you notice the second sentence where i specifically state I don't think animals are any less valuable, simply different?

Posted Image

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:p~

LOL, I have to head out with my mom.  :lol: We'll chat more later.

:)
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#52 Rhea

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 11:30 AM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on May 27 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

For me it's all about what the intent of the death penalty is. If it's revenge then all this talk about not painful enough and each family member getting a shot is I suppose fitting.

If it's for deterrence I suppose that making "an example" then worrying about suffering is not a big priority I guess.

But for me (and that's all I'm talking about) it's not either of those things.  It's about society excising that which has been proven to be irretrevably antithetical to the society.  Like burning cancer cells with radiation.  In that light there is no need to impose punitive suffering (hello, killing someone is rather punishment enough anyways) or making an example, it's about ensuring the safety of the society as a whole by acknowledging the need to excise that which, if allowed to flourish, will destroy it.

Now, that said, it's theoretical.  As a practical matter I think the death penalty doesn't work as administered.  Too much potential for error in states like Texas and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time and expense in ensuring proper access to courts in California.

Lil

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#53 Godeskian

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 02:03 PM

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

LOL, I have to head out with my mom.  :lol: We'll chat more later.

Unfortunately DM, I am very human. I am illogical and contradictory from time to time. However in this case I think we're getting hung up on the word value, while missing the main point, which is that difference doesn't necesarry imply superiority of either side, merely difference.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#54 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 02:06 PM

View PostGodeskian, on May 28 2007, 03:03 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on May 28 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

LOL, I have to head out with my mom.  :lol: We'll chat more later.

Unfortunately DM, I am very human. I am illogical and contradictory from time to time. However in this case I think we're getting hung up on the word value, while missing the main point, which is that difference doesn't necesarry imply superiority of either side, merely difference.


And in my case, sometimes I'm just plain silly. :p~
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait



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