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Plame was ‘covert’ agent at time of name leak

Valerie Plame CIA Leak Case 2007

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#21 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:50 AM

Specs - There's a "Niger" section and "conclusions" in the 3 Repub chapter of the Additional Views.
But there is *also* a Niger section and over 100 conclusions in the main body.
Are you seeing the Additional Views startings at pg. 441?
http://www.globalsec...-intell_toc.htm

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#22 Spectacles

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:19 PM

Ah, thanks! That link presents the report in a much more readable (to me, anyway :) ) format than the dang pdf. Now I see what you're talking about. You're right. Wilson's trip to Niger *was* dealt with in the body of the committee report.

Quote

(U) On February 26, 2002, the former ambassador arrived in Niger. He told Committee staff that he first met with Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick to discuss his upcoming meetings. Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick asked him not to meet with current Nigerien officials because she believed it might complicate her continuing diplomatic efforts with them on the uranium issue. The former ambassador agreed to restrict his meetings to former officials and the private sector.

(  ) The former ambassador told Committee staff that he met with the former Nigerien Prime Minister, the former Minister of Mines and Energy, and other business contacts. At the end of his visit, he debriefed Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick                                          , Chad. He told Committee staff that he had told both U.S. officials he thought there was "nothing to the story." Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick told Committee staff she recalled the former ambassador saying "he had reached the same conclusions that the embassy had reached, that it was highly unlikely that anything was going on."

(U) On March 1, 2002, INR published an intelligence assessment, Niger: Sale of Uranium to Iraq Is Unlikely. The INR analyst who drafted the assessment told Committee staff that he had been told that the piece was in response to interest from the Vice President's office in the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal. The assessment reiterated 1NR's view that France controlled the uranium industry and "would take action to block a sale of the kind alleged in a CIA report of questionable credibility from a foreign government service." The assessment added that "some officials may have conspired for individual gain to arrange a uranium sale," but considered President Tandja's government unlikely to risk relations with the U.S. and other key aid donors. In a written response to a question from Committee staff on this matter, the Department of State said the assessment was distributed through the routine distribution process in which intelligence documents are delivered to the White House situation room, but State did not provide the assessment directly to the Vice President in a special delivery.

Aside from picking nits about Wilson's recollection of details, the bolded part seems more important to me.

If we have intelligence agencies in our country concluding that Niger's sale of uranium to Iraq "Is Unlikely," if we the DCI himself striking references to it from a speech Bush gave before the American Enterprise Institute in the fall of 2002 before the 2003 SOTU, then why on earth was it included in the SOTU in January?  If the Bush Administration knew there was serious doubt about the claim (and they did), why share this as a certainty with the American people? What could be their possible motivation?
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#23 Cait

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:40 PM

View PostSpectacles, on May 31 2007, 11:19 AM, said:

Aside from picking nits about Wilson's recollection of details, the bolded part seems more important to me.

If we have intelligence agencies in our country concluding that Niger's sale of uranium to Iraq "Is Unlikely," if we the DCI himself striking references to it from a speech Bush gave before the American Enterprise Institute in the fall of 2002 before the 2003 SOTU, then why on earth was it included in the SOTU in January?  If the Bush Administration knew there was serious doubt about the claim (and they did), why share this as a certainty with the American people? What could be their possible motivation?

Ah I see we got back to the real issue.  Thanks Specs, you have a lot more patience than I do and I for one appreciate it every time you show it.

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#24 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 02:16 PM

Because I don't share your assumption there.
I don't know why this gets blurred, other than willful squinting:  2 different ideas- active attempts by Iraq, and whether they likely would have succeeded in garnering a sale.
The attempt by Iraq in obtaining uranium was well founded at the time, based on the majority of all analysis.
Further, there was concern about tipping our secret methodology by mentioning such intell, not about the, at that point, veracity of the statement.  This distinction was especially delved into by the committee investigation.
http://www.globalsec..._chapter2-i.htm
(U) Conclusion 21. When coordinating the State of the Union, no Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) analysts or officials told the National Security Council (NSC) to remove the "16 words" or that there were concerns about the credibility of the Iraq-Niger uranium reporting. A CIA official's original testimony to the Committee that he told an NSC official to remove the words "Niger" and "500 tons" from the speech, is incorrect.

Slogging through that report this a.m. there was names and more,
but my brain's fried and it's not like reflipping through People Magazine  :p

Edited by Nittany Lioness, 31 May 2007 - 02:19 PM.

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#25 Cait

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:57 PM

I suppose, the Wilson's real involvement and his report back then are a tangential part of the Plame outing.  It is allegedly the motive for the outing, but to be honest, in my book, it has nothing to do with the actual issue of the outing.  A covert agent was outed, for whatever reason, benign or malignant, and that is a fact.  All the rest can be argued from a person's POV.  What can't be argued is that her identity was vealed, and that she was covert.

That has to make other agents feel oh so safe.  You know what I mean.

I'll be honest, I'm surprised more people aren't able to draw the same conclusions  on this as I do.  It's not a good thing to have agents outed, regardless of the reason.  It's an outrage in fact.  I'm outraged that Americans can sit around and make up excuses for why it was OK.  I call that Un-American.  It was an act of treason to out her.  I don't give a rats a$$ if the Special Prosecutor found no way to prosecute the offenders.  It's still an act of treason.  

All the side talk about Wilson is interesting as background, and I tend to agree with Specs' POV on this [regardless of how that is viewed by others as "willful squinting".  I view the abstraction of outing Plame as Politics rather than a national security issue as 'selective squinting'.  

But, there comes a point where an argument just falls into the category of rhetoric, because the answer is moot.  An agent was outed.  She was covert.  Like it or not that is the central issue.  Some think it just doesn't matter.  Others of us think it does matter.  Some would like to characterize caring as a "political ploy".  Others of us think it was and is a National security issue.

I wonder which POV makes agents 'feel safer'?  I wonder which POV actually makes the US safer?

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#26 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 05:44 PM

In a wonderful little footnote - Plame along with her publisher is now sueing, yes sueing, the CIA for refusing to OK portions of the manuscript of her upcoming book.  As written it details her undercover work over the years that are still classified and the CIA states it would damage current operations.
Indeed, what an unwavering patriot.

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#27 G1223

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 05:48 PM

Oh but she needs the money for the Undercover Soccer Mom's new operations.

Operation: Punch and Pie. Where they fill the other teams kids with sweets and sugar drinks and then beat them while they are dazed and confused.

To be followed by

Operation:Garden Party where using mircowaves she browns the nightbor's lawn before a big Neighborhood Beautification Commitee meeting.
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#28 Cait

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:51 PM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Jun 1 2007, 03:44 PM, said:

In a wonderful little footnote - Plame along with her publisher is now sueing, yes sueing, the CIA for refusing to OK portions of the manuscript of her upcoming book.  As written it details her undercover work over the years that are still classified and the CIA states it would damage current operations.
Indeed, what an unwavering patriot.

I think you're quite mistaken about what the suit is about, but then I often find your take on news to be mistaken.  As to Plame's unwavering Patriotism, I find her patriotism a hell of a lot more genuine than yours.  

Read this blog, and then read the  the downloaded pdf of the actual complaint.

http://www.dailykos....5/31/212820/520

This suit isn't about anything secret.  She knows, and we all know, that the book gets vetted by the CIA to avoid anything like that.  So, take your grand misrepresentation and the flaming of an American who served for years and stick it someplace useful.  Perhaps FOX News is looking for a news commentator of your caliber.

This suit is about not being able to state what is already in the public domain.  That's how crazy this is, and if you'd read up on it, instead of glancing at a headline and assuming you know what it is about, you'd know that.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#29 RobL

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:00 PM

View PostG1223, on Jun 1 2007, 02:48 PM, said:

Oh but she needs the money for the Undercover Soccer Mom's new operations.

Operation: Punch and Pie. Where they fill the other teams kids with sweets and sugar drinks and then beat them while they are dazed and confused.

To be followed by

Operation:Garden Party where using mircowaves she browns the nightbor's lawn before a big Neighborhood Beautification Commitee meeting.

:welldone:  :thumbs-up:

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#30 tennyson

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:22 PM

Tempers seem to be flaring in this thread right now with it getting personal from what I can see and I'd like to take this time to request that you all back down. Consider this an official Cool It for the thread.
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#31 Lin731

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:37 PM

Quote

Tempers seem to be flaring in this thread right now with it getting personal from what I can see and I'd like to take this time to request that you all back down. Consider this an official Cool It for the thread.

Perhaps it has something to do with disrespectful, sexist slams about "Soccer moms" when referring to a CIA agent? I know that pissed me off, particularly given all the rah rah, patriotic, flag waving for any half digested thought that spews forth from Bush, yet where is all that patriotism when it comes to a longtime CIA agent that was outted? There we get BS "soccer mom" comments that degrade someone that has worked to keep the country secure.
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#32 G1223

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:48 PM

Her statements to congress gave the impression of a woman who was taking her kids to varius events and school. and then turning into Mrs. Smith and racing down the beltway. To the well marked CIA headquarters building. With signs along the Highway saying which exit it is.

I am commenting that her staements made no sense.

She worked in the CIA building. Yet she made it sound like she entered via some secret entrance. What she did was classified. That makes sense but her comments about being trained to throw off a tail had the air of her daily life being almost like the car chases out of the Bourne Idenity.

Her telling anyone who asked about her work a total lie would have been believable.

You can call it sexist. I am saying she did a nice job of making herself the victim of what has the feel of someone spinning a tale to a congress who would buy anything told to them if it was going to make Bush look bad.

If she had said that Dick Chaney had a half eaten infants arm danging from his mouth.. I suspect congress would either buy the whole story or turn to the next page in the script of "How to screw Bush without even telling the truth"
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#33 Cait

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:53 PM

View PostLin731, on Jun 1 2007, 08:37 PM, said:

Quote

Tempers seem to be flaring in this thread right now with it getting personal from what I can see and I'd like to take this time to request that you all back down. Consider this an official Cool It for the thread.

Perhaps it has something to do with disrespectful, sexist slams about "Soccer moms" when referring to a CIA agent? I know that pissed me off, particularly given all the rah rah, patriotic, flag waving for any half digested thought that spews forth from Bush, yet where is all that patriotism when it comes to a longtime CIA agent that was outted? There we get BS "soccer mom" comments that degrade someone that has worked to keep the country secure.

Exactly.  Thank you Lin.  

All the talk that comes from the Right about National security and Patriotism sure seems shallow when applied to a true Patriot who gave her life to securing our safety.  You can give me a warning, but I'm tired of hearing these remarks from people who don't have the good sense to just say "Thank You" to those that have served and were betrayed in the bargain.

I won't speak to anyone in this thread again about it, but some of these comments are just beyond the pale and outright lies in the face of all the evidence we've supplied in this thread.  I suppose we could all go all PC on this topic and let the uninformed just have their free speech--who cares if it has any basis in truth.  

One of the reasons I discuss these things is to find the truth on hot issues.  Yet, some people get to continue to spread outright lies and slander about someone who gave her entire career to the CIA.  Do you know how many reports are out there about her covert status and her position in the CIA?  Do you?  Yet all of that service can be reduced to "Soccer mom" undercover by an ill-informed reactionary who doesn't spend any time reading to find the truth in a mountain of lies.  Lies he helps to spread.

Same with the comments on the lawsuit.  She should have READ THE COMPLAINT before she jumped to those kinds of conclusions and again questioned the Patriotism of Plame.  That's a heavy charge that gets bandied about with no basis in fact around here and in the media in general.  It's cowardly and it is just plain wrong, and as far as I'm concerned shouldn't be tolerated.  Since it has to be tolerated because it's free speech, we ought to at least stand up and call them on their BS when the facts are different.  It that makes it hot in here, then so be it.  Unmasking outright lies and misinformation isn't pretty, but we damn well need to begin doing it.

**OK, I'm done now.. I'm going to watch TV.**

Edited by Cait, 01 June 2007 - 10:56 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#34 scherzo

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:56 PM

Quote

In a wonderful little footnote - Plame along with her publisher is now sueing, yes sueing, the CIA for refusing to OK portions of the manuscript of her upcoming book. As written it details her undercover work over the years that are still classified and the CIA states it would damage current operations. Indeed, what an unwavering patriot.
What an unwavering bore I'd call her. I highly doubt her book will be nearly as interesting as the inevitable reviews on amazon.com. She's bound to cash in either way, but maybe the lawsuit will help extend her 15 minutes of lame.  :rolleyes:  

Quote

Perhaps it has something to do with disrespectful, sexist slams about "Soccer moms" when referring to a CIA agent? I know that pissed me off, particularly given all the rah rah, patriotic, flag waving for any half digested thought that spews forth from Bush
I'd be fascinated to read even a single example of a "rah rah" reaction to a Bush statement on this forum.  

BTW Agent Shagnasty lost a fingertip during Operation:Garden Party. Poor rookie was in over her hedge... :headshake:

-scherzo
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#35 QueenTiye

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:24 AM

Agreeing with tennyson that we can all take a deep breath here.  

I have a question which I'd like a serious answer to, without rhetoric or snark.  Why does Ms. Plame's activities with her child(ren) have any bearing on the discussion at hand? Is there an assumption being made that a CIA agent cannot also be a working mom? I admit freely that I am not following this case at all, mostly because it seems so semantical.  A CIA agent was outed. She should not have been, but she was.  It's a problem that needs correcting.  That seems at least incontrovertible - the finger pointing doesn't interest me much.  However, some comments here seem to suggest that her status as a mom somehow invalidates her status as a covert agent.  Am I reading that correctly, and if so, how does her status as a mom negate her covert status? Does it work that way for men too?

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#36 G1223

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 02:01 AM

Because she tried to give us the image of a woman living the covert lifestyle. While also living the upper middle class life. She made comments about checking behind her to see if she was being tailed. Like her getting off at the well marked Langely Virginia Exit for the CIA  Headquarterswas not a clue she worked for the CIA.

She was not a high risk subject. She was a expert on a area of the globe. Not a Superspy. Despite her attempt to give that illusion a bit of a spin.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#37 Spectacles

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:07 AM

http://www.nytimes.c...agewanted=print

Quote

June 1, 2007
Plame Sues C.I.A. for Blocking Her Memoir
By ADAM LIPTAK

Valerie Wilson, the former intelligence operative at the heart of an investigation that reached into the White House, sued the Central Intelligence Agency in federal court in New York yesterday over its refusal to allow her to publish a memoir that would discuss how long she had worked for the agency.

Although that information is set out in an unclassified letter to Ms. Wilson that has been published in the Congressional Record, the C.I.A. contends that her dates of service remain classified and may not be mentioned in “Fair Game,” the memoir Ms. Wilson hopes to publish in October.

Quote

C.I.A. employees sign agreements requiring them to submit manuscripts to the agency for permission before they are published, and Ms. Wilson’s suit said she spent 10 months working with agency officials on the book to avoid disclosing national security information. But the agency’s refusal to allow her to include material already in the public domain, the suit said, violates her right to free speech.

Here's the Top Secret information, which the CIA now says shouldn't have been entered into the public domain:

Quote

The letter said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since Nov. 9, 1985, for a total of “20 years, 7 days,” including “six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service.”

Edited by Spectacles, 02 June 2007 - 06:08 AM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#38 Lin731

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:35 AM

Quote

Because she tried to give us the image of a woman living the covert lifestyle. While also living the upper middle class life. She made comments about checking behind her to see if she was being tailed. Like her getting off at the well marked Langely Virginia Exit for the CIA Headquarterswas not a clue she worked for the CIA.

Do you understand the meaning of "covert" G? AKA...you maintain a cover and a normal life so the bad guys don't know what you really do. It's not a Tom Clancy novel or a Bond flick. Somehow driving around in the Bondmobile, wearing a black leather Emma Peal outfit wouldn't exactly suit the Jane EveryWoman concept of covert now would it?

Quote

She was not a high risk subject. She was a expert on a area of the globe. Not a Superspy. Despite her attempt to give that illusion a bit of a spin.

And you know this how G? Do you work at CIA HQ? Did you consult your Maxwel Smart Decoder Ring, Magic 8 ball maybe? The CIA apparently differs with your opinion (and that's all you have going on G, an opinion) not supported by the very fact that the CIA instigated the investigation by requesting it to the DOJ themselves,  an opinion, not supported by the CIA's own statements. Maybe they were protecting her top secret Tuna Cassorole recipe though, right? So much for all that flag waving and patriotic rhetoric. Apparently that has a political ideology attached to it for you that I find disgusting.
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#39 DWF

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:47 AM

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Somehow driving around in the Bondmobile, wearing a black leather Emma Peal outfit wouldn't exactly suit the Jane EveryWoman concept of covert now would it?

But I'll bet Mrs Plame would look good in that leather outfit.  :D
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#40 G1223

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:23 AM

IF she was actually undercover covert makes sense. But wouldn't driving straight to the headquarters seem ...well stupid. I mean you think that the whole of the DC is under some sort of mind controlling fog that they cannot remember where the CIA has it's headquarters. And that is just the Americans you think it would not be hard for a forgien government to determine who worked at the building? Espically when they drove striaght there from dropping off the kids.

Her claims of evasive driving are accurate upto the point where she would put it into practise.

I see the Virginia State trooper telling her that wreckless drving is a offense that can get a person arrested. Or just handing out the speeding ticket.

And Lin it is starting to feel personel with the magic 8 ball comments.

I have said that her statements leave a person thinking that she lived the life of a modern Sidney Riley or Jason Bourne. When she worked in the role of a expert on a area of the world. She supplied names of contacts for other persons to use. She did go over seas and that is where her going undercover came into play but it was usually if I remember correctly as a member of the embassy staff.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



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