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Plame was ‘covert’ agent at time of name leak

Valerie Plame CIA Leak Case 2007

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#41 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:13 PM

View PostG1223, on Jun 2 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

And Lin it is starting to feel personel with the magic 8 ball comments.

G, sometimes you just reap what you sow.  I love ya, but you need to begin reading some of the resources we post, so you can answer your own questions.

Quote

She did go over seas and that is where her going undercover came into play but it was usually if I remember correctly as a member of the embassy staff.

Specs said:

Not only was she undercover, she was in Counter Proliferation, specifically "chief of a CPD component with responsibility for weapons proliferation issues related to Iraq." She was assigned this role on January 1, 2002. During the course of performing her duties, she "traveled at least seven seven times to more than ten countries" and did so undercover.

Specs posted the answer up thread.  READ G.  Read!!!!  That, and there is another thread around here that has the precise language of the Identity Protection Act.  She was covert.  I can't believe there would be this much debate over a simple thing like this.  She was covert.

Instead of accepting she that she was covert, you and others make light of her service and pretend that her outing wasn't a serious matter.  I suppose you need to do that in order to maintain the delusion that our government didn't just throw her to the wolves, but the truth remains--SHE WAS COVERT.  What her covert-ness entailed is TOP SECRET, because [here it comes] she was covert.

If a soldier was given this kind of treatment from the government after having served in Iraq, I'm sure you would be able to see just how callous you sound.  You [and others] make it all political.  Make her sound like some secretary at Langley who never amounted to much at all in the CIA.  Which is simply not the case.  

While it is easy to take political swipes at her [it's all the rage now-a-days anyway], you all only come off as un-American and petty.

[side note]  She must have been really good at what she did, because even after she was outed and the CIA confirmed her covert status, people still don't believe she was covert.  It's a shame to lose that kind of agent]

Edited by Cait, 02 June 2007 - 12:23 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#42 Spectacles

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:46 PM

http://www.tpmcafe.c...7/13/04720/9340

Quote


The Big Lie About Valerie Plame


By Larry Johnson | bio
The misinformation being spread in the media about the Plame affair is alarming and damaging to the longterm security interests of the United States.  Republicans' talking points are trying to savage Joe Wilson and, by implication, his wife, Valerie Plame as liars.  That is the truly big lie.

For starters, Valerie Plame was an undercover operations officer until outed in the press by Robert Novak.  Novak's column was not an isolated attack.  It was in fact part of a coordinated, orchestrated smear that we now know includes at least Karl Rove.

Valerie Plame was a classmate of mine from the day she started with the CIA.  I entered on duty at the CIA in September 1985.  All of my classmates were undercover--in other words, we told our family and friends that we were working for other overt U.S. Government agencies.  We had official cover.  That means we had a black passport--i.e., a diplomatic passport.  If we were caught overseas engaged in espionage activity the black passport was a get out of jail free card.

A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became a non-official cover officer.  That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport.  If caught in that status she would have been executed.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#43 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:14 PM

from the same article Specs linked to...

Quote

The lies by people like Victoria Toensing, Representative Peter King, and P. J. O'Rourke insist that Valerie was nothing, just a desk jockey.  Yet, until Robert Novak betrayed her she was still undercover and the company that was her front was still a secret to the world.  When Novak outed Valerie he also compromised her company and every individual overseas who had been in contact with that company and with her.  

The Republicans now want to hide behind the legalism that "no laws were broken".  I don't know if a man made law was broken but an ethical and moral code was breached.  For the first time a group of partisan political operatives publically identified a CIA NOC.  They have set a precedent that the next group of political hacks may feel free to violate.


Those are the real issues.. the networks that were put in danger and the precedent that is being set.

We're talking about the "rule of law" here and some of you think it's a political rally.

Edited by Cait, 02 June 2007 - 01:14 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#44 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:29 PM

And here is a blurb about her lawsuit.. the CIA is refusing to allow her to print what is already in the public domain.  If it were still a secret, the CIA would be right, but due to their own misstep, they revealed the information themselves.

Yahoo News

Quote

Plame contends in court documents that the CIA released information about her work history in an unclassified letter about her retirement benefits. The letter, which the CIA says was sent inadvertently, was ultimately entered into the Congressional Record and says that Plame worked at the CIA for more than 20 years.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#45 Godeskian

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:31 PM

Right hand, meet left hand.

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#46 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:52 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Jun 2 2007, 11:31 AM, said:

Right hand, meet left hand.

LOL< I know.  I cracked up when I read it myself.  Then they try and close the barn door after they horse is already out and across the county.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#47 Dev F

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:48 PM

View PostG1223, on Jun 2 2007, 11:23 AM, said:

IF she was actually undercover covert makes sense. But wouldn't driving straight to the headquarters seem ...well stupid. I mean you think that the whole of the DC is under some sort of mind controlling fog that they cannot remember where the CIA has it's headquarters. And that is just the Americans you think it would not be hard for a forgien government to determine who worked at the building? Espically when they drove striaght there from dropping off the kids.
So you're saying this behavior is incompatible with the actions of all the other covert CIA agents you know? Or are you basing your assumptions on the things you learned about spying from James Bond and The Bourne Identity?

Maybe you're right, and covert agents don't work out of Langley -- or are required to follow evasive protocols when they do -- but until you can present genuine evidence to that effect, and genuine evidence that Plame's actions defied those protocols, you're just speculationing groundlessly. And, no, "It would be stupid to expose covert agents to discovery like that" isn't an adequate explanation, because it's also possible that the CIA's protocols are just stupid (or merely seem stupid to those who don't know all the ins and outs of the system), and Plame can hardly be held responsible for that.

Edited by Dev F, 02 June 2007 - 03:49 PM.


#48 RobL

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:55 PM

View PostDev F, on Jun 2 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Jun 2 2007, 11:23 AM, said:

IF she was actually undercover covert makes sense. But wouldn't driving straight to the headquarters seem ...well stupid. I mean you think that the whole of the DC is under some sort of mind controlling fog that they cannot remember where the CIA has it's headquarters. And that is just the Americans you think it would not be hard for a forgien government to determine who worked at the building? Espically when they drove striaght there from dropping off the kids.
So you're saying this behavior is incompatible with the actions of all the other covert CIA agents you know? Or are you basing your assumptions on the things you learned about spying from James Bond and The Bourne Identity?

Maybe you're right, and covert agents don't work out of Langley -- or are required to follow evasive protocols when they do -- but until you can present genuine evidence to that effect, and genuine evidence that Plame's actions defied those protocols, you're just speculationing groundlessly. And, no, "It would be stupid to expose covert agents to discovery like that" isn't an adequate explanation, because it's also possible that the CIA's protocols are just stupid (or merely seem stupid to those who don't know all the ins and outs of the system), and Plame can hardly be held responsible for that.

Well, common sense would say that if you are covert, then you would have a handler to give you orders. I mean, the CIA building is kind of obvious, and to think that people aren't watching it, seeing who goes in and out, is kind of preposterous.

But, whatever. Just goes to my theory that the government fu*ks up everything it touches.  :vulcan:

(oh, and that if his wife really was a covert agent, then maybe her husband shouldn't have shot his mouth off, which I know Cait and the other "Bush must be impeachedites" will just love to hear)

Edited by RobL, 02 June 2007 - 03:56 PM.

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#49 Lin731

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:09 PM

Quote

(oh, and that if his wife really was a covert agent, then maybe her husband shouldn't have shot his mouth off, which I know Cait and the other "Bush must be impeachedites" will just love to hear)

Yeah cause when you shoot your mouth off (aka...tell the truth behind the administrations lies and manipulations) you leave your wife open to having her cover blown in a selfish, traitorous bid by the administration (or parts of the administration) to discredit you. Perhaps Mr. Wilson's real crime was expecting this gaggle of lying, corrupt, self-serving yahoo's to abide by any laws at all. Afterall, they've proven time and time again they have no use for law, the constitution, the truth or the American people.
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#50 Rhea

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:17 PM

^It must be the ultimate irony that these pious constipated conservative Republicans have turned out to be the biggest bunch of corrupt crooks we've had in the White House and Congress in many a moon. :sarcasm:

Edited by Rhea, 02 June 2007 - 04:17 PM.

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#51 RobL

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:22 PM

View PostLin731, on Jun 2 2007, 01:09 PM, said:

Quote

(oh, and that if his wife really was a covert agent, then maybe her husband shouldn't have shot his mouth off, which I know Cait and the other "Bush must be impeachedites" will just love to hear)

Yeah cause when you shoot your mouth off (aka...tell the truth behind the administrations lies and manipulations) you leave your wife open to having her cover blown in a selfish, traitorous bid by the administration (or parts of the administration) to discredit you. Perhaps Mr. Wilson's real crime was expecting this gaggle of lying, corrupt, self-serving yahoo's to abide by any laws at all. Afterall, they've proven time and time again they have no use for law, the constitution, the truth or the American people.

See? I told you they'd love it, LOL.

I disagree with my employer a lot. I think that the organization (for lack of a better term) is seriously fuc*ked up, with psudo-politicans running the joint, and not doing a very good job of it. Now, I could run my mouth off, run op-ed pieces in the newspaper, or whatever, but really, what would I expect the to do to me? Pat me on the head and give me a cookie? Not likely.

Now, at some point, if I really get to the point where I don't value my job anymore, I MIGHT speak out about what I see as wrong. But until then, I have the good sense to keep my mouth shut, my head down, and keep a low(er) profile that I would regularly. Hence, I keep my job.

You can't expect to be a wanna-be-whistle-blower without collateral damage, one way or another.

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#52 G1223

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:34 PM

Espically when you can line up a sweet book deal for both you and the wife.
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#53 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:57 PM

View PostRobL, on Jun 2 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

(oh, and that if his wife really was a covert agent, then maybe her husband shouldn't have shot his mouth off, which I know Cait and the other "Bush must be impeachedites" will just love to hear)

That's like blaming a woman for wearing a short skirt when she gets raped.  Another bait and switch from the real topic.  So, Joe Wilson is now responsible for what others did?  That's absurd on its face.  Those that outed her are responsible.  Those that bandied around her name [when they had top security clearances] were reckless and irresponsible with a national security asset.  Something that seems to always get lost in this discussion [when it comes to Plame]

Let me repeat it for the bleachers.

Plame was covert.
Plame was outed.

All these other points are interesting and provocative, but the only things that matter are the above two statements.  Even if 'we' don't see her value, that's probably OK because then no one else did either.  That made her a good operative.

And I'll repeat, the only reason her status is minimized by some is to make it OK for her outing.  She wasn't important at the CIA so it was OK to out her.  Well, news flash, it wasn't OK.  I don't care if she was at a million state dinners, and she was a DC insider.  She was still covert.  Some of you defend her non-covert status because you can't and won't accept what that means in terms of the WH and the law.  Well, that's on you and your conscience.

You guys watch too much TV and movies.  

Read the definition of covert in the Law.

Quote

(4) The term “covert agent” means—

(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—
(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and
(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

and here is the link to the another post [and thread] where all this was hashed out previously.

http://www.exisle.ne...&...st&p=971690

If you guys don't like the law the way it reads, call your congressman.  Congress writes the law.  It's hardly Plame's fault that you don't like the way the law is written or the CIA does business.  She wasn't lying about her status, and that is the point.  A point some can't seem to just accept.

Another one is this, her career was ruined.  She was outed and her life work was "poof" gone.  Her service to the CIA and 'us', was destroyed in one, at best, careless moment, and at worst, a callous disregard for the law.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#54 RobL

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:17 PM

Quote

Another one is this, her career was ruined. She was outed and her life work was "poof" gone.

Welcome to the life of the public servant.

What, you don't think that those in charge take the hit? Even on the local level, sh*t rolls downhill, and the middle-and-lower management takes the biggest hit when fingers get pointed and the head bippie goes "who, me?"

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#55 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:22 PM

View PostRobL, on Jun 2 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Quote

Another one is this, her career was ruined. She was outed and her life work was "poof" gone.

Welcome to the life of the public servant.

What, you don't think that those in charge take the hit? Even on the local level, sh*t rolls downhill, and the middle-and-lower management takes the biggest hit when fingers get pointed and the head bippie goes "who, me?"

Except that in this case it was against the law to out her.  She was covert.  I still don't think some understand how that one fact changes the landscape.  It's exactly why some fight tooth and nail to deny she was covert.  If she was covert [which she was] then it was a crime to reveal her status.

As to the rest.. of course sh*t rolls downhill, and lots of people have their lives ruined.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#56 RobL

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:26 PM

View PostCait, on Jun 2 2007, 02:22 PM, said:

View PostRobL, on Jun 2 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Quote

Another one is this, her career was ruined. She was outed and her life work was "poof" gone.

Welcome to the life of the public servant.

What, you don't think that those in charge take the hit? Even on the local level, sh*t rolls downhill, and the middle-and-lower management takes the biggest hit when fingers get pointed and the head bippie goes "who, me?"

Except that in this case it was against the law to out her.  She was covert.  I still don't think some understand how that one fact changes the landscape.  It's exactly why some fight tooth and nail to deny she was covert.  If she was covert [which she was] then it was a crime to reveal her status.

As to the rest.. of course sh*t rolls downhill, and lots of people have their lives ruined.

And someone went to jail, right? Maybe not the "right" someone, in your eyes, but hey, you can't get everything.

I like beating a dead horse just as much as the next troll, but really, old news, too bad, so sad, wasn't that important anyway, or else her husband would have kept his mouth shut.

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#57 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:38 PM

View PostRobL, on Jun 2 2007, 03:26 PM, said:

[
And someone went to jail, right? Maybe not the "right" someone, in your eyes, but hey, you can't get everything.

I like beating a dead horse just as much as the next troll, but really, old news, too bad, so sad, wasn't that important anyway, or else her husband would have kept his mouth shut.


LOL, well I know you do like to beat a dead horse, and it is fun to hang out with you, but this horse rose from the dead when the 'covert status' was questioned yet again, and then the  ridiculous claim that Plame was suing the CIA because she wanted to reveal secret information.  I was setting the record straight.  

BTW, I never thought anyone would be convicted, and in truth no one has. Libby was convicted of Perjury and Obstruction.  I doubt he will see day in jail, and I won't be the one outraged about it.  It's expected.  Still, the truth is Plame was covert.  

Another truth is that she is suing to be able to write about what is already in the public domain.  To state otherwise, is just absurd and ill-informed.  

The rest of the case is what it is, and there's nothing I can do about any of that.  All I can do is try to set the facts of the case straight when outright falsehoods are presented.  It just makes for a better discussion all around. :)

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#58 RobL

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:54 PM

^ Yeah, and the mobsters of the 20s were convicted not for murder and all that other nastyness that the did, but for tax evasion. You get them however you can, sometimes.

Libby will probably have to face SOME time. Even if Bush pardons him, its going to have to be in two years (no way he'll do it before the last minute pardons that usually happen). That's a long time to wait, from verdict to sentencing.

Bring back Darthsikle!


#59 Cait

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:31 PM

View PostRobL, on Jun 2 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

^ Yeah, and the mobsters of the 20s were convicted not for murder and all that other nastyness that the did, but for tax evasion. You get them however you can, sometimes.

Libby will probably have to face SOME time. Even if Bush pardons him, its going to have to be in two years (no way he'll do it before the last minute pardons that usually happen). That's a long time to wait, from verdict to sentencing.

All very true,, :)

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#60 Lin731

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:36 PM

Quote

I disagree with my employer a lot. I think that the organization (for lack of a better term) is seriously fuc*ked up, with psudo-politicans running the joint, and not doing a very good job of it. Now, I could run my mouth off, run op-ed pieces in the newspaper, or whatever, but really, what would I expect the to do to me? Pat me on the head and give me a cookie? Not likely.

That analogy might be valid if Plame was the one writing Op Eds about the Niger claims but she wasn't. It might be Valid if Joe Wilson was a member of the Bush administration but again, he wasn't.

Quote

Now, at some point, if I really get to the point where I don't value my job anymore, I MIGHT speak out about what I see as wrong. But until then, I have the good sense to keep my mouth shut, my head down, and keep a low(er) profile that I would regularly. Hence, I keep my job.

You can't expect to be a wanna-be-whistle-blower without collateral damage, one way or another.

Again Rob, this analogy is faulty. We aren't talking about petty bitching and moaning about the "boss".  We aren't talking about a corprate kickback scandal etc...We're talking about claims made by the administration that were used to help justify a war that has killed or maimed thousands of US troops and Iraqi civilians. It's cost us billions upon billions that we don't have, spurred a rise in terrorist recruiting and could lead to a power shift in the region. Wilson did the right thing in stepping up, he probably had more balls than anyone else at that time. He told the truth as he saw it and the administration made his wife pay for it. I hope there's a special place in Hell for everyone that knowingly and deliberately outed her. Everyone of them are a disgrace to this country.
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