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They Found Nefertiti!

Science Archaeology Nefertiti Tomb

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#21 Christopher

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 10:05 PM

mystic, on Jun 10 2003, 11:10 AM, said:

...Aahhotep I, Queen Aethelburgh, Artemisia, and Khutulun just to name a few. ;)
For those of us coming in late... who, who, who and who?
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#22 eryn

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 03:29 PM

Christopher, on Jun 15 2003, 05:06 AM, said:

mystic, on Jun 10 2003, 11:10 AM, said:

...Aahhotep I, Queen Aethelburgh, Artemisia, and Khutulun just to name a few. ;)
For those of us coming in late... who, who, who and who?
Aahhotep I (or Ahhotep or Ahotep): New Kingdom Queen, around during the period after the Hyskos rulers were expelled from Lower Egypt. She apparently played an important part in the wars of liberation, evidence of this is the stele that Ahmose I (her son) erected in the temple of Amun-Ra at Karnak which praised his mother’s heroism. It is suggested that she had to look after Egypt’s troops until her son Ahmose I came of age and took control, until that time, it is assumed she ruled as a regent. It has also been suggested that Ahhotep may have looked after the internal rule of Upper Egypt while her son was away in military campaigns.

Queen Aethelburgh: According to The Anglo Saxon Chronicles, her forces destroyed the City of Taunton.

Artemisia (note: there was another Artemisia of Halicarnassus who was around a century later): 5th Century BCE and named for the goddess Artemis.  She married the king of Halicarnassus (Modern day Turkey) in 500 BC, just prior to the Ionian Revolt that helped trigger the war between Greece and Persia. Her husband, whose name is unknown, most likely died a few years later. She became Queen and allied her nation with Persia, not Greece, at that time the Persian Empire was ruled by Xerxes. When Xerxes went to war against Greece, Artemisia supplied him with naval ships and assisted Xerxes in defeating the Greeks in the battle of Salamis. Xerxes eventually abandoned the invasion of Greece, and according to Herodotus Artemisia was a principle character in convincing him to withdraw. According to Herodotus, after the war, Artemisia jumped off of a cliff and killed herself because she fell in love with a man who did not return her love.

Khutulun: Kublai Khan’s niece, and a Mongolian woman under Chenggis’s rule, and as such trained to keep the nation ready for battle, as were all women in this time and place. Khutulun amassed a large fortune by wrestling potential grooms. Each prospective suitor had to wrestle her, if he won, she would marry him, if he lost, he had to give up a hundred horses. She soon gained over 10,000 horses, and never actually married. While this story may be exaggerated, it makes a point, Mongolian women were not restricted to roles, and were generally free to do as they will just as men were.

Hope that helps. :)

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#23 Christopher

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 11:50 PM

^^^Interesting... but I think it's kind of a shame that the only women who tend to be considered historically "important" are those who adopt conventionally masculine roles like that of a warrior.  The roles of nurturer, teacher and preserver of familial/societal values are just as important too.  And of course it was probably women who invented agriculture, it was definitely women who invented and practiced the cultivation of silk, and women in many cultures controlled family finances, made the marital decisions which often had great influence on public/political history, and had great informal influence over powerful men as their mothers, wives and mistresses.  It's just that history tends to be written from the perspective of the public, conventionally masculine sphere, and thus doesn't record much about the private, family sphere which is traditionally the feminine domain.  For information about that, we have to rely more on oral tradition and anthropological evidence, or to read between the lines of the histories written with male priorities in mind.
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#24 QueenTiye

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 12:22 AM

Christopher, on Jun 16 2003, 08:51 AM, said:

^^^Interesting... but I think it's kind of a shame that the only women who tend to be considered historically "important" are those who adopt conventionally masculine roles like that of a warrior.  The roles of nurturer, teacher and preserver of familial/societal values are just as important too.
Christopher, take a bow.  ABSOLUTELY!!  And, btw, this has always been my fascination with a certain fictitious human species offshoot... ;)


Quote

And of course it was probably women who invented agriculture, it was definitely women who invented and practiced the cultivation of silk, and women in many cultures controlled family finances, made the marital decisions which often had great influence on public/political history, and had great informal influence over powerful men as their mothers, wives and mistresses.  It's just that history tends to be written from the perspective of the public, conventionally masculine sphere, and thus doesn't record much about the private, family sphere which is traditionally the feminine domain.  For information about that, we have to rely more on oral tradition and anthropological evidence, or to read between the lines of the histories written with male priorities in mind.

Having said all of that, do you have any recommendations for books that have taken precisely this approach?  It is extremely frustrating to go looking for the female half of society in history books...

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#25 ElJay

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:45 AM

A great deal of the problem probably stems from the fact that during the medieval period, very few women were educated.  Most education was done within the sphere of the church, at least in Europe, so was almost entirely a male-dominated field, usually monastic clerks--the poor fellows didn't *know* much about the femine side of life, did they?  And to be fair, we don't have heaps of references to the kinder, gentler men of those eras, either.  You very rarely hear of kings renowned for meekness, for instance.  Stirring tales of battle and heroics make better listening around the fireside at night than do simpler, common tales of peace and prosperity, so those were most likely the ones to be recorded.
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#26 Ogami

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 04:19 AM

Christopher wrote:

What do you mean, "coincidence?" Relative to what other event? People have been unearthing Egyptian tombs for generations -- they have to make a big find sometime or other, so why not now?

I meant what I said, and I really don't see any call for your defensiveness, Christopher.

When one of the early 20th century archeologists opened a Mycenean tomb, he discovered a gold funeral mask. He breathlessly announced to the world, "I have gazed upon the face of Agamemnon".

It wasn't Agamemnon's tomb, just someone of minor nobility. Still, the desire is there to find famous people of antiquity, and this desire is known and exploited by those who traffic in such artifacts. It's an old game.

There will be very rigorous standards to which this discovery of Nefertiti will be applied, so yes I am skeptical at the initial announcement.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 17 June 2003 - 04:22 AM.


#27 Bossy

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 04:38 AM

^ You do realise, don't you that this mummy was found over 100 yrs ago?

#28 QueenTiye

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 04:39 AM

Ogami, on Jun 16 2003, 01:20 PM, said:

It wasn't Agamemnon's tomb, just someone of minor nobility. Still, the desire is there to find famous people of antiquity, and this desire is known and exploited by those who traffic in such artifacts. It's an old game.

There will be very rigorous standards to which this discovery of Nefertiti will be applied, so yes I am skeptical at the initial announcement.

-Ogami
Right.   I agree.  But that doesn't make the hopeful expectation any less fun! :)

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#29 Christopher

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 04:54 AM

Ogami, on Jun 16 2003, 01:20 PM, said:

I meant what I said, and I really don't see any call for your defensiveness, Christopher.
Defensiveness?  I was just puzzled.  I didn't understand what you meant by your use of the word "coincidence."  The word literally means "happening together."  So what other thing are you saying happened around the same time as this discovery, or around the same area or in the same field or whatever the parallel is, to make it coincidental?  I'm not defending anything, I just don't see why you applied that particular word to it.
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#30 Ogami

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 05:26 AM

They open a tomb and it's Nefertiti. I can count the number of famous Egyptians of her stature on one hand. Seems like pretty good odds, pretty good coincidence for that to happen. Odds are, it's not Nefertiti. Maybe her cook for all we know.

-Ogami

#31 tennyson

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 10:58 AM

If you read the various articles you will find that this mummy was discovered over a century ago and has only now been identified. It was in storage like the huge number of Sumerian cunniform tablets and other various pieces that scientists haven't been able to pour over and someone finally got around to identifing it. They didn't just pull her from the ground.

Edited by tennyson, 17 June 2003 - 11:03 AM.

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#32 Rhea

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 12:11 PM

Ogami, on Jun 16 2003, 10:20 AM, said:

Christopher wrote:

What do you mean, "coincidence?" Relative to what other event? People have been unearthing Egyptian tombs for generations -- they have to make a big find sometime or other, so why not now?

I meant what I said, and I really don't see any call for your defensiveness, Christopher.

When one of the early 20th century archeologists opened a Mycenean tomb, he discovered a gold funeral mask. He breathlessly announced to the world, "I have gazed upon the face of Agamemnon".

It wasn't Agamemnon's tomb, just someone of minor nobility. Still, the desire is there to find famous people of antiquity, and this desire is known and exploited by those who traffic in such artifacts. It's an old game.

There will be very rigorous standards to which this discovery of Nefertiti will be applied, so yes I am skeptical at the initial announcement.

-Ogami
There are truly only a couple of Egyptian royal ladies who would have the combination of headdress, scepter (only two) and ear piercings (again, only a couple).  I'd be highly surprised to find it was anyone BUT Nefertiti. But we'll see.  ;)
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#33 Rhea

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 12:12 PM

Bossy, on Jun 14 2003, 08:42 PM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 14 2003, 10:16 PM, said:

mystic, on Jun 15 2003, 02:51 AM, said:

The Boudiccan forces burned and destoyed the three major towns of Londinium (modern day London), Verulamium (St. Albans), and Camulodunum (Colchester).
That must have really peeved the Romans… :eek2: Not exactly the crowd that you would want annoyed with you either.
Yeah, well considering what it says they did to the people who lived in those towns, I wouldn't blame the Romans for being more than a little upset. :barf:

I am constantly astounded by just how barbaric and cruel humans can be to one another. :(
Hey, let's not get too carried away. The ROMANS invaded HER country. Know what I mean?
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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#34 Christopher

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 12:59 PM

Ogami, on Jun 16 2003, 02:27 PM, said:

They open a tomb and it's Nefertiti. I can count the number of famous Egyptians of her stature on one hand. Seems like pretty good odds, pretty good coincidence for that to happen.
Well, they've opened hundreds of tombs, so the occasional one has got to turn up something good.  It's basic probability -- given enough chances, even the improbable becomes inevitable.

And as tennyson explained, it took them a century to identify the mummy after unearthing it, so it's not like they're jumping to a kneejerk conclusion.

The ironic thing is, there are just so many things archaeologists and paleontologists have dug up over the decades that there's just not time to analyze them all, and a huge backlog has built up.  Most "new" discoveries in these fields are based on fossils/artifacts/whatever that have been lying around in museum drawers and attics for decades, even generations.  There are undoubtedly many important things we've already found but just don't know we've found yet.
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#35 Ogami

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:02 PM

If I dug up every coffin in Valley Forge, and found someone with wooden teeth, I wouldn't conclude I've unearthed George Washington.

-Ogami

#36 Rhea

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:03 PM

Ogami, on Jun 16 2003, 07:03 PM, said:

If I dug up every coffin in Valley Forge, and found someone with wooden teeth, I wouldn't conclude I've unearthed George Washington.

-Ogami
Darlin', there were only a few women in Egyptian history entitled to be buried with a scepter.


Quote

Using cutting-edge Canon digital X-ray machinery, the team spotted jewelry within a smashed-in chest cavity of the mummy. They also noticed a woman's ripped-off arm beneath the remaining wrappings. The arm was bent up pharaonic style with its fingers still clutching a long-vanished royal scepter.

DNA testing could answer all questions, but the Egyptians are notoriously reluctant to allow ANY testing done.

Edited by Rhea, 17 June 2003 - 01:08 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#37 Bossy

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:15 PM

Rhea, on Jun 16 2003, 08:13 PM, said:

Bossy, on Jun 14 2003, 08:42 PM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 14 2003, 10:16 PM, said:

mystic, on Jun 15 2003, 02:51 AM, said:

The Boudiccan forces burned and destoyed the three major towns of Londinium (modern day London), Verulamium (St. Albans), and Camulodunum (Colchester).
That must have really peeved the Romans… :eek2: Not exactly the crowd that you would want annoyed with you either.
Yeah, well considering what it says they did to the people who lived in those towns, I wouldn't blame the Romans for being more than a little upset. :barf:

I am constantly astounded by just how barbaric and cruel humans can be to one another. :(
Hey, let's not get too carried away. The ROMANS invaded HER country. Know what I mean?
Yes, but that still doesn't make the atrocities the supposedly visited upon the Roman women and children any less disgusting.

Don't mistake me, I am not defending the Romans. Just saying that I could see why the Romans would be mad. Personally, I think both sides did some pretty horrible things.


#38 Rhea

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:26 PM

Here's a reprint of Tacitus' description of Boudicca and her doings (bearing in mind it's about like the Bathists describing the American attack on Iran :p):

http://www.athenapub.com/tacitus1.htm

The Romans ravaged the Druid Isle of Mona, by their own admission - razed their holy grounds and smeared their altar with the blood of the natives.

As for Boudicca, her daughters were raped, her money taken away, her lands forfeit and the relatives of Boudicca's dead husband were made slaves.

And this is his own countryman's account of Varenius and his ego problem:

Quote

Aulus Didius, as has been mentioned, aimed at no extension of territory, content with maintaining the conquests already made. Veranius, who succeeded him, did little more: he made a few incursions into the country of the Silures, and was hindered by death from prosecuting the war with vigour. He had been respected, during his life, for the severity of his manners; in his end, the mark fell off, and his last will discovered the low ambition of a servile flatterer, who, in those moments, could offer incense to Nero, and add, with vain ostentation, that if he lived two years, it was his design to make the whole island obedient to the authority of the prince.
   :eek:

Of course, Tacitus refers to the Icenians as "Barbarians."

Edited by Rhea, 17 June 2003 - 01:27 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#39 eryn

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:07 PM

Rhea, on Jun 16 2003, 08:27 PM, said:

Here's a reprint of Tacitus' description of Boudicca and her doings (bearing in mind it's about like the Bathists describing the American attack on Iran :p):

http://www.athenapub.com/tacitus1.htm
I actually pointed to that site in my post a little while back. ;)

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#40 Christopher

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 11:44 AM

Rhea, on Jun 16 2003, 10:27 PM, said:

Here's a reprint of Tacitus' description of Boudicca and her doings (bearing in mind it's about like the Bathists describing the American attack on Iran :p):
Actually what I found impressive about Tacitus when I read his Agricola  is that he did give the other side a voice, dramatizing speeches in which they expressed their grievances against the Romans.  He wasn't just a propagandist for Rome.  Indeed, he somewhat glorified the ways of the "barbarians" as a critique of the decadence of Rome.  I wrote a short paper about it once:

http://home.fuse.net...ett/TACITUS.htm
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