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Libby Must Go to Jail During Appeal

Plame Case Scooter Libby 2007

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#21 Caretaker

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 06:01 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 2 2007, 04:45 PM, said:

Well, no, it doesn't rule it out. But Bush sure will look like a big ole liar if he pardons Libby after saying that. Whether that stops him or not, I don't know.

Well, at least Bushie doesn't come off looking totally bad.  He is a liar, but considering what a fall Libby took for the administration, Bush owes him at least this.

addendum: In my original version of the post, I called Bush a name I shouldn't have, and for that, I apologize.

Edited by Caretaker, 02 July 2007 - 10:42 PM.

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#22 Rhea

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:32 PM

It's a done deal. Bush commuted his sentence tonight:

http://news.yahoo.co...yZOxePERQ2s0NUE

The President is admitting that it's not only ok to out covert operatives, but it's also ok to commit perjury. I don't have an appropriate smiley for this one.

Well, it should be interesting too see what they say to the House Judiciary Committee now that they no longer have the excuse of a pending criminal investigation.

Edited by Rhea, 02 July 2007 - 08:40 PM.

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#23 Cait

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:59 PM

Fitzgerald's Statement via Firedoglake

Patrick Fitzgerald said:

We fully recognize that the Constitution provides that commutation decisions are a matter of presidential prerogative and we do not comment on the exercise of that prerogative.

We comment only on the statement in which the President termed the sentence imposed by the judge as “excessive.” The sentence in this case was imposed pursuant to the laws governing sentencings which occur every day throughout this country.

In this case, an experienced federal judge considered extensive argument from the parties and then imposed a sentence consistent with the applicable laws. It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals. That principle guided the judge during both the trial and the sentencing.

Although the President’s decision eliminates Mr. Libby’s sentence of imprisonment, Mr. Libby remains convicted by a jury of serious felonies, and we will continue to seek to preserve those convictions through the appeals process.

Which is interesting in light of a recent Roberts' Court decision.  [sorry I just have to laugh when the hypocrisy is on the other foot]

Washington Post

Quote

Friday, June 22, 2007; Page A02

The Supreme Court ruled yesterday that criminal sentences within guidelines set by a federal commission are generally entitled to be upheld on appeal, a decision that limits legal options for defendants who feel that they have been punished too harshly.

By a vote of 8 to 1, the court held that, even though it recently ruled that the sentencing ranges set by the U.S. Sentencing Commission are no longer mandatory, judges who follow them may be presumed to have acted reasonably.

Quote

The case that the court decided yesterday, Rita v. United States, No. 06-5754, was meant to help define "advisory."

Victor Rita, convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, asked for a lighter sentence based in part on his past military service. But the judge gave him 33 months, as suggested by the guidelines. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, based in Richmond, upheld the sentence, saying that penalties within the guidelines are "presumptively reasonable."

This pattern has been repeated around the country since the Supreme Court's 2005 ruling.

Sorry I can't help but snicker at how convenient leniency is for your pals, and how sane sentencing guidelines seem to be for all the rest of us.  Just makes the whole "Equal before the law" think kind of a joke.  But then, as a person of moderate means, the fact that there is one kind of justice for the powerful and another for the rest of us, isn't exactly shocking news.  [And no it does not matter what political party is in power. Still, it's never a good idea to rub the noses of the masses in something like this in a Presidential election cycle.  You know what I mean?

If I were more of a conspiracy kind of person, I'd swear Libby threatened to give up what Fitz wanted all along if he had to jail [Rove, Cheney, et. al.].  While Bush always had the commutation/pardon in his pocket, Libby always had the truth in his.  

That's *if* I were a conspiracy theorist.  Which I'm not!  :p

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#24 Nonny

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 09:19 PM

Wilson's been heard from, said something like this makes Bush an accessory.

Edited to add NPR audio link

Yep, accessory to obstruction of justice.

Edited by Nonny, 02 July 2007 - 09:23 PM.

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#25 RobL

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 10:07 PM

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

If you don't like the way Pardons/Commutations(sp?) are done, then lobby congress to take that power away from the president. Otherwise, too bad, so sad, should have done something about it before when Clinton did it.

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#26 G1223

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 10:15 PM

LOL Robl nice pointing out the facts. BTW I think three of those pardons were for three Terrorists who release helped get Hilary votes.

But that would be a good pardon not this evil thing.

But we also had the pardon of a man who stole cheated on his taxes and gave a LARGE donation to Hilary's Brother. Not at all going to wind up in the hands of Bill and Co.

Clinton also waived the stardard provision barring former officers of the executive branch from entering private concerns. Such as former Sec. of the Tres, Pual Rubin from going to work with City Bank. (The Bank which merged with Traveller's Insurance,one of the world's largest insurance firms, during Rubin's term as Sec. Tres.)

Yay got to admit those were good Pardons. (For the guys in office)

Edited by G1223, 02 July 2007 - 11:58 PM.

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#27 Rhea

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:51 AM

View PostRobL, on Jul 2 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

If you don't like the way Pardons/Commutations(sp?) are done, then lobby congress to take that power away from the president. Otherwise, too bad, so sad, should have done something about it before when Clinton did it.

Don't anybody faint , but I agree with Rob. President should not have the power to pardon criminals on nothing but a whim. It's basically a way of repaying political favors by freeing convicted criminals to whom the President owes favors. And presidential buddies should have to serve their time the same as anybody.

I never agreed with Ford pardoning Nixon, and I think that pardon was the beginning of the slippery road - the notion that Presidents, BECAUSE THEY'RE PRESIDENTS, should not have to be tried for crimes they may have committed - that the President is above the law. God knows "The Decider" certrainly thinks himself to be above the law and the system of checks and balances that have served this country for centuries.

Far as I'm concerned, that's one perk the President should absolutely not have. Nope.
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#28 Rhea

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:51 AM

Oops. Double post. :o

Edited by Rhea, 03 July 2007 - 12:53 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#29 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:40 AM

Federal Guidelines for a Presidential Pardon

[All emphasis added is mine]

What is amazing to me is how everything gets lumped into the "Well everyone else did it" as if all things are equal.  They simply aren't, especially in this instance.

For the record, all Presidents have given Pardons.  It is a Constitutional Power of the President.  

Quote

While Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution places no limitations on the president's power to grant or deny pardons, the Justice Department's U.S. Pardon Attorney prepares a recommendation for the president on each application for presidential "clemency," including pardons, commutations of sentences, remissions of fines, and reprieves.  

The Pardon Attorney is required to review each application according to the following guidelines: (The president is not obliged to follow, or even consider the recommendations of the Pardon Attorney. See: Sec. 1.10)

FTR, pardons and commutations are different.

Quote

Sec. 1.2 Eligibility for filing petition for pardon.  

No petition for pardon should be filed until the expiration of a waiting period of at least five years after the date of the release of the petitioner from confinement or, in case no prison sentence was imposed, until the expiration of a period of at least five years after the date of the conviction of the petitioner. Generally, no petition should be submitted by a person who is on probation, parole, or supervised release.

Pardons have been traditionally given at least 5 years after the conviction.  I could only find an exception with Ford's pardon of Nixon, but that was a weird case, because Nixon was never convicted of anything.  The Pardon came before the conviction.  But, in most instances, Presidents pardon, a significant amount of time, after a conviction and/or prison time.

And as I stated before, there is a presumption of guilt with a pardon.  There was a debate over the Nixon Pardon regarding whether or not in taking the pardon Nixon was admitting guilt.  Nixon is reported to have never admitted guilt.  There is also traditionally a sense of regret for the crime at the time of the pardon and contrition.  

It is a Presidential gift to those who have committed crimes and are sorry for their crimes.  It's not at all about a redress of some perceived Judicial error.  That is the Judicial Branch's Constitutional power.

Previous pardons by Presidents have certainly not been like this one.  Additionally it wasn't a pardon at all, it was a commutation of a sentence.  

Again, this is the power of the President, but there are guidelines on commutations too.  [and yes, I know that no President has to follow the guidelines, but in this case, the claim has been made that "They all do it "this" way.  They, in fact, don't and haven't. ]

This commutation is not like all the others.



Quote

Sec. 1.3 Eligibility for filing petition for commutation of sentence.  

No petition for commutation of sentence, including remission of fine, should be filed if other forms of judicial or administrative relief are available, except upon a showing of exceptional circumstances.

Executive clemency, whether a pardon or a commutation, is given as an act of mercy and grace.  In this context, all Presidents have the power to grant clemency , and all have used it.

However, the reasoning given, was that judge's sentence was unduly harsh.  That is not the job of the President.  He can grant a pardon or commutation, but not decide that the court was in error.  That's the job of the Judiciary.

I heard that Bush did not consult with Justice or his attorneys before he released the press announcement.  It was worded badly.  He really overstepped if that was his real rationale.  Not in the commutation, that was IMHO entirely within his Constitutional Powers, but his reasoning is really flawed as I understand Separation of Powers.

Anyway, instead of us all getting off on the "They all do it", I wanted to point out that they all don't do "this".  Maybe some Presidents, have not used the guidelines, that is their right as well, but certainly most have used the guidelines.  Additionally, past presidents, didn't have the hubris to correct the jury, the court, and an appeals court.  They just gave the damn pardon.

Maybe you are all OK with the President telling the court they are wrong in sentencing.  But, the truth is the court just upheld advisory sentencing guidelines.  That's what the court does, and so according to the courts, the sentence was NOT excessive.  

Maybe you are all OK with the President telling Congress what they should make into law.  If you all feel the sentencing was too excessive, write your Congressman, that is his or her job--to make the law--not the presidents.

The Executive can grant clemency.  That is what he does.  

I'd prefer everyone keep to their own side of the street and let the other Branches do their job.

So, in short, it simply is not all the same.

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#30 Hambil

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:25 AM

Too many words Cait. If you want me to believe your 'facts' you need to condense into soundbites. I also recommend  starting your post by blaming a former Democratic president, or it's not going to sound believable. I'd go with something like this:

It's all Carter's fault. Carter was, in fact, the only president to pardon someone between 1977 and 1981. If you're going to blame someone, blame Carter. You'd like to conveniently forget that Carter was the first president since Ford to pardon people.

The facts are that Bush Jr. commuted the sentence of someone in his cabinet, before they'd served any time, which has never been done before - but it's no co-incidence that Carter also had a cabinet.

Edited by Hambil, 03 July 2007 - 06:26 AM.


#31 JamesValEson

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:19 AM

The thing that most gets me is that all the big Libs have come out just Whining and Moaning about this, but where where they when their "CIA Leak"witch hunt turned up Richard Amitage and Not some Higher up in the Admin?

Anyone have an answer? Anyone On. The. Left. have an answer? Personally, the Lefties gave up the Right to comment on this when they dropeed the hunt after Armitage admited he was the likely leaker. THAT is the Biggest BS of this whole thing and most exposes the Sham this was.

And before any of you go asking for my proof,  Just Google 'Richard Armitage, CIA Leak' and you'll get an [butt]load on it.

All I want ot know is what you all who are beating Bush and the Repubs on this think should happen to the Guy Who Actually Leaked The Name and not some Jobber who was trying to cover his own [butt] from trumped up charges?

Barry

Edited by JamesValEson, 03 July 2007 - 07:27 AM.

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#32 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:38 AM

Quote

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response.
Care to explain what a "liberalcon" might be?   :rolleyes:  

Meanwhile,  :lol: :lol: :lol: yeah, it is funny!  

:howling:

Edited by Nonny, 03 July 2007 - 08:22 AM.

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#33 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:42 AM

Ambassador Wilson is on NPR Morning Edition, but I can't find the link.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#34 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:21 AM

George W. Bush is One Tough Hombre

Quote

Tough enough to execute Karla Fay Tucker -- and then laugh about it. Tough enough to sign a death warrant for a man whose lawyer slept through the trial -- and then snicker when asked about it in a debate. Even tough enough to execute a great-grandmother who murdered her husband -- after he abused her....
Sobering....
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#35 MuseZack

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:54 AM

View PostRobL, on Jul 3 2007, 03:07 AM, said:

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

If you don't like the way Pardons/Commutations(sp?) are done, then lobby congress to take that power away from the president. Otherwise, too bad, so sad, should have done something about it before when Clinton did it.


FWIW, Clinton's most controversial pardon was of Marc Rich.  Marc Rich's lawyer was...wait for it...



Scooter Libby.
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#36 Zwolf

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:56 AM

Ah, the party of personal responsiblity.

Except not.

Cheers,

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#37 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:58 AM

View PostMuseZack, on Jul 3 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

View PostRobL, on Jul 3 2007, 03:07 AM, said:

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

If you don't like the way Pardons/Commutations(sp?) are done, then lobby congress to take that power away from the president. Otherwise, too bad, so sad, should have done something about it before when Clinton did it.


FWIW, Clinton's most controversial pardon was of Marc Rich.  Marc Rich's lawyer was...wait for it...



Scooter Libby.

:D

I wonder if now the same folks who ranted against the Marc Rich pardon (which I also thought was very, very wrong btw) will now rail against the Libby pardon. Principle and all that.....
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#38 BklnScott

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:04 AM

View PostRobL, on Jul 2 2007, 11:07 PM, said:

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

Clinton never granted clemency to somebody who worked for him... who was, in fact, working for him while he committed the crimes.  Bush just did that for a man who, until very recently, carried the titles "Senior Counselor to the President of the United States" and "Chief of Staff to the Vice President of the United States."

specs said:

I wonder if now the same folks who ranted against the Marc Rich pardon (which I also thought was very, very wrong btw) will now rail against the Libby pardon. Principle and all that.....

BWAHAHAHAHA.  Apparently not.

Edited by ScottEVill, 03 July 2007 - 09:05 AM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#39 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:10 AM

View PostMuseZack, on Jul 3 2007, 06:54 AM, said:

View PostRobL, on Jul 3 2007, 03:07 AM, said:

Funny, when Clinton gave out a bunch of questionable pardons in the last days of his administration, all the liberalcons just gave "meh" in response. But when Bush does it, you are all up in arms.

If you don't like the way Pardons/Commutations(sp?) are done, then lobby congress to take that power away from the president. Otherwise, too bad, so sad, should have done something about it before when Clinton did it.


FWIW, Clinton's most controversial pardon was of Marc Rich.  Marc Rich's lawyer was...wait for it...



Scooter Libby.
:howling: :howling: :howling:   OMG too funny!
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#40 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:18 AM

View PostNonny, on Jul 3 2007, 05:42 AM, said:

Ambassador Wilson is on NPR Morning Edition, but I can't find the link.
Found it.   :)  
Wilson Lambastes White House on Libby Case

Quote

"To his supporters who say [Libby] was a fall guy — that may well be," Wilson said. "But, a fall guy for who? That is the question that is still on the table."

Wilson told NPR that he is not surprised President Bush commuted Libby's prison sentence. Noting that President Bush does not give pardons or clemency lightly, Wilson suggested there may be a quid pro quo exchange for commuting Libby's sentence — and that it should be challenged.

"Congress ought to conduct an investigation of whether or not the president himself is a participant in the obstruction of justice," Wilson said, urging that it examine the text of Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's interviews with President Bush and Vice President Cheney...


Plame has said little throughout the investigation. Regarding Plame's reaction to President Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence, Wilson said, "I think it's safe to say that she shares my views."

Wilson says President Bush has made himself an accessory to the obstruction of justice and has removed "all incentive for Mr. Libby to address directly and truthfully the whole question of the role of the president and vice president."

"This was an act of betrayal of the national security of the country," Wilson said, regarding the disclosure of his wife's identity. "It was a very serious crime, and Americans know the difference between right and wrong."

Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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