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Libby Must Go to Jail During Appeal

Plame Case Scooter Libby 2007

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#41 Rov Judicata

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:29 AM

Typical liberal bias.

http://www.cnn.com/2.../30/wilson.cia/

February 11, 2004:

Quote

"If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is," Bush told reporters at an impromptu news conference during a fund-raising stop in Chicago, Illinois. "If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.

There was a leak out of his administration. Bush found out who it was. That person violated the law, and was taken care of. Y'all are just bitter because he's resolute.
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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#42 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:32 AM

Yep, taken care of.   :rolleyes:   Can't get more resolute than that.  It's hard work!  :p
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#43 Bobby

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:34 AM

View PostJuris Rovvius, on Jul 3 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Typical liberal bias.

http://www.cnn.com/2.../30/wilson.cia/

February 11, 2004:

Quote

"If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is," Bush told reporters at an impromptu news conference during a fund-raising stop in Chicago, Illinois. "If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.

There was a leak out of his administration. Bush found out who it was. That person violated the law, and was taken care of. Y'all are just bitter because he's resolute.


Would that we were all "taken care of" so well.

#44 Timon

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 09:41 AM

But...but, but, but Clinton!


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Getting kind of old after nearly 8 years.
Kind of like trying to bring up crap Johnson or Carter did at this point.

#45 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:18 AM

Editor & Publisher has a roundup of editorial page reactions to Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. Interesting reading:

http://www.editorand...t_id=1003606531
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#46 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:18 AM

I listened to Olbermann last night, and he had John Dean on the show.  Dean made the comparison, that this commutation would have been like Nixon commuting Halderman or Erlickman's sentences during Watergate.  I had to laugh, because while no one thinks this will reach the WH the way it did Nixon, it does look like a corrupt politician covering his ass by helping out a co-conspirator.

While the President might have the power to grant clemency, this one doesn't pass the stink test for 'conflict of interest'.

In any event, it's a done deal now and Libby is out of play in this so to speak.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#47 BklnScott

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:30 AM

NYPost said:

New York Post: "If Bush thinks such parsing will spare him the political backlash an outright pardon would produce, he's wrong. The jackals are tearing at his heels this morning -- and for doing only half the necessary job. Bush knows a pardon is warranted. He should grant it.

Libby could've strangled someone with his bare hands on live TV, and if the Post thought he did it to protect the Bush admin, they would argue for the pardon.

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#48 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:30 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Editor & Publisher has a roundup of editorial page reactions to Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. Interesting reading:

http://www.editorand...t_id=1003606531

humm, seems the media has a few choice words about it too.  

It's an interesting claim, that the commutation itself is an obstruction of justice.  I suppose there could be a case made for the old "it's not whether or not the President has the power to do it, it's how he uses that power".  If he used it to obstruct justice then.. well, he used it to obstruct justice.  

But, we'll never know.  That's the way it is with this Administration.  They don't allow anyone to 'peek' in--not Congressional subpoenas, not special prosecutors, no one.  It's difficult not to go into agreement with the claims from the fringe Left that this Administrations holds itself above the other two branches when stuff like this happens.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#49 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:22 AM

View PostCait, on Jul 3 2007, 08:30 AM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Editor & Publisher has a roundup of editorial page reactions to Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. Interesting reading:

http://www.editorand...t_id=1003606531

humm, seems the media has a few choice words about it too.  

It's an interesting claim, that the commutation itself is an obstruction of justice.  I suppose there could be a case made for the old "it's not whether or not the President has the power to do it, it's how he uses that power".  If he used it to obstruct justice then.. well, he used it to obstruct justice.  

But, we'll never know.  That's the way it is with this Administration.  They don't allow anyone to 'peek' in--not Congressional subpoenas, not special prosecutors, no one.  It's difficult not to go into agreement with the claims from the fringe Left that this Administrations holds itself above the other two branches when stuff like this happens.

Ford pardoned Nixon.
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#50 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:39 AM

I'm interested in Bush's claim that Libby's prison sentence was "excessive" even though the prison sentence was within federally mandated  guidelines and was levied and supported by Republican-appointed justices.

Does this mean that we need to revise those federal sentencing guidelines for lying to feds and grand juries? Does this mean Bush thinks that no jail time at all should be required for those crimes? It certainly looks that way. After all, if he did this solely because he thought the jail sentence was "excessive" he could have commuted it to a few months or even a few days. So I guess he means that none of us should go to jail if we lie to federal investigators and/or juries.

He certainly has changed from his law-and-order days as Texas governor.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#51 Godeskian

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:41 AM

shrug, scum will look after scum,.

Defy Gravity!


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#52 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:49 AM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Jul 3 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

View PostCait, on Jul 3 2007, 08:30 AM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Editor & Publisher has a roundup of editorial page reactions to Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. Interesting reading:

http://www.editorand...t_id=1003606531

humm, seems the media has a few choice words about it too.  

It's an interesting claim, that the commutation itself is an obstruction of justice.  I suppose there could be a case made for the old "it's not whether or not the President has the power to do it, it's how he uses that power".  If he used it to obstruct justice then.. well, he used it to obstruct justice.  

But, we'll never know.  That's the way it is with this Administration.  They don't allow anyone to 'peek' in--not Congressional subpoenas, not special prosecutors, no one.  It's difficult not to go into agreement with the claims from the fringe Left that this Administrations holds itself above the other two branches when stuff like this happens.

Ford pardoned Nixon.

And???

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#53 Godeskian

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:36 PM

Bush said once, on his first presidential campaign trail

Quote

"politics, after a time of tarnished ideals, can be higher and better".

I guess that lying to a grand jury is now the higher and better ideal of politics.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#54 Rhea

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:49 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 09:39 AM, said:

I'm interested in Bush's claim that Libby's prison sentence was "excessive" even though the prison sentence was within federally mandated  guidelines and was levied and supported by Republican-appointed justices.

Does this mean that we need to revise those federal sentencing guidelines for lying to feds and grand juries? Does this mean Bush thinks that no jail time at all should be required for those crimes? It certainly looks that way. After all, if he did this solely because he thought the jail sentence was "excessive" he could have commuted it to a few months or even a few days. So I guess he means that none of us should go to jail if we lie to federal investigators and/or juries.

He certainly has changed from his law-and-order days as Texas governor.

Ah, but in those days he wasn't sentencing his own lackeys. :p
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#55 Rhea

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:52 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Jul 3 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Bush said once, on his first presidential campaign trail

Quote

"politics, after a time of tarnished ideals, can be higher and better".

I guess that lying to a grand jury is now the higher and better ideal of politics.

He lies well. One of my favorites was when he was running for President when he kept bragging that  while he was governor of Texas the high school dropout rate was only 1%. People in Texas were surprised, because common sense alone would tell you it's higher. So an independent study was commissioned in Dallas, and it turned out to be more like 25% (might have been 20%, can't remember exactly but definitely in the 20%'s somewhere)! Lot of difference, don't you think, between 1in 100 kids dropping out of high school and 1 in 4 or 5? :eek:

Turned out Bush's staff had diddled the numbers so he could speak about the wonderfulness of him and education.  :wacko:

What kills me is that there are people who believed him then and people who still believe him.

After all the times he's stood up in public and lied, surely nobody is surprised at his "sudden" lack of ethics?

And is anybody else sick to death of him saying "So I said, Vladimir, (I call him Vladimir, you know...)" :barf:


And Lord, I'd like to see presidential pardons simply eliminated. Not a single president I can think of has ever used them for anything except getting their buddies off the hoo/paying off political IOU's (except for possibly Ford, and I still don't know whether pardoning Nixon was the right or wrong thing to do, although I tend to think it was the wrong thing). It has very little point and almost always makes the president using the pardon look really bad.

Edited by Rhea, 03 July 2007 - 01:10 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#56 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:37 PM

Well, despite all his talk about how he respected the jury's verdict and chose to let the fine and other penalties stand, Bush today refused to rule out a pardon down the line. So it looks like he'll pardon Libby entirely on his way out the door in January 2009--a day that can't come soon enough for me and now for Scooter Libby.  :glare:

http://www.forbes.co.../ap3881583.html

By the way, I saw this press conference and Bush looked more uncomfortable than I've ever seen him. He was asked why the prison sentence was "excessive" if it fell within federal sentencing guidelines for perjury and obstruction of justice, and while he fumbled for an evasive answer, he looked miserable.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#57 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:37 PM

View PostCait, on Jul 3 2007, 09:49 AM, said:

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Jul 3 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

View PostCait, on Jul 3 2007, 08:30 AM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Editor & Publisher has a roundup of editorial page reactions to Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. Interesting reading:

http://www.editorand...t_id=1003606531

humm, seems the media has a few choice words about it too.  

It's an interesting claim, that the commutation itself is an obstruction of justice.  I suppose there could be a case made for the old "it's not whether or not the President has the power to do it, it's how he uses that power".  If he used it to obstruct justice then.. well, he used it to obstruct justice.  

But, we'll never know.  That's the way it is with this Administration.  They don't allow anyone to 'peek' in--not Congressional subpoenas, not special prosecutors, no one.  It's difficult not to go into agreement with the claims from the fringe Left that this Administrations holds itself above the other two branches when stuff like this happens.

Ford pardoned Nixon.

And???

And this is no big surprise and there's plenty of precedent for it.  Nor is it an abuse of executive power.  Nor is it obstruction of justice unless someone can show that Bush did it to "bribe" Libby into not talking which would be hugely difficult if not impossible to prove.  You know how I feel about this administration but this is something Bush is perfectly within his rights to do.
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#58 Rhea

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:39 PM

^He has the right legally, but morally? Bah.  :suspect:  :glare:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#59 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:42 PM

View PostRhea, on Jul 3 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

^He has the right legally, but morally? Bah.  :suspect:  :glare:

When people start throwing around terms like "obstruction of justice" and "abuse of executive power", the issue IS legal (not moral).  Unfortunately the law is not necessarily about morality.  Lots of things don't pass the moral smell test.  That doesn't make them illegal.

Lil
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#60 Hambil

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:45 PM

Bush has no political constraints right now. He isn't running for re-election, and nobody even close to him is running. Anyone who does run will run *against* his name, and certainly he won't be campaigning for them. The only thing that reigns in a president (other than internal moral code haha) is political pressure, and Bush is pressure free.

Edited by Hambil, 03 July 2007 - 01:46 PM.




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