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Libby Must Go to Jail During Appeal

Plame Case Scooter Libby 2007

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#61 Berry

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 02:14 PM

Must be nice to be a King and not just a President.  :blink:
The thing is...you couldn't say "No",even if you wanted to. (Bobby Comfort in "Cool Money")

#62 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 02:47 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Jul 3 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

And this is no big surprise and there's plenty of precedent for it.  Nor is it an abuse of executive power.  Nor is it obstruction of justice unless someone can show that Bush did it to "bribe" Libby into not talking which would be hugely difficult if not impossible to prove.  You know how I feel about this administration but this is something Bush is perfectly within his rights to do.

And I never said he didn't have the power to do so or used the words "abuse of power".  I actually stated it right up front.  I quoted something that referenced the section of the Constitution granting said powers and also said ...

Cait said:

Truth be told, while I think it sends the wrong message to the country about responsibility and such, at least he used Executive powers correctly for once. He does have the power to commute a sentence, and he did. But like the statement says, Libby still lives with the conviction.

In the part you quoted of mine, I merely said, "It's difficult not to go into agreement with the claims from the fringe Left that this Administrations holds itself above the other two branches when stuff like this happens."

And it is difficult, but what he did was certainly within his Executive powers.  Again, I never said it wasn't.

As to the rhetoric [both mine and that of others] about Obstruction, well, that's the whole point of obstructions isn't it--to obstruct.  So, waiting around for proof of obstruction is sort of like looking for Jimmy Hoffa's body.  You know it's out there somewhere, but you can't prove it.  

BTW, I'm not up in arms about the "Obstruction" talking point, nor am I saying that's what happened.  I said it didn't pass the stink test.. and it doesn't.  It stinks, but it was certainly within his rights.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#63 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 02:49 PM

View PostBerry, on Jul 3 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

Must be nice to be a King and not just a President.  :blink:

Again.  The PRESIDENT has the power to do this.  This is not new.  It's not a "king" thing.
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#64 The Tyrant

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 04:06 PM

Quote

Spectacles

So I guess he means that none of us should go to jail if we lie to federal investigators and/or juries.


^Only if you're Republican and a friend (or cronie) of Bush II...

Edited by RichieTyrant, 03 July 2007 - 04:08 PM.

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#65 Bobby

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 04:13 PM

View PostRichieTyrant, on Jul 3 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

Quote

Spectacles

So I guess he means that none of us should go to jail if we lie to federal investigators and/or juries.


^Only if you're Republican and a friend (or cronie) of Bush II...


LOL, lawyers and their clients convicted of perjury should bombard the White House with letters requesting commutations.  Really, he can pardon and commute sentences for people in his own administration for wrongdoing?  I don't care if it's a Democrat or Republican, that is wrong on so many levels.  Break the law, I got your back... :wacko:

#66 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:08 PM

A blast from the past:

http://www.dailykos....7/3/114256/1639
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#67 Julianus

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:44 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 10:08 PM, said:

I forget how many days in jail Bill Clinton spent for lying in court. ;)
  However, if anyone ever gets indicted for perjury in a Federal case I have to suggest that      they find out the legal team that defended former Massachusetts House Speaker Thomas Finneran. They got a deal for Mr. Finneran where pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice. Punishment - $25000 fine and a couple of years of "unsupervised" probation. I think that means that you can't own a gun or associate with known felons, but nobody's going to check. You can, however, get a job as a talk host at WRKO-AM in Boston. I know I've mentioned this before, but I just love it.*LOL* Mr. Libby, at least for now, still has to pay a $250,000 fine and serve regular probation.      

Comments by Durbin, Schumer, and Clinton make me wonder if their minions are more nervous today about being thrown under the bus at need.  

The only way to impress on these people, Republicans and Democrats, that their actions have consequences is to vote them out of office. Actually voting them all out on a regular basis would be the best way, imho, to cut down on the power of lobbyists and keep corruption to a smaller degree, or at least disburse any ill gotten gains among more people.                          
Julianus

Edited by Julianus, 04 July 2007 - 04:47 AM.


#68 JamesValEson

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:03 PM

View PostJulianus, on Jul 3 2007, 06:44 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 10:08 PM, said:

I forget how many days in jail Bill Clinton spent for lying in court. ;)
  However, if anyone ever gets indicted for perjury in a Federal case I have to suggest that      they find out the legal team that defended former Massachusetts House Speaker Thomas Finneran. They got a deal for Mr. Finneran where pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice. Punishment - $25000 fine and a couple of years of "unsupervised" probation. I think that means that you can't own a gun or associate with known felons, but nobody's going to check. You can, however, get a job as a talk host at WRKO-AM in Boston. I know I've mentioned this before, but I just love it.*LOL* Mr. Libby, at least for now, still has to pay a $250,000 fine and serve regular probation.      

Comments by Durbin, Schumer, and Clinton make me wonder if their minions are more nervous today about being thrown under the bus at need.  

The only way to impress on these people, Republicans and Democrats, that their actions have consequences is to vot them out of office. Actually voting them all out on a regular basis would be the best way, imho. to cut down on the power of lobbyists and keep corruption to a smaller degree, or at least disburse any ill gotten gains among more people.                          
Julianus

To go furthur on your comment, I also think the only way to show these wankers on Both sides of the isle that Corruption and Hypocrisy won't be toloerated is to begin looking into third parties for candidates. And to get as many of your friends on board should you find a Really good third party candidate.

I still find it tewlling that No one has commented on the way this witch hunt turned into a purjury case when the Dems only came back with a small fish and not one of the Big Juicy higer- ups as the leaker. It's just so ironic how Libby is getting shanked for lying to cover his own butt when he could have just been truthful and had nothing happen to him.

Barry

Edited by JamesValEson, 03 July 2007 - 07:04 PM.

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#69 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:24 PM

View PostJamesValEson, on Jul 3 2007, 05:03 PM, said:

It's just so ironic how Libby is getting shanked for lying to cover his own butt when he could have just been truthful and had nothing happen to him.

The irony doesn't stop there.  If Libby had told the truth, we don't know what it might have led to [if anything].  that's the whole point of obstruction of justice--it obstructs justice.  Had he told the truth, we might have, you know... known the truth  [whatever it was].

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#70 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:28 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 03:08 PM, said:


oh dear.......... I was drinking some ice water when I read this.........

Quote

Fellow Republican Texan Tom Delay, himself indicted, nonetheless issued a scathing attack on the commutation.

"No man is above the law, and no man is below the law," Delay said, choking back tears. "That's the principle that we all hold very dear in this country."

I spewed it all over my keyboard.  What a mess.  Well, the mess was better than having the water go down the wrong pipe or out my nose.

Given not only recent events, but Delay's fall from power, there was a particular kind of irony that only comes along maybe once in a lifetime.

Edited by Cait, 03 July 2007 - 07:28 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#71 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:10 PM

View PostJulianus, on Jul 3 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

Mr. Libby, at least for now, still has to pay a $250,000 fine and serve regular probation.      

Comments by Durbin, Schumer, and Clinton make me wonder if their minions are more nervous today about being thrown under the bus at need.
Somebody else who might be nervous--the probation officer who gets stuck with him.   :eek4:   If, of course, he actually has to serve the probation.   :unsure:
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#72 Cait

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:11 PM

LOL, I have no idea why I find this so amusing and ironic, but I do.  Seems someone is going to make Bush explain himself, even it it's only a clarification.  Let's here it for the Judiciary Branch.

It seems Judge Walton issued order for the President to explain how Libby can do probation.  Seems the original order was for Libby to serve 30 months and then be released on supervised probation.  If he never goes to jail, what does that do to the original order.

It's short and you can read it at the link.  

http://sentencing.ty.../libby_3583.pdf

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#73 QueenTiye

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:15 PM

View PostCait, on Jul 2 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

Which is interesting in light of a recent Roberts' Court decision.  [sorry I just have to laugh when the hypocrisy is on the other foot]

Washington Post

Quote

Friday, June 22, 2007; Page A02

The Supreme Court ruled yesterday that criminal sentences within guidelines set by a federal commission are generally entitled to be upheld on appeal, a decision that limits legal options for defendants who feel that they have been punished too harshly.

By a vote of 8 to 1, the court held that, even though it recently ruled that the sentencing ranges set by the U.S. Sentencing Commission are no longer mandatory, judges who follow them may be presumed to have acted reasonably.

Just pausing to note that it may not be a fair characterization of this ruling as a "Robert's court" kind of thing, when the justices ruled 8 - 1 on this matter.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#74 Mark

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:28 PM

View PostRhea, on Jul 3 2007, 12:51 AM, said:

Oops. Double post. :o

Mark: Yeah, but it was a good enough point to post twice, Rhea. Presidents should not have the ability to pardon convicted criminals on a whim...or perhaps at all.
Mark
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#75 Cait

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:00 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on Jul 3 2007, 09:15 PM, said:

Just pausing to note that it may not be a fair characterization of this ruling as a "Robert's court" kind of thing, when the justices ruled 8 - 1 on this matter.

QT

How so?  He is the Chief, it is his court.  ;)

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#76 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:09 AM

Well - maybe I'm misreading you. But the term "Robert's court" seems to imply that the decision is a conservative leaning one, brought on by the appointment of Roberts and others, whereas this decision was nearly unanimous - not at all decided along that familiar 5-4 split.  If I misread your intent, I apologize.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#77 G1223

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:31 AM

You didn't QT.
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#78 Hambil

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:36 AM

This makes me wonder just what the 'chief justice' does. I had assumed, until Bush appointed Roberts, that chief justice was either elected by the other justices, or a title given based on tenure.

#79 Cait

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:58 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on Jul 3 2007, 10:09 PM, said:

Well - maybe I'm misreading you. But the term "Robert's court" seems to imply that the decision is a conservative leaning one, brought on by the appointment of Roberts and others, whereas this decision was nearly unanimous - not at all decided along that familiar 5-4 split.  If I misread your intent, I apologize.

QT

Well, I think that "others" probably have that take on it, but no, my intent with that particular comment was to point out that the Roberts' Court had upheld advisory sentencing guidelines just a few weeks ago.  

I thought it was even more powerful that the court decided that 8-1.  Perhaps the term Roberts' Court is already some kind of negative, but I didn't mean it as anything but a benign description of whose court it was/is.  To be honest, it will be a long time before I think that some kind of "philosophy" will actually emerge to the point where I'd label it the Roberts' Court in the same way we talk about the Warren Court or the Rehnquist Court.  He's still relatively new and I think it is premature to use the term to define the court.


View PostG1223, on Jul 3 2007, 10:31 PM, said:

You didn't QT.

You know G, I put up with a lot from you. I let it all go.  I seldom speak one unkind word to you.  I've defend you in AQG when others wanted your head.  So... if you don't' mind, I'm going to ask you to refrain for speaking for me.  I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that I'm capable of speaking [in tomes] for myself.  Your assumptions about what I meant, and your assertion that you know what I meant, are out of line.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#80 Julianus

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 05:11 AM

View PostJamesValEson, on Jul 4 2007, 12:03 AM, said:

View PostJulianus, on Jul 3 2007, 06:44 PM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 3 2007, 10:08 PM, said:

I forget how many days in jail Bill Clinton spent for lying in court. ;)
  However, if anyone ever gets indicted for perjury in a Federal case I have to suggest that      they find out the legal team that defended former Massachusetts House Speaker Thomas Finneran. They got a deal for Mr. Finneran where pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice. Punishment - $25000 fine and a couple of years of "unsupervised" probation. I think that means that you can't own a gun or associate with known felons, but nobody's going to check. You can, however, get a job as a talk host at WRKO-AM in Boston. I know I've mentioned this before, but I just love it.*LOL* Mr. Libby, at least for now, still has to pay a $250,000 fine and serve regular probation.      

Comments by Durbin, Schumer, and Clinton make me wonder if their minions are more nervous today about being thrown under the bus at need.  

The only way to impress on these people, Republicans and Democrats, that their actions have consequences is to vot them out of office. Actually voting them all out on a regular basis would be the best way, imho. to cut down on the power of lobbyists and keep corruption to a smaller degree, or at least disburse any ill gotten gains among more people.                          
Julianus

To go furthur on your comment, I also think the only way to show these wankers on Both sides of the isle that Corruption and Hypocrisy won't be toloerated is to begin looking into third parties for candidates. And to get as many of your friends on board should you find a Really good third party candidate.

I still find it tewlling that No one has commented on the way this witch hunt turned into a purjury case when the Dems only came back with a small fish and not one of the Big Juicy higer- ups as the leaker. It's just so ironic how Libby is getting shanked for lying to cover his own butt when he could have just been truthful and had nothing happen to him.

Barry
I agree with you about supporting and voting for third party candidates when you find one you agree with. I've voted for some Libertarian candidates in the last couple of elections.
Pax,
Julianus



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