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The Dark Side of Israels Actions

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#1 rhuhne

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 06:29 PM

Many of my Middle Eastern friends have been so kind as to point me to some links that indicate that Israel is not so innocent as it would like to appear and the U.S. is implicated also.

I'll put a few of them here so you can take a look and say what you think.


http://www.geocities...ndex_usint.html

One of the greatest atrocities ever committed by the U.S. and Israel against U.S. servicemen is documented here.

http://ussliberty.org/

Follow the links and perhaps you'll wonder as did I what kind of hold does Israel hold over the U.S.?
How do we allow this to happen?

Excerpt from the following:

Special Report

The Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967, And the 32-Year Cover-up That Has Followed
By James E. Akins, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs 12/1999, pages 28-34,36


Quote

From 1948 until 1967 the Syrians sat on the Golan Heights and shelled the defenseless and peaceful Israeli farmers below. This was done out of maliciousness or a desire to be provocative or perhaps just because the Syrians were evil. Clearly this situation had become intolerable to the Israelis and they had not only the right but the duty to change it. And they did; the occupation of the Heights—although there may not have been any specific provocation during the Israeli attacks on Egypt and Jordan—was perfectly understandable and justifiable.

These “facts” were widely “understood,” I might even say “universally” understood, in the U.S.

Brent Scowcroft, subsequently head of the National Security Council, responded archly when I suggested that the story wasn’t exactly right. “Everyone knows the facts,” he said, “I was just in Israel and I saw for myself what had happened.”

The problem was—and is—that this Israeli version of the Golan is pure fiction. Every one of the 1,000-odd clashes between Syria and Israel between 1948 and 1967 was examined by the U.N. Truce Supervisory Commission, which found that only a very few had clearly been caused by the Syrians. A few dozen were ambiguous and all the rest were caused by Israel. But, many Israelis point out, the U.N. was notoriously anti-Israel, so how could its reports be believed? Well, there were many officers of many nations and they all reported the same thing. Could they all have been lying? Still, we no longer have to rely only on U.N. documentation.

Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and had given the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997—two years ago—when it was published in a leading Israeli daily newspaper, Yediot Ahronot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan’s daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.

In the interview, Tal interjected, “But they were sitting on the Golan Heights and…”

“Never mind that,” said Dayan, “I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let’s talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn’t possible to do anything—[it was] in the demilitarized zone—and would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force…And that’s how it was.”

Furthermore, Dayan thought that the land would have to be given back to Syria if there was ever to be peace in the region, and taking it would result in the loss of many Israeli soldiers.

Then why did he give the order to invade? Essentially it was because of pressure from the would-be settlers who convinced Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister, to occupy the Heights and the fertile lands beyond. When asked if that was all there was to it, Dayan replied,

“I can tell you with absolute confidence that [they] were not thinking about [security] they were thinking about the Heights’ land….I saw them; I spoke with them. They didn’t even try to hide their greed for that land.”

During the peace talks between Syria and Israel under Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin there was almost full agreement. Israel would withdraw from all of the Heights; there would be demilitarized zones on both sides of the border—more in Syria than in Israel. The main point—perhaps the only significant unresolved issue—was where the final border would be: the international pre-1947 border (the Israeli position) or the 1948 truce line (the Syrian position). A total of less than 15 square miles was at issue.

This encouraging development ended with the murder of Rabin and the subsequent rise of Binyamin Netanyahu as Israeli prime minister. Netanyahu agreed to talks with Syria but they had to begin all over again. The Syrians said they wanted the talks resumed but they would have to proceed from positions already agreed. No talks have taken place, showing that sometimes terrorism does pay off; Rabin’s murderer justified his action because of Rabin’s “treason.” And Netanyahu revived the old discredited line that the Golan Heights were necessary to protect Israel’s security.

But back to George Ball’s comments on the Liberty. He concludes:

“Yet the ultimate lesson of the Liberty attack had far more effect on policy in Israel than in America. Israel’s leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If America’s leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything.”

This is hard to gainsay.

In fact, the Israelis tried to press their advantage almost immediately.

During the 1967 war Israel occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula and among the great prizes of its victory were the Egyptian oil fields which they proceeded to exploit to capacity until the Sinai was returned some 20 years later. But the main Egyptian oil fields were off-shore in the Gulf of Suez. The Israelis maintained that the new Israel-Egyptian border was the median line in the Gulf and the oil fields were to the east of the line, therefore under Israeli control.

General Yitzhak Rabin came to Washington very shortly after the war to press the claim. He said that Israel had occupied the drilling platforms during the war (which might have changed the legality of the matter) but, in fact, the general was lying and we knew it.

That did not deter General Rabin. He hadn’t come to negotiate; he had come to dictate and he proceeded to tell Secretary of State Rusk what “the United States had to do.” He even gave a schedule: this must be done today, this tomorrow and this by the end of the week.

Dean Rusk was a mild Georgian, a gentleman who never lost his temper, never raised his voice. He was also completely bald, and as Rabin ranted Rusk’s neck turned red, then his lower face, and the red kept rising like a thermometer. When he was completely red he said, quite coolly:

“General. We have all heard the Soviet propaganda repeated by President Nasser and others, that Israel is an American colony imposed on the Middle East to enable the U.S. to dominate it. We all know that is nonsense. But I would like to remind you that the United States is not a colony of Israel.”


If this intrigues you read the entire article: http://www.geocities...ns_liberty.html

#2 Enmar

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 06:39 PM

For more details see:

http://www.mt.net/~w...asonapollo.html

:glare:

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#3 rhuhne

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 07:24 PM

Pravda.RU:Main:More in detail  

11:03 2001-08-14

UNITED NATIONS CALLS ON ISRAEL TO END OCCUPATION

Kofi Annan, United Nations Secretary-General, has called on the State of Israel to end its occupation of Palestinian-controlled areas.

Kofi Annan stated that he ?insists strongly that the occupation of the House of the Orient and other Palestinian buildings ceases immediately¦. He called these occupations by Israel ?not a very intelligent step which will lead to more friction and more violence¦.

This message came shortly after Israeli armed forces had occupied the Headquarters of Palestinian telecommunications in Abu Dis, expelling 15 workers by force and raising the Israeli flag over the building. At the same time, Israel announced the end of all Palestinian activity in East Jerusalem and the government of Ariel Sharon took the decision to open another Israeli police station in the area, in another attempt to control the city whose population is largely Palestinian.

In a Cabinet meeting, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres called on Sharon-s government to dialogue with the Palestinians, because, as he said ?the present policy cannot continue¦. Sharon agreed to initiate dialogue with the Palestinian leadership, except Arafat. Peres yet again shows himself to be in favour of a softer and more dovish approach than the strong-handed and hawkish approach of Sharon.

Peres stated: ?Some claim that one should not negotiate under fire and I accept that but it is necessary to apply the ceasefire. Without this, there is no chance. If a great effort is not made to initiate negotiations, the result will be the continuation of violence at all levels and the strengthening of Hamas¦.

Meanwhile, the violence continued unabated. A Palestinian suicide bomber killed one person and wounded 15 in a kamikaze attack in the suburbs of Haifa, while a Palestinian child was killed by the Israeli Armed Forces in Hebron, where six others were wounded. There were a further three people wounded in clashes between Palestinians and Israeli Security Forces in Gaza.

Until Israel can be forced to accept and implement UN Resolutions, which pass through the policy of leaving the Palestinian territories occupied, the building of colonies, and practices such as shooting at the eyes of Palestinian children with rubber bullets or impeding pregnant women from getting to a hospital to have their babies, leaving them to die in the street, there can never be peace in the Middle East.
Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY
PRAVDA.Ru
LISBON PORTUGAL

Edited by rhuhne, 12 June 2003 - 07:52 PM.


#4 Ogami

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 01:39 AM

Rhuhne wrote:

Many of my Middle Eastern friends have been so kind as to point me to some links that indicate that Israel is not so innocent as it would like to appear and the U.S. is implicated also.

Who said they were innocent? They started out as terrorists attacking the British Authority, who turned back WWII refugee ships at pain of death from their Palestinian territory (there was never any country named Palestine.)

As soon as Israel was founded, they were attacked on all sides by their arab neighbors. Aside from a brief peace with Egypt and an even briefer peace with Yassir Arafat, Israel has been in a constant 50 year war. Atrocities happen, that's war.

Israel has been fighting a defensive war for its very existence, look at the map. Tell me how this tiny country is a threat to its neighbors.

http://www.lib.utexa...st_ref_2002.jpg

The arab states don't give a damn about the Palestinians, they'd rather fund them to be a thorn in Israel's side rather than pressure them to pursue true peace. The moment every arab state sign lasting peace with Israel, the war ends. So don't tell me about Israel being the bad guy. For 50 years, Israel has been the bad guy for simply breathing.

-Ogami

#5 Rhea

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 02:06 AM

Enmar, on Jun 12 2003, 12:43 AM, said:

For more details see:

http://www.mt.net/~w...asonapollo.html

:glare:

Enmar
Enmar, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

And for my money, I believe the official story on the USS Liberty is the truth. Israel had no reason in the world to intentionally bomb the USS Liberty - there's no point to bombing your allies, any more than anyone starts out to kill fellow soldiers with friendly fire.

Rhuhne, when your sources point you toward something other than deliberately inflammatory unofficial sources I'll be interested.

Edited by Rhea, 13 June 2003 - 02:25 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#6 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 02:37 AM

Rhea, on Jun 12 2003, 08:10 AM, said:

Rhuhne, when your sources point you toward something other than deliberately inflammatory unofficial sources I'll be interested.
Oh well... :(

It's my first attempt at starting a controversial post. I'll do better next time.

#7 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 02:47 AM

Ogami, on Jun 12 2003, 07:43 AM, said:

Rhuhne wrote:


Israel has been fighting a defensive war for its very existence, look at the map. Tell me how this tiny country is a threat to its neighbors.

http://www.lib.utexa...st_ref_2002.jpg
I've looked at that map and I didn't see Palistine anywhere on it.

Which is the tiny country?

Israel has been funded by the U.S. and supplied with some of the best in arms, so they might be the little kid on the block, but they carry a very BIG gun.

The point of this discussion is not to prove how wrong Israel is, but to show that there may be other sides of the story.

Where is the Palistinian military?

I know someone knows precisely what they're made up of.

Edited by rhuhne, 13 June 2003 - 03:18 AM.


#8 G1223

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 03:54 AM

rhuhne, on Jun 12 2003, 03:51 PM, said:

[
Where is the Palistinian military?
It's off killing 16+ civilians with sucide bombs. Maybe they need to just stop folks from entering anyone who tries to come from the terrorist state.

There are your brave heroic people killing women and children. And yet we do not see thousands of dead palestinainas as a response. Who is being held back or holding themselves back and who's not?

So excuse me while there are wonder people in the west bank and Palestine maybe we should think of them as the excepttion rather than the rule and the Terrorist as the standard.
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#9 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:06 AM

After spending some time researching this I have concluded the whole thing has been screwy since the original set up in 1947.

Both countries lands have little continuity and it has only gotten worse since their origin.

There has to be some solution. Both sides are equally at fault. Yet, the bias appears to be against Palestine with anyone disagreeing with the Israeli take to be anti-Semetic.

I don't approve of Palestine's methods, yet I don't know that I wouldn't do the same given their situation.

Over the course of time much land and many people have been lost to the Israelis.

Palestine is understandable upset without much support.
Israel is overly supported by the US and I wonder what's in it for us. It's not as simple as supporting the underdog.

#10 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:16 AM

Quote

It's off killing 16+ civilians with sucide bombs. Maybe they need to just stop folks from entering anyone who tries to come from the terrorist state.

Yes. But where are their tanks, airforce, navy, military?

It seems to me that all they have are civilians willing to stand up for their country.

I've seen Israelis responding to rocks and bottles with bullets and rockets.

I don't agree with Palestine methods but 16/1 seems pretty effective.

#11 Rhea

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:06 AM

rhuhne, on Jun 12 2003, 08:41 AM, said:

Rhea, on Jun 12 2003, 08:10 AM, said:


Rhuhne, when your sources point you toward something other than deliberately inflammatory unofficial sources I'll be interested.
Oh well... :(

It's my first attempt at starting a controversial post. I'll do better next time.
{{{{{{{Rhuhne}}}}}}}}

The trouble with pages like those is that they abound on the Internet - hatefilled stuff from special interest groups. I try to look for official source (at least the media, if not more in-depth stuff from the governemtn). Otherwise, you get stuck with dueling rhetoric instead of facts.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#12 G1223

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:25 AM

Well since you support terrorists anything goes is the rule. I would debate with you but peace for you is when every jew is dead pretty much means there is no debate just a need for the dogs of war to be unleashed. I personally hope war could be avoided but if a mound of skulls marks where Palistine used to be then so be it.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#13 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:40 AM

G1223, on Jun 12 2003, 12:29 PM, said:

Well since you support terrorists anything goes is the rule. I would debate with you but peace for you is when every jew is dead pretty much means there is no debate just a need for the dogs of war to be unleashed. I personally hope war could be avoided but if a mound of skulls marks where Palistine used to be then so be it.
I think that's a pretty unfair remark.

There is no army in Palestine for Israel to do battle with.
Who are they attacking?
Israel continues to support the constant growth in settlements overrunning Palestine.
Palestine has continued to lose land to Israels aggression and is now divided into multiple territories surrounded by Israel.

This topic is about the government of Israel not about Jews. Israel just happens to be a Jewish state.

I don't support the terrorists, but I just don't what options they truly have. The atrocities that Israel has committed by the mass murder of Palestinians is hard to look away from.

For the most part Israel appears to be the agressor on most of the cases.

The thing that is really curious to me is that the Arabs and the Jews have decended from the same bloodline and the betrayal of the Arabs by the Jews has been going on since the days of Mohammed.

Edited by rhuhne, 13 June 2003 - 06:44 AM.


#14 Kevin Street

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:41 AM

Quote

rhuhne:
I don't agree with Palestine methods but 16/1 seems pretty effective.

No, the terrorist attacks aren't effective, at least not if the terrorists are trying to create an independent Palestinian state. They're spectacularly ineffective, even catastrophically so, since they encourage more and more retaliations from the Israeli military. And the whole suicide bomber/martyr to the cause mindset has poisoned Palestinian politics (or what passes for politics there) to such a degree it's uncertain what could be done to foster democratic ideals among the Palestinian people. Maybe a mass exorcism.

Israel has done a lot of terrible things, it's true, but at least they're trying to reach out for peace. It's Palestinian suicide bombers (and the occasional Israeli nut job with a gun) that keep setting things back. All in all, I'd say that it's the Palestinian side that has the most to answer for. They're the ones who commit horrific acts of barbarism every other day, and they're the ones who give shelter to  evil SOBs like the psychos in Hammas and Islamic Jihad.

Before there can be any lasting peace, everyone has to lay their cards on the table and come clean. Does the Palestinian government really want peaceful coexistence, or is it trying to play a waiting game until the mythical day when the arab nations will unite their armies and wipe Israel off the map? If they truly want peace in this generation, then they will have to make a real effort to root out the terrorist organizations that live among them. And if they do so, Israel will have to make a real effort to support the Palestinian government in its efforts. No more incursions into Palestinian territory and no more retaliations.

Both sides will have to make sacrifices. The Israelis will have to hold back even in the face of brutality and have confidence in the PA, and the Palestinian Government will have to grow up and seperate itself from the terrorists, no matter how popular they are. The evil has to end sometime.
Per aspera ad astra

#15 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:48 AM

It's not effective for achieving peace. But head on against the Israeli Military would also be suicide. The loss of Palestinian civilians has been much higher than any loss of civilians in Israel.

Is their choice to lay down and let the Israeli's take over?

Both sides need to stop retaliating for attacks and start enforcing peace.
Slaughter by either side will never achieve either's needs.

#16 G1223

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:52 AM

Broker a Deal and stick to it .Hand over the terrorist or deal with them internally just as the IRA had to  to make peace in Ireland. This puts the Isrealies where they have to follow along with the agreement. There is pressure to stop the violence from both inside and outside the country.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#17 Ogami

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 07:37 AM

Well said, G1223. :)

#18 tennyson

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 07:58 AM

Until relatively recently organizations like the PLO did field what would be for some countries massive armies that included the usual small arms, RPGs, artillery rockets, surface to air missiles,armoured personnel carriers T-55 tanks and some naval craft.  PLO or PLO spinter organizations conducted naval raids on areas near Hafia well into the 1980s and BM-21 rocket attacks were a daily occurance across the northern border until the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. That was why Isreal invaded Lebanon in 1982 to destroy the bases and military strength that allowed the PLO to control large sections of Lebanon, just like the other factions. PLO and PLO affiliate organizations were conducting well planned and long range attacks on Isrealis since at least the early 1970s as the destruction at the 1972 Munich Olympic games can attest.
Then tactics changed after the occupation of Lebanon, and the tool of popular uprising and the first general uprising began in 1987, ending at best lightly armed citizens to stirup trouble and provoke a response s when one of the Israelis finally broke and struck back world opinion would turn against Isreal. Eventually this strategy led to the Oslo Accords and the establishment of the current situation with the Palestinians in control of several slices of territory. There was supposed to have been an effective Palestine police for that would stop  the remaining terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the PLO splinter groups that still don't want a settlement. This did not happen, due to actions on both sides and here we are, with large networks of groups guiding and training suicide bombers because they are more effecient and demoralizing than the terror tactics of the past and it goes on and on.
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#19 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 09:28 AM

Rhea, on Jun 12 2003, 03:10 PM, said:

And for my money, I believe the official story on the USS Liberty is the truth. Israel had no reason in the world to intentionally bomb the USS Liberty - there's no point to bombing your allies, any more than anyone starts out to kill fellow soldiers with friendly fire.
Agreed and the facts of the incident don’t support the conspiracy story.  The Israeli Military aircraft that attacked the Liberty were armed with air to mud ordnance.  This isn’t exactly the type of ordnance you load up with if your intention is to blow a vessel out of the water.  You can hurt her pretty bad but the chances of a killing shot are pretty low.
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#20 Enmar

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 09:37 AM

You wouldn't believe what I just stumbled across, just for you :)

Quote

The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on
the U.S. Navy Spy Ship" by A. Jay Cristol,
Brasseys Inc., 295 pages

This is a review from a serious newspaper:

With liberty and conspiracy for all

Quote

The basic facts are not in dispute: As tension between Israel and the Arab countries mounted in June 1967, an American spy ship equipped
with state-of-the-art electronic surveillance equipment was sent to the eastern Mediterranean to intercept and eavesdrop on military radio
communications. On June 8, the ship sailed east of El Arish, which had just been captured by the Israel Defense Forces, into an area bordering the territorial waters of Egypt. At two o'clock in the afternoon, it was attacked
by a pair of Israeli Air Force Mirages. A few minutes later another pair of fighter-bombers dropped Napalm bombs. Then navy torpedo boats
moved in and fired five rockets, one of which struck the prow of the ship. By the time it was over, 34 American soldiers were dead and 171 wounded. The "USS Liberty" had taken over 800 hits. The Israeli authorities immediately
informed the Americans that the ship had been mistaken for an Egyptian supply vessel, and the attack had been halted as soon as doubts arose
as to its identity.

Although 11 American and two Israeli investigating committees reached the conclusion that a tragic error had occurred, and Israel took full responsibility for the incident, there are parties in the United States and Britain who have continued to insist that Israel knew it was bombing an American ship and did so deliberately. They also say that Israeli and American authorities have
collaborated to cover up the truth and keep it from the public. Until today, authors, journalists, anti-Israeli (and sometimes anti-Semitic) organizations, pro-Arab groups and anti-establishment activists, among them former members of the ship's crew, have been manipulating the story to further their own agendas.

In the tradition of conspiracy stories born after traumas and catastrophes, citing previously hidden testimony that seemingly supports their version of events, a whole slew of motives has been invented to prove the attack was premeditated. For example, to keep the U.S. in the dark about Israel's plan to
attack the Golan Heights or manufacture nuclear weapons in Dimona; to hide evidence of a massacre of POWs in Sinai; to prevent the messages picked up by the ship from being transmitted to a third party; to conceal the fact that Israel was sending out false communications in the name of the Egyptian
leader, Abdul Nasser, and so on. The reasons given for the American willingness to cooperate with this cover-up also vary according to the interests of their inventors.


Quote

A. Jay Cristol, a retired captain, former U.S. Navy aviator and military attorney, and now a federal judge and expert in international naval law, set about exploring the "USS Liberty" affair in the most serious way possible: He
chose it as the subject of his Ph.D. at the University of Miami. The result is a
meticulously researched study that took 14 years to complete and is backed up by countless documents, protocols and photographs, not to mention interviews with some 500 officials in the U.S., Israel, Britain and Egypt.

Quote

Cristol concludes that the Liberty incident is a classic illustration of the tragic consequences of friendly forces not keeping their friends informed of their movements. It is a scenario that has recurred in all Israel's wars, where many casualties have been traced to "friendly fire."

The recent war in Iraq has shown that despite - and possibly because of - modern technology, mistaking one's comrades for the enemy still exacts a heavy toll. Will any of this change the minds of those who believe the "USS
Liberty" incident was a conspiracy? I doubt it.

Specific examples are provided in the text.

:wideeyed:

Enmar
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