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The Dark Side of Israels Actions

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#21 AnneZo

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 03:39 PM

Ogami, on Jun 12 2003, 02:43 PM, said:

Who said they were innocent? They started out as terrorists attacking the British Authority, who turned back WWII refugee ships at pain of death from their Palestinian territory (there was never any country named Palestine.)
Maybe that's because before the West stepped in to take away the Palestinian land, they didn't need it? It was their land, okay? They lived there. They'd lived there for generations. They were shoved out to make room for the Israelis. That's injustice, no matter how you slice it.


Quote

As soon as Israel was founded, they were attacked on all sides by their arab neighbors. Aside from a brief peace with Egypt and an even briefer peace with Yassir Arafat, Israel has been in a constant 50 year war. Atrocities happen, that's war.
Yes, that makes it all better.

Quote

Israel has been fighting a defensive war for its very existence, look at the map. Tell me how this tiny country is a threat to its neighbors.

Why don't we take a look at the comparative armaments of the countries in that region for a real analysis of where the power lies?

#22 tennyson

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:05 PM

Well, AnneZo, if you want me to provide one I can from as many sources as possible, but in the end it will show that Israel is both outnumbered and in a few cases outclassed by the armaments of thier nieighbors to a significant degree, especially if you count in Egypt( which along with Isreal recives about $2 billion a year in aid from Isreal). Isreal may have been forced to militarize thier society on a scale only matched by Switzerland or Sweden but numerically they are significantly behind and their country has a depth of 12 miles at its narrowest point, which means any invasion that penetrates very far will cut Isreal into pieces. They've dealt with the issue odf thier enemies numerical superiority by a combination of rigorous training in combined arms operations and superical technical capability as well as a large reserve system that if called upon would collapse the entire Isreali economy within roughly three weeks. But if you're willing to read it then I'm willing to post it, as well as the armed forces of Syria, Egypt and Jordan. Countries that have also sent or promised troops to attack Isreal in the past have included Libya, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Algeria and Morocco but most of them are in no position to be attacking anyone,would need help to get thier troops to Isreal now, or like Saidi Arabia have a rather heavy American presence on them. Which ones do you want me to detail?
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#23 G1223

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:51 PM

AnneZo, on Jun 13 2003, 04:43 AM, said:

Ogami, on Jun 12 2003, 02:43 PM, said:

Who said they were innocent? They started out as terrorists attacking the British Authority, who turned back WWII refugee ships at pain of death from their Palestinian territory (there was never any country named Palestine.)
Maybe that's because before the West stepped in to take away the Palestinian land, they didn't need it? It was their land, okay? They lived there. They'd lived there for generations. They were shoved out to make room for the Israelis. That's injustice, no matter how you slice it.


Quote

As soon as Israel was founded, they were attacked on all sides by their arab neighbors. Aside from a brief peace with Egypt and an even briefer peace with Yassir Arafat, Israel has been in a constant 50 year war. Atrocities happen, that's war.
Yes, that makes it all better.

Quote

Israel has been fighting a defensive war for its very existence, look at the map. Tell me how this tiny country is a threat to its neighbors.

Why don't we take a look at the comparative armaments of the countries in that region for a real analysis of where the power lies?
Then Annie you seem to me to be advocate killing all the jews for being there. They did not take the land it was given by the UN you remeber the UN. Folks around here keep holding them up as a becon to which we should always obey and support. Well it was their choice to but the jews from Europe who had been displaced after WW II

Isreal has stopped well short at a number of times at the request of the international community. I do not seem to remmeber news stories of Isreali troops placing womena dnchildren to the wall and killing them or going into  schools and doing the same thing,but I seem to rememebr over 20+ yrs of simular thing being done by these peace loving palestinians. Including this week a brave and heroic soldier of Palistine blowing himself up along with a bus full of people.
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#24 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 09:03 PM

Enmar, on Jun 12 2003, 03:41 PM, said:

You wouldn't believe what I just stumbled across, just for you :)

Quote

The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on
the U.S. Navy Spy Ship" by A. Jay Cristol,
Brasseys Inc., 295 pages

Thanks :)

But do you really think that the crewmen aboard the USS Liberty all lied about the attack?

See their website and read their story. The Israelis claim they attacked for only 3 minutes while the crewmen state they were under attack for over an hour.

I would tend to believe the men who were fired upon.

http://ussliberty.org
This web site is dedicated to the memory of thirty-four fine young men
who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty
against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel
During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship
USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and
motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

The attack has been a matter of controversy ever since. Survivors and many key government officials
including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was
no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the
survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.

Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir
and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so.
We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag.
The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic Museum,
Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the USS Liberty Images Archive.

Our commanding officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor
for conspicuous gallantry and intrepedity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty during the attack.
The Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest award our country can bestow.
To avoid embarrassing our attackers, Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor was presented in a quiet ceremony
in the Washington Navy Yard instead of in the White House by the President as is customary.

#25 rhuhne

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 09:15 PM

MEMORANDUM:

   From:  Admiral Thomas H. Moorer
  
   Subject: Attack  on the USS Liberty June 8, 1967

   Date:  June 8, 1997

I have never believed that the attack on the USS Liberty was
a case of mistaken identity. That is ridiculous. I have
flown over the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, thousands of
hours, searching for ships and identifying all types of
ships at sea. The Liberty was the ugliest, strangest looking
ship in the U.S. Navy. As a communications intelligence
ship, it was sprouting every kind of antenna. It looked like
a lobster with all those projections moving every which way.

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After
all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full
view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that
overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight
hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew
the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties
and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth
day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan
Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known
opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we
learned in advance of their plan, there would be a
tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and
Washington.

And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent
Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by
destroying the primary source of acquiring that information
the USS Liberty.   The result was a wanton sneak attack that
left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured.
What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that
they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence
that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public
outcry.

I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the
Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Up to the
point where the torpedo boats were sent in, you could
speculate on that point. You have to remember that the
Liberty  was an intelligence ship, not a fighting ship, and
its only defensive weapons were a pair of 50-caliber machine
guns both aft and on the forecastle. There was little the
men could do to fight off the air assault from Israeli jets
that pounded the Liberty with bombs, rockets, napalm and
machine gun fire for 25 minutes.

With the Liberty riddled with holes, fires burning, and
scores of casualties, three Israeli torpedo boats closed in
for the kill. The second of three torpedoes ripped through a
compartment at amidships, drowning 25 of the men in that
section. Then the torpedo boats closed to within 100 feet of
the Liberty to continue the attack with cannons and machine
guns, resulting in further casualties. It is telling, with
respect to whether total annihilation was the intent, that
the Liberty crew has reported that the torpedo boats'
machine guns also were turned on life rafts that were
deployed into the Mediterranean as well as those few on deck
that had escaped damage.

As we know now, if the rescue aircraft from U.S. carriers
had not been recalled, they would have arrived at the
Liberty before the torpedo attack, reducing the death toll
by 25. The torpedo boat commanders could not be certain that
Sixth Fleet aircraft were not on the way and this might have
led to their breaking off the attack after 40 minutes rather
than remaining to send the Liberty and its crew of 294 to
the bottom. Congress to this day has failed to hold formal
hearings for the record on the Liberty affair. This is
unprecedented and a national disgrace. I spent hours on the
Hill giving testimony after the USS Pueblo, a sister ship to
the Liberty, was seized by North Korea. I was asked every
imaginable question, including why a carrier in the area
failed to dispatch aircraft to aid the Pueblo. In the
Liberty case, fighters were put in the air not once, but
twice. They were ordered to stand down by Secretary of
Defense McNamara and President Johnson for reasons the
American public deserves to know.

The captain and crew of the Liberty, rather than being
widely acclaimed as the heroes they most certainly are, have
been silenced, ignored, honored belatedly and away from the
cameras, and denied a history that accurately reflects their
ordeal. I was appalled that six of the dead from the Liberty
lay under a tombstone at Arlington Cemetery that described
them as having "died in the eastern Mediterranean," as if
disease rather than Israeli intent had caused their deaths.
The Naval Academy failed to record the name of Lt. Stephen
Toth in Memorial Hall on the grounds that he had not been
killed in battle. I intervened and was able to reverse the
apparent idea that dying in a cowardly, one-sided attack
by a supposed ally is somehow not the same as being killed
by an avowed enemy.

Commander McGonagle's story is the stuff of naval tradition.
Badly wounded in the first air attack, lying on the deck and
losing blood, he refused any treatment that would take him
from his battle station on the bridge. He continued to
direct the ship's defense, the control of flooding and fire,
and by his own example inspired the survivors to heroic
efforts to save the ship. He did not relinquish his post
until hours later, after having directed the crippled ship's
navigation to a rendezvous with a U.S. destroyer and final
arrival in Malta.

I must have gone to the White House 15 times or more to
watch the President personally award the Congressional Medal
of Honor to Americans of special valor. So it irked the hell
out of me when McGonagle's ceremony was relegated to the
obscurity of the Washington Navy Yard and the medal was
presented by the Secretary of the Navy
. This was a
back-handed slap. Everyone else received their medal at the
White House. President Johnson must have been concerned
about the reaction of the Israeli lobby.

The Liberty Veterans Association deserves the encouragement
of everyone who wants the facts of the Liberty incident
revealed and proper homage paid to the men who lost their
lives, to their families, and to the survivors. I have
attended many of their reunions and am always impressed with
the cohesion of the Liberty family. They arrive in town with
their whole entourage grandmas, grandpas, grandchildren.
They promote the memory of the boys who were killed and I
respect them for that. They are mostly from small country
towns, probably a lot like Eufaula, Alabama, where I grew
up, and they represent the basic core of America that has
enabled us to be a superpower for so long. These are the
kind of people who will make certain that our liberty and
freedom survive if fighting is what it takes.

#26 rhuhne

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 01:23 AM

Anyways, I don't think the sailors on the Liberty had any reason to lie about the attack and their verson of the story may be the most valid.

There never was a Congressional investigation, which I believe is standard in these cases.
Why not? Why not now? Why were the aircraft called back? Why was the Captain given his Congressional Medal of Honor in a shipyard and not in a more formal ceremony with the President?

The point of this thread is to present another side than the poor, nobody likes us and anybody that disagrees with our actions is anti-Semite, stand.

I still haven't heard what the Palestinian military is made up of. Saying the PLO is/was their army would be like saying the militia movement in the US is our military and represents us.

#27 Enmar

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 01:31 AM

^
You know what, I'm not going to study this and try to prove to you this was an accident, because you don't seem to be interested in anything but keep telling us what the truth is.

My former post said:

Quote

Although 11 American and two Israeli investigating committees reached the conclusion that a tragic error had occurred, and Israel took full responsibility for the incident...

So there were several investigations. Doesn't sound like cover up to me. Some people think otherwise, fine. You can think so too if you want. But I'm not buying what some questionable website says (on behalf of a mysterious entity named "the sailors" ) over all those investigations. And I'm not buying the "reasons" for this conspiracy.
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#28 rhuhne

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 01:39 AM

Enmar, on Jun 13 2003, 07:35 AM, said:

^
You know what, I'm not going to study this and try to prove to you this was an accident, because you don't seem to be interested in anything but keep telling us what the truth is.
You're right. It would take quite a bit for me to believe it was an accident. The point is that despite there being said that there was something like 13 investigations, there was no Congressional investigation. The men of the USS Liberty(the ship attacked) have reported no involvement with any investigation beyond the initial board of inquiry.

But thank you for participating. Your input is valuable and appreciated.

#29 rhuhne

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 07:50 PM

One thing I want to make clear is that I don't believe that disagreeing with the policies and actions of Israel make one anti-Semetic, any more than I feel that disagreeing with the policies and actions of the United States makes one anti-American.

As far as the USS Liberty is concerned, the crew of the ship have not had their concerns resolved by a manner that is fitting of an assault on a US ship, perhaps they never will. I wish them the ability to put this behind them and an end to their torment.

Thank you to those who participated in this conversation.

I started this thread poorly and I apologize to anyone who felt it was an attack on Jews. It was meant to be an opportunity to present what I feel to be a neglected side of the story obscured by suicide bombers and terrorist attacks.

Edited by rhuhne, 14 June 2003 - 08:10 PM.


#30 Enmar

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 08:30 PM

rhuhne, on Jun 14 2003, 11:54 AM, said:

One thing I want to make clear is that I don't believe that disagreeing with the policies and actions of Israel make one anti-Semetic, any more than I feel that disagreeing with the policies and actions of the United States makes one anti-American.
Considering the fact the many Israelis disagree with Israel's policies becuse they care about Israel and its future, I think you're right :)
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#31 Ogami

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 11:20 PM

Rhuhne wrote:

One thing I want to make clear is that I don't believe that disagreeing with the policies and actions of Israel make one anti-Semetic, any more than I feel that disagreeing with the policies and actions of the United States makes one anti-American.

Quite right, and that is something I've seen crop up now and again. For example, a year or two ago an Israeli group didn't win the Eurovision music contest. There were articles attributing this to anti-semitism. It could be that, or it could be they weren't the best band. Not everything is anti-semitism, and it's as absurd to use that as a debating defense as it if for gay activists to call everyone who disagrees with them homophobic.

-Ogami



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