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US Threatens to move NATO HQ

US forign policy NATO

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#1 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 03:02 PM

US threatens to pull Nato HQ out of Belgium

Quote

Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, threatened to pull Nato's headquarters out of Brussels yesterday unless Belgium revoked a legislation giving its courts the power to prosecute foreigners for alleged war crimes committed anywhere in the world.

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"These suits are absurd. By passing this law, Belgium has turned its legal system into a platform for divisive politicised lawsuits against her Nato allies," he said. "For our part, we will have to seriously consider whether we can allow our civilian and military officials to come to Belgium.

"We will have to oppose all further spending for a Nato headquarters in Brussels until we know with certainty Belgium intends to be a hospitable place."

About time this is done considering some of the trumped up charges that the Belgium government allow to go through in their legal system.  If some safeguards are put into prevent that then maybe I'd say we should consider leaving the HQ in the present location but the best route is the dropping of these laws.  Maybe Belgium should first consider cleaning up the people in their own country who got their hands dirty in the Congo. I'd suggest that Warsaw is the perfect location for a new NATO HQ with how supportive Poland and Eastern Europe is of NATO.

Edited by Cait, 21 September 2012 - 04:22 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 03:06 PM

I'm happy to hear it.

The ICC is a joke; any country that participates is the punchline. There's no reason we can't relocate if Belgium insists on supporting such a politicized, useless system.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

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#3 Delvo

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 03:23 PM

Funny how everything the American government says to any other one, including stating policies that merely PROTECT Americans FROM those other countries, is a "threat" according to some writers...

#4 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 03:35 PM

Delvo, on Jun 14 2003, 09:24 PM, said:

Funny how everything the American government says to any other one, including stating policies that merely PROTECT Americans FROM those other countries, is a "threat" according to some writers...
That's an excellent point. If the UN wanted to move its building from New York, I doubt it would be characterized as the UN 'threatening' the US.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#5 bandit

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 01:24 AM

As i understand international law, untill now in order to be held accountable for war crimes your country had to ratify a treaty, correct?
if it was not made "Law" in the country that someone is serving then it cannot be a "crime"
and who elected belgum supreme court of united earth anyway? i missed that vote!

#6 Shaun

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 03:24 AM

Since I can't say it better:

http://www.counterpu...ff06142003.html

The US has been threatening to cut off aid to countries who refuse to sign an immunity agreement to exempt US citizens from being arrested and sent to the ICC. Bosnia and Slovenia being two of the most recent countries threatened by US bullying. Bosnia has signed, Slovenia have cut off negotiations:

http://www.guardian....,975476,00.html

Britain BTW is a signatory. Nice to know we're thought of as a punchline to a joke.  :glare:

Edited by Shaun, 16 June 2003 - 03:25 AM.

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#7 AnneZo

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 05:13 AM

I'd also like to point out that threatening to pick up your toys and go play somewhere else is a pretty drastic move, diplomatically. It closes down most avenues of compromise and creates an "all or nothing" situation. It's not something someone seriously in search of a workable compromise does until late in the the 11th hour.

This country seems more arrogant and idiotic every time Rumsfeld opens his mouth. I have to assume the Administration keeps sending him out because they approve of his ham-handed form of undiplomatic diplomacy, but it pains me to see international cooperation between the USofA and the rest of the Western world threatened by this kind of behavior.

Also, although I don't see anyone here discussing this, I'm more than a bit worried by the perception of those who pull Rumsfeld's strings that we have a significant amount to worry about in terms of being threatened with war crimes.  

Precisely what do Bush&Co know about potential charges that we should know?

#8 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:14 AM

Quote

Shaun: The US has been threatening to cut off aid to countries who refuse to sign an immunity agreement to exempt US citizens from being arrested and sent to the ICC.

I see no reason to pour resources and funding into countries that will spend the majority of its time being the international kangaroo court to beat the US.  We’ve already seen how blind international “justice” is with Belgium and their universal jurisdiction.  They can surely bring Tommy Franks up on charges but funny thing is they just can’t find those people who screwed up the Congo so badly many of who probably still reside in their country.  

The ultimate laugh is on those who think the ICC will be any better.

Quote

AnneZo:I'm more than a bit worried by the perception of those who pull Rumsfeld's strings that we have a significant amount to worry about in terms of being threatened with war crimes. Precisely what do Bush&Co know about potential charges that we should know? 

It’s what we haven’t done but others have claimed we have done that one has to worry about.  Of course the majority of the liberal media fails to report on the full details of the charges against Franks in Belgium Court.  In case you don’t know Franks is apparently responsible for an “attack” on a civilian bus that killed 10.  The US troops used an energy weapon in the attack.  I don’t see why they just don’t go totally off the loony cliff and claim we didn’t set our phasers to stun.  We have enough problems fitting a laser system large enough to stop a ICBM in boost phase in a 747.  

So apparently we now have a secret energy weapon that can vaporize an entire bus.  Welcome to the future of the ICC boys and girls another international laughing stock and a political club to beat the US with.  You don’t even need sensible claims when it comes to international “justice”.        


Iraqis Target Gen. Franks for War Crimes Trial

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• The attack on a civilian bus with an "energy weapon" in the town of al-Hillah, killing at least 10 passengers.
:crazy:

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 16 June 2003 - 09:28 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#9 Ogami

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:53 AM

The International Criminal Court, the Kyoto Accords, the French/German-led United Nations. These three organizations have one stated goal, attacking the United States for our prosperity and military excellence.

It'd be a conspiracy theory if the Europeans weren't so open about it.  :lol:  :lol:

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#10 Rov Judicata

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 04:16 PM

Quote

I'd also like to point out that threatening to pick up your toys and go play somewhere else is a pretty drastic move, diplomatically. It closes down most avenues of compromise and creates an "all or nothing" situation. It's not something someone seriously in search of a workable compromise does until late in the the 11th hour.

So… they can charge our citizens with anything for no reason and we're not supposed to respond?

Quote

This country seems more arrogant and idiotic every time Rumsfeld opens his mouth.

Would that be more or less arrogant than claiming legal jurisdiction over the whole world? I

Quote

Also, although I don't see anyone here discussing this, I'm more than a bit worried by the perception of those who pull Rumsfeld's strings that we have a significant amount to worry about in terms of being threatened with war crimes. 

No kangaroo court is worth recognizing. Or even existing.

Quote

Precisely what do Bush&Co know about potential charges that we should know?

They know their political enemies could bring up any BS they felt like for years upon years.




Quote

Britain BTW is a signatory. Nice to know we're thought of as a punchline to a joke

Britain is a valued ally, but I think their the UK's decision to sign is a terrible idea.

And weren't charges filed against Blair?

Frankly, after seeing how the Milocevic trial is going, I think international courts have a logn way to go…
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#11 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:17 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 16 2003, 05:17 AM, said:

Would that be more or less arrogant than claiming legal jurisdiction over the whole world?
I’m sure Belgium is the perfect country to have universal jurisdiction.  They have all the still free people who committed/helped to commit atrocities in Africa to hire as consultants…In other words you can add hypocritical to the list.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#12 Cauda

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:24 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 15 2003, 11:15 PM, said:

So apparently we now have a secret energy weapon that can vaporize an entire Bush.
:blink:
An enigma, wrapped up in a riddle, with a tail in the middle.

#13 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:27 PM

Cauda, on Jun 16 2003, 10:25 AM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 15 2003, 11:15 PM, said:

So apparently we now have a secret energy weapon that can vaporize an entire Bush.
:blink:
I hate MS Word and the spelling hijinks it does... *sigh*
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#14 Shaun

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 05:01 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 15 2003, 10:15 PM, said:

So apparently we now have a secret energy weapon that can vaporize an entire bus.  Welcome to the future of the ICC boys and girls another international laughing stock and a political club to beat the US with.  You don’t even need sensible claims when it comes to international “justice”.
Except that is simply not true. Having read the complaint against General Franks I can find no reference to the use of so-called 'energy' weapons.
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#15 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 08:52 AM

Shaun, on Jun 16 2003, 06:02 PM, said:

Except that is simply not true. Having read the complaint against General Franks I can find no reference to the use of so-called 'energy' weapons.
Care to provide the exact details and a link then.  Right now I’m taking the word of the Washington Times and backed it with citing the article. (They have yet to do a Guardian or NY Times).I’ve seen this report of energy weapons cited in several reports about the charges against Franks.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#16 Shaun

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 12:29 PM

^ I'll try to find a version in English.
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#17 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:00 PM

http://www.stopusa.b...tm#_Toc42088175

Thanks to Shaun.

I've read this thing.

No reference to an energy weapon that I can find.

And only one ref to a bus and nothing to do with an energy weapon.

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#18 Rhea

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:02 PM

Shaun, on Jun 16 2003, 11:02 AM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Jun 15 2003, 10:15 PM, said:

So apparently we now have a secret energy weapon that can vaporize an entire bus.  Welcome to the future of the ICC boys and girls another international laughing stock and a political club to beat the US with.  You don’t even need sensible claims when it comes to international “justice”.
Except that is simply not true. Having read the complaint against General Franks I can find no reference to the use of so-called 'energy' weapons.
The complaint specifically says it was a missile that hit the bus.-
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#19 Shaun

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:08 PM

This is the only English translation that I've been able to find:

http://www.stopusa.b.....20tot 1.4.htm

There's a reference to a bus being hit by a missile, but nothing else.

I asked Lil to scan through it in case I missed anything and she couldn't see any references either.
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#20 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:07 PM

Something funny is here.  The reference to the bus attack is a different number of people and a different town.  
Along with several other things not matching up between the earlier news stories and this translation.  I'm digging around for a slightly less biased source or at least a second reference and translation.

As for the rest of the case they have a very selective reading of International Law in many areas.  For example for one that jumps right out in regards to the issue of humanitarian protection to hospitals by stocking the hospitals with caches of small arms and garrisoning military personnel Iraq’s protections for their hospitals are null and void.  The Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War states “the protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy”.  As an added note for just about every complaint in this report there is a but built into it that invalidates the protection.  Somehow(no big surprise) the Iraqis did just about every violation that would strip protections during the war.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 17 June 2003 - 02:19 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE



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