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Young Wis. woman killed baby, hid body

Wisconsin Infanticide Crime

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#21 Bossy

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:20 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 17 2003, 12:08 PM, said:

Respectfully - before this turns into an unnecessary ideological war -
I disagree that preaching for or against abortion has anything to do with it.

The young woman is either psychologically disturbed or pathologically criminal or both.   She is a moral individual with the capability of discerning right from wrong no matter what ANYONE else preaches, and is fully capable of the basic human feeling to preserve life.  She committed this crime twice (or so it appears) - having time in between to have felt remorse and thought about other possible options... she did not, and if proven guilty, whatever fate befalls her, she deserves.

QT (who is rather annoyed by the impetus to remove personal responsibility from the equation)
I never said that this woman wasn't personally responsible. Ultimately, she is the one who decided not to care for her children and allowed them to die.

However, one cannot deny that society plays a role in peoples behavior. Our society has begun to devalue human life. Its okay to kill the preborn simply because the child is unwanted. Violent death as a form of entertainment. Assisted suicide is acceptable.

No, this doesn't make a person kill someone. However, it does lead to a climate where those who are already disturbed can more easliy justify such a terrible deed to themselves.

#22 Drew

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:23 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 17 2003, 12:09 PM, said:

I don't think she meant you, Drew...
She was agreeing with someone who quoted me. What else am I supposed to think?

Edited by Drew, 18 June 2003 - 04:24 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#23 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:26 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 17 2003, 09:20 AM, said:

This is not an pro or con abortion story at all.  If she didn't want an abortion she had the option to give the baby up for adoption.  She had months of carrying the child to come up with that as a solution.  If she didn't have any objections to abortion, she COULD have had one early in the pregnancy.  She clearly came up with a plan for both HAVING the child in secret and disposing of it in secret... where was her plan for preserving that life, or ending it legally?
Thank YOU :) And it would be ridiculous if she has objections to abortion, but decides its ok to let it die/kill it afterwards! Utterly ridiculous.

Edited by sierraleone, 18 June 2003 - 04:26 AM.

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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#4: Be outraged.
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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:26 AM

QT, correct, abortion is irrelevant.  And just to be clear I'm in no way attempting to absolve this woman.

bossy and Ogami  I was talking to Drew.

Okay Drew  just so I'm clear.

First you said:

Quote

I would take that a step further. According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make.

Now you say:

Quote

What I said was that the adoption option isn't stressed as much as it should be. The options stressed most often in this country are birth control, or if that doesn't work, abortion. I did not "blame abortion." Please read my post more carefully.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the word "adoption" does not appear in the first post.  Correct me if I'm wrong but in the first post you say:

"According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make." (emphasis added)

You're the wordsmith.  Tell me I didn't reasonably read the first post to be you blaming abortion.

At any rate, I agree with QT.  Abortion is irrelevant here.
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#25 Bossy

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:27 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 17 2003, 12:20 PM, said:

Further to my earlier statement... and further to point out the sheer irrelevance of the abortion issue to this topic...

Here is a woman who had the legal option to get an abortion, WHO, as the story goes, AFTER having given birth to, held, and then abandoned to die, her first child, CARRIED another child to term, gave birth, held, abandoned to die, her SECOND child.

Think about ALL the steps it took to commit this crime TWICE.

This is not an pro or con abortion story at all.  If she didn't want an abortion she had the option to give the baby up for adoption.  She had months of carrying the child to come up with that as a solution.  If she didn't have any objections to abortion, she COULD have had one early in the pregnancy.  She clearly came up with a plan for both HAVING the child in secret and disposing of it in secret... where was her plan for preserving that life, or ending it legally?

There is just no way to make me look at this and take ANY of the burden of responsibility away from her.

QT
I never said it was an agruement either for or against abortion. It points to a larger problem. Both the neglect of newborns to their deaths and the wide spread acceptance of abortion as a means of birth control are symptoms of a larger disease.

This counrty is gradually sinking to a place where human life is less and less valued and protected. We have lost sight of the fact that each of us is a unique person, created and loved by God. We have also denied the fact that each of us is ultimately responsible to Him for our actions. There are absolute standards of right and wrong. Society's job should be to uphold those standards, not find a way to justify what ever seems right in an indiviuals eyes.

#26 Bossy

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:29 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 17 2003, 12:27 PM, said:

QT, correct, abortion is irrelevant.  And just to be clear I'm in no way attempting to absolve this woman.

bossy and Ogami  I was talking to Drew.

Okay Drew  just so I'm clear.

First you said:

Quote

I would take that a step further. According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make.

Now you say:

Quote

What I said was that the adoption option isn't stressed as much as it should be. The options stressed most often in this country are birth control, or if that doesn't work, abortion. I did not "blame abortion." Please read my post more carefully.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the word "adoption" does not appear in the first post.  Correct me if I'm wrong but in the first post you say:

"According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make." (emphasis added)

You're the wordsmith.  Tell me I didn't reasonably read the first post to be you blaming abortion.

At any rate, I agree with QT.  Abortion is irrelevant here.

Lil, the first quote is mine. Not Drew's. Perhaps you should go back and read the entire portion of both our posts, since neither was completely quoted, and then you can pronounce what it is we exaclty said.  :sarcasm:

Edited by Bossy, 18 June 2003 - 04:31 AM.


#27 Drew

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:29 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 17 2003, 12:27 PM, said:

First you said:

Quote

I would take that a step further. According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make.



No, I didn't. Please go back and read my post. Initially Bossy had messed up the UBB code so it may have appeared that part of her response was attributed to me. She immediately fixed it.

You invited me to correct you if you were wrong. Consider yourself corrected.  :p

Edited by Drew, 18 June 2003 - 04:30 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#28 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:32 AM

:rolleyes: at self.

Sheesh Drew I honestly thought it was your quote.

My apologies.

Bossy I utterly disagree with you.  But I've already stated why so I don't think we need to derail this further.

Again Drew, I apologize, I honestly thought it was you who'd said that.

Lil
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#29 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:33 AM

Bossy, on Jun 17 2003, 09:28 AM, said:

This counrty is gradually sinking to a place where human life is less and less valued and protected. We have lost sight of the fact that each of us is a unique person, created and loved by God. We have also denied the fact that each of us is ultimately responsible to Him for our actions. There are absolute standards of right and wrong. Society's job should be to uphold those standards, not find a way to justify what ever seems right in an indiviuals eyes.
A prefect example of people differences of beliefs of absolute right and absolute wrong would be our threads on homosexuality :p :D Though I agree with you on the devaluing of life...  :(

Edited by sierraleone, 18 June 2003 - 04:33 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#30 QueenTiye

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:35 AM

Bossy... I'm not arguing with you.

I'm only stating that I don't think an abortion argument belongs HERE.

I don't disagree with your statements about the sanctity of life, and our moral responsibility to God.

What I'm saying is that we are each endowed with a certain degree of humanity that allows us to make moral choices - including the ability to feel guilt, that ultimately helps us find our way to God.

What I'm saying is that I don't think that any amount of talking for or against abortion changes our basic natures.  Even people who absolutely agree that they have a right to have an abortion deal with the emotional consequences of doing so.  

This woman came through this ordeal/crime once before - and nevertheless - did it again.  To me, that's the issue.

Editing because that didn't come out quite right - the whole darned thing is THE issue - I'm just outraged that she actually did this twice.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 18 June 2003 - 04:43 AM.

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#31 Ogami

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:39 AM

Lil wrote:

bossy and Ogami I was talking to Drew.

Okay Drew just so I'm clear.


Oh, my mistake. I had no idea you were addressing your comment about a male conservative to Drew. Sock it to him.  :wacko:

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#32 Drew

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:50 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 17 2003, 12:36 PM, said:

This woman came through this ordeal/crime once before - and nevertheless - did it again.  To me, that's the issue.
She's absolutely guilty.

But I think we're onto something here re: this culture's attitude toward life. And I'm not talking about abortion exclusively--though that's certainly a part of it. But our movies show violent death on a grand scale and call it "action/entertainment." Our video games enable us to mow down the opposition in an increasingly graphic manner. "Andromeda" gets a nod for being one of the most violent television shows, and Tribune's response is a big yawn. (Or worse, it's "death with quips" and violence becomes a source of humor.)

This can't be good for a culture.

Now, if she's found guilty of murder in Texas, she's probably going to end up on death row, and we'll have a media circus, and we'll have more death as entertainment.

"Why can't we just say no?"
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#33 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:53 AM

^ say no to what exactly? For all the things addressed in your post I can't figure it out. The death penalty? Violence on tv? Abortion? Sex?? (that leads to unplanned pregnancies)? *totally confuzzled* :)

Edited by sierraleone, 18 June 2003 - 04:54 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#34 Drew

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:03 AM

sierraleone, on Jun 17 2003, 12:54 PM, said:

^ say no to what exactly? For all the things addressed in your post I can't figure it out. The death penalty? Violence on tv? Abortion? Sex?? (that leads to unplanned pregnancies)? *totally confuzzled* :)
I mean that it seems we have let things drift this direction without stopping to think "Hey, is this such a good idea?" Take the ultra-violent video games, for example. Someone, somewhere, thought it was perfectly acceptable to allow players to kill others with a massive array of bloody violence. Did anyone working for these software companies ever speak up and say "Hey, maybe we're crossing a line. Maybe we don't need to be so graphic." Perhaps. But in the final analysis, the software company decided it was better to have money than have a conscience.

"Why can't we just say no" was a lyric from an old Mark Heard tune that popped into my head.

Edited by Drew, 18 June 2003 - 05:04 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#35 Ogami

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:03 AM

SierraLeone wrote:

say no to what exactly?

I can't picture that as a Nancy Reagan campaign. Just say no to putting your children in jars? (yeck)

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#36 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:07 AM

^ I forgot about that, but I certainly didn't mean it should be acceptable to kill infants and/or put them in jars :p :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#37 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:12 AM

Drew, on Jun 17 2003, 10:04 AM, said:

sierraleone, on Jun 17 2003, 12:54 PM, said:

^ say no to what exactly? For all the things addressed in your post I can't figure it out. The death penalty? Violence on tv? Abortion? Sex?? (that leads to unplanned pregnancies)? *totally confuzzled* :)
I mean that it seems we have let things drift this direction without stopping to think "Hey, is this such a good idea?" Take the ultra-violent video games, for example. Someone, somewhere, thought it was perfectly acceptable to allow players to kill others with a massive array of bloody violence. Did anyone working for these software companies ever speak up and say "Hey, maybe we're crossing a line. Maybe we don't need to be so graphic." Perhaps. But in the final analysis, the software company decided it was better to have money than have a conscience.

"Why can't we just say no" was a lyric from an old Mark Heard tune that popped into my head.
Thanks Drew for explaning that. I"ve never heard that song though. Buisnesses aren't exactly know to use a moral compass, if they have one  :sarcasm: The public has to say something to counteract things they disagree with. The only success we've had I suppose though is the ratings systems on tv shows, movies, and games. I don't think graphic things are so bad as much as they are shown about so cavalier...  :wacko:  it seems to have little/no impact on the characters. If its not important to the story somehow, it certainly doesn't need to be so graphic and focused on.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#38 QueenTiye

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:16 AM

Drew, on Jun 17 2003, 02:04 PM, said:

sierraleone, on Jun 17 2003, 12:54 PM, said:

^ say no to what exactly? For all the things addressed in your post I can't figure it out. The death penalty? Violence on tv? Abortion? Sex?? (that leads to unplanned pregnancies)? *totally confuzzled* :)
I mean that it seems we have let things drift this direction without stopping to think "Hey, is this such a good idea?" Take the ultra-violent video games, for example. Someone, somewhere, thought it was perfectly acceptable to allow players to kill others with a massive array of bloody violence. Did anyone working for these software companies ever speak up and say "Hey, maybe we're crossing a line. Maybe we don't need to be so graphic." Perhaps. But in the final analysis, the software company decided it was better to have money than have a conscience.

"Why can't we just say no" was a lyric from an old Mark Heard tune that popped into my head.
My question there persists in being WHY DO these games make money?

In regard to the erosion of concern for life - I really question where it comes from.  Why does ANYONE think it's fun to play these games?  Why do parents buy them for kids?

In the review section is a discussion of Grand Auto Theft - a popular video game.

For a little while, I lived in Newark New Jersey, which had the dubious distinction of being the auto theft capital of the world.  And because I was in a position to be working with youth - I actually knew some kids who had been quite accustomed to stealing cars, including outracing the police, etc.  Who came up with the idea of glorifying this?  I was quite upset when I first heard of it a year or so back.  And who thought it was acceptable to let their children play a game in which they are on the WRONG side of the law? Know who?  Regular everyday people.  So where does the erosion come from, really?

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#39 Ogami

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:20 AM

Queen Tiye wrote:

For a little while, I lived in Newark New Jersey, which had the dubious distinction of being the auto theft capital of the world. And because I was in a position to be working with youth - I actually knew some kids who had been quite accustomed to stealing cars, including outracing the police, etc. Who came up with the idea of glorifying this? I was quite upset when I first heard of it a year or so back. And who thought it was acceptable to let their children play a game in which they are on the WRONG side of the law? Know who? Regular everyday people. So where does the erosion come from, really?

The erosion comes from parents who don't note the "M for Mature" rating on every box of Grand Theft Auto. My brother and I play it, and we're both adults. There's no reason for a parent to buy this game for a child, though.

If the children are already jacking cars though, it might not matter what games they play if they do that in real life already.

-Ogami

#40 Cardie

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 05:33 AM

This woman is obviously a complete psycopath, but I've not noticed that the number of such incidents is on the rise or that they are primarily to be attributed to changing social values. I remember when these stories would be reported during my youth, and feminists would argue that if young women had better access to contraception, or if abortion were legal, we wouldn't have these specific tragedies. Now we have amnesties and safe drop points at hospitals, and still the incidents continue. I believe in most of these cases you have a young woman who gets pregnant by accident, does not want the child, and deals with it by going deep into denial, perhaps convincing even herself that she's not really pregnant. When the baby shows up, it is then denied by being thrown out with the trash. I'm not sure that anything about the culture's prevailing values can prevent this from happening if the mother-to-be gets herself into this psychological state, although I don't have figures and perhaps things are worse now.

When I was younger, I used to blame infanticide on the example of people who abandoned litters of kittens at the dump or drowned sacks full of puppies.  There are all sorts of ways that human behavior can be influenced.

Cardie
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