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Young Wis. woman killed baby, hid body

Wisconsin Infanticide Crime

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#81 QueenTiye

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 03:04 AM

Develop lots of patience Drew!  Wait till you see what she's like AFTER the baby is born!

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#82 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 03:14 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 18 2003, 09:05 AM, said:

Develop lots of patience Drew!  Wait till you see what she's like AFTER the baby is born!
My opinion has always been this:

The mood swings and hormone fluctuations and daily changing opinions during pregnancy are merely practice for when your child becomes a teenager. ;)

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#83 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 03:29 AM

^^^ :D :D :D
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#84 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 03:50 AM

Drew, on Jun 18 2003, 08:02 AM, said:

I think another, perhaps obvious reason why adoption isn't a first consideration is that adoption means you'll be carrying that baby for nine months, and then surrendering her. If my wife is any indication, fluctuating hormones make rational thought a rare commodity during the first trimester. I don't know how any woman experiencing that can make such a major decision either to abort or to carry and then surrender the child.

I've learned that what my wife tells me one day may be completely invalidated by the following day. I hope this passes soon!  :crazy:
I'd suggest not telling her that you don't know how pregnant woman can make rational decisions  ;)  :D

Edited by sierraleone, 19 June 2003 - 03:50 AM.

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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
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#85 Cardie

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:11 AM

If we're talking about why women might choose abortion over adoption, rather than why adoption is not emphasized more in the culture, well, if you don't want to keep the baby and don't feel that early termination of pregnancy is murder, going through those nine months with the same result--you don't have a baby to raise--asks the woman to endure quite a lot.  I don't want to get into some argument about selfish women putting their own convenience ahead of another life, but in fact it takes a lot of commitment and sacrifice to carry a baby to term and then give it up. Young girls who chafe at school dress codes may not have minds that work that way.

Cardie

p.s. I just saw on the CNN crawl that the Wisconsin mother has been charged with "reckless homicide." That seems an odd charge--it's usually what you get for killing someone by driving drunk or throwing boulders off interstate overpasses.

Edited by Cardie, 19 June 2003 - 04:13 AM.

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#86 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:17 AM

^ I hope you aren't refering to me  :)

A question I keep forgetting to ask, is why shes probably going to get 70 years for the first discovery alone? Not that I don't think what she did was excusible, or not worth a lot of time in prison, but I was just under the impression murder usually got less. Heck, I though everything got less. Or maybe its her state?

Edited by sierraleone, 19 June 2003 - 04:18 AM.

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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#87 Bossy

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:56 AM

sierraleone, on Jun 18 2003, 11:51 AM, said:

Drew, on Jun 18 2003, 08:02 AM, said:

I think another, perhaps obvious reason why adoption isn't a first consideration is that adoption means you'll be carrying that baby for nine months, and then surrendering her. If my wife is any indication, fluctuating hormones make rational thought a rare commodity during the first trimester. I don't know how any woman experiencing that can make such a major decision either to abort or to carry and then surrender the child.

I've learned that what my wife tells me one day may be completely invalidated by the following day. I hope this passes soon! :crazy:
I'd suggest not telling her that you don't know how pregnant woman can make rational decisions  ;)  :D
[Yoda]To Sierra listen you should.[/Yoda]

This is probably one of the best pieces of advise you are every going to receive Drew. ;)


#88 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:58 AM

^LOL

I'm wondering if she is also a board member :D :D :D
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#89 Bossy

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 05:01 AM

Cardie, on Jun 18 2003, 12:12 PM, said:

If we're talking about why women might choose abortion over adoption, rather than why adoption is not emphasized more in the culture, well, if you don't want to keep the baby and don't feel that early termination of pregnancy is murder, going through those nine months with the same result--you don't have a baby to raise--asks the woman to endure quite a lot.  I don't want to get into some argument about selfish women putting their own convenience ahead of another life, but in fact it takes a lot of commitment and sacrifice to carry a baby to term and then give it up. Young girls who chafe at school dress codes may not have minds that work that way.

Cardie

I think Drew's question was why isn't adoption more emphasized in our culture. I know that's what I was thinking.

Quote

p.s. I just saw on the CNN crawl that the Wisconsin mother has been charged with "reckless homicide." That seems an odd charge--it's usually what you get for killing someone by driving drunk or throwing boulders off interstate overpasses.
Well, she didn't sufficate the babies or anything like that. She murdered them through negelecting to care for them. I suppose that's why they chose reckless homicide. I can see that at least for the first baby. They might have trouble making a case for the murder being premeditated, I suppose. However, I can't see that being the case for the second baby.

Edited by Bossy, 19 June 2003 - 05:02 AM.


#90 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 05:03 AM

sierraleone, on Jun 18 2003, 12:59 PM, said:

I'm wondering if she is also a board member :D :D :D
Nope, but she readily admits to the irrationality. She's got a good sense of humor about it.

I guess I do, too.  :cool:

Heck, I HAVE to.
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#91 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 05:05 AM

^ lol You do have to, unless you want to go insane, and be about as rational as you say shes being :D And I'm sure there are times when she doesn't have as good humour about it ;) *g*

Edited by sierraleone, 19 June 2003 - 05:05 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#92 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 11:39 AM

I thought this belong here, more than the other thread (on the rapist in Mexico), so I'm putting it here.

Quote

Bossy Posted on Jun 18 2003, 12:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's one issue that I have with our justice system. There doesn't seem to be much consistancy in the sentances handed down. One man who rapes three women may receive 30 yrs and prison and another 120 yrs. While at the same time, a woman who murders two infants gets 70 yrs.

I think that there may be alot of truth to the accusations that your status, color, or sex may play a role in the verdict or sentance for your crime.

Not even so much in the infanticide case is it gender, I think. Well perhaps part. I think its the idea of the holy role of mother-hood, that she so obvious wasn't living up to... Just one angle I'm looking at that from. Shes a kind of "high profile deviant" not because of her class, but because she did this horrible act as a mother, against her children.

*sighs at an interuption* I hate having to gather up my thoughts after being harrased for the computer :p :D Now everythings going to sound wrong, because my thoughts on making this coherent, and , er, etc, are gone :p :)

I think the idea/ideal of motherhood is both put on a pedestool (and thinking it should be the ultimate goal of all/most woman), while at the same time, in reality, isn't respected nearly as much as it should be. But some people, such as this woman, obviously shouldn't be mothers. Not that I don't think that woman shouldn't be punished... if anything she should be punished for mere stupidity in not, after another pregnancy, thinking of using birth control of some sort, or thinking of *some* option, other than neglecting the child to death.

Anything sensationalist seems to garner larger sentences  :rolleyes:

Like a mother killing her children. As horrible as it is, not saying it isn't. But just because its a sensationalist case doesn't mean it should have a much much larger sentence. Why are other people that do the same thing get much smaller sentences?

*reads over her replies and sighs. Decides to leave it as it is, can't think co-herentingly with all these harrasers anyways :p  :blush: )

Edited by sierraleone, 19 June 2003 - 11:51 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#93 Rhea

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 12:12 PM

Bossy, on Jun 17 2003, 09:46 AM, said:

I would take that a step further. According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make.

I know, that's not particularly logical or rational. However, the people who do such thinks aren't really what I would call logical or rational.
I read your quote exactly right, Bossy. I just don't agree.

I won't yell this time, but I repeat: in this country we do *not* kill babies just before they're born. You can't get an abortion after the first trimester in most states except under very unusual circumstances (the mother is going to die if she carries the baby to term, the baby will be born minus a brain - ancephalic - or other complications that basically mean you'll get a mass of breathing flesh who'll never function or be alive on his or her own at all).

I actually heard anti-abortionists in an audience once tell a woman who was six months pregnant with a child who might survive, but on machines for the remainder of the baby's short life, that she would be commiting murder if she had an abortion. Hello? What kind of sick person would expect a woman to carry a fetus with *no brain at all* to term on the grounds that it would be murder to have an abortion?

Edited by Rhea, 19 June 2003 - 12:16 PM.

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#94 Bossy

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:32 PM

Rhea, on Jun 18 2003, 08:13 PM, said:

Bossy, on Jun 17 2003, 09:46 AM, said:

I would take that a step further. According to a large portion of our society, abortion is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. So, if its alright to kill a baby just before its born, its alright to kill a baby just after its born. What difference does a couple of days make.

I know, that's not particularly logical or rational. However, the people who do such thinks aren't really what I would call logical or rational.
I read your quote exactly right, Bossy. I just don't agree.

I won't yell this time, but I repeat: in this country we do *not* kill babies just before they're born. You can't get an abortion after the first trimester in most states except under very unusual circumstances (the mother is going to die if she carries the baby to term, the baby will be born minus a brain - ancephalic - or other complications that basically mean you'll get a mass of breathing flesh who'll never function or be alive on his or her own at all).

I actually heard anti-abortionists in an audience once tell a woman who was six months pregnant with a child who might survive, but on machines for the remainder of the baby's short life, that she would be commiting murder if she had an abortion. Hello? What kind of sick person would expect a woman to carry a fetus with *no brain at all* to term on the grounds that it would be murder to have an abortion?
Okay, I still don't think you understand what I was saying. I was not saying that abortions performed right up to birth. What I was saying is that its a common misconception, and that the already disturbed mind could use such an arguement as justification for her actions. I admit that this was a long stretch. It was my reaction to the woman's statement that the baby had to die because she couldn't take care of it, a reason that is often said to be why a woman may be seeking an abortion.

Now, just an personal bit ancephalic babies and abortion. A woman my mom and I work with had the standard ultrasound. She was told that her baby had no brain and was counceled to have an abortion. Her and her husband were devistated. They decided, as a matter of faith, not to have an abortion. It turns out that there was nothing wrong with her baby. She gave birth to a healthy child. Now, I am not saying that aborting a fetus who has no brain is murder. Obviously, a body without a brain isn't a person. All I am saying is that it would be an area that should invoke caution and multiple verifications,

#95 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 12:41 AM

Bossy, on Jun 19 2003, 12:33 AM, said:

A woman my mom and I work with had the standard ultrasound. She was told that her baby had no brain and was counceled to have an abortion.
Not uncommon. Physicians will recommend a whole slew of tests so you can find out if there will be any defects and then abort your child if any of them come back positive. (And false-positives are not at all uncommon with these tests.) I think telling a woman that she should have an abortion because of a suspected defect is totally out of bounds for medical professionals.
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#96 Anakam

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:03 PM

^
I have to admit I'm not especially surprised by it, though I think it's on the unethical side.  It goes right along with (IMO) a number of other things I've seen from doctors, though not usually my regular one.  Suggesting strong medication when there are alternatives that are fairly easy to find, for example, or dismissing patient's problems when *they* (the doctor) can't find something 'actually wrong'.  Yes, I know that happens quite a bit because I've heard about it quite a bit, but I've seen it more recently.  :wacko:  It might be a mixture of being proactive and yet not wanting to take a lot of time for any potential problem so they can go on to the next patient, but I'm sure that's a whole different thread.
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