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"Roe" wants Roe v. Wade reversed

Roe Vs. Wade Abortion

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#21 Rhea

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 12:26 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 17 2003, 02:17 PM, said:

This is old news.

And it's easy for her to moralize now that she's not in the difficult position that lead to the decision in the first place.

Lil (whew.  I just realized that there is ZERO chance of me discussing this issue in a rational manner so I'm not going to.)
What Lil said.  :glare:
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#22 Ishmael Autolycus

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 01:06 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 17 2003, 04:57 PM, said:

I will say one thing.

I've read Roe v. Wade.  It's an appallingly badly reasoned decision, relying on a right to privacy that simply does not exist in the United States Constitution.
Lil, I agree with you about Roe v. Wade being a badly reasoned decision in and of itself, but I believe the whole "right to privacy" issue is considered to be the subtext that underlies the Bill of Rights. The Ninth Amendment* also figures into the development of the right to privacy as well.

As for abortion itself, I'm pro-choice, but I'm also male, so I think I'll just keep my mouth shut.

*The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
      --U.S. Constitution, Amendment 9
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On your imaginary forces work.

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#23 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 03:30 PM

Chipper, on Jun 17 2003, 05:25 PM, said:

Could someone enlighten me on Roe vs. Wade?

I wasn't alive back then, and haven't really studied it in school at all.

As for abortion itself...I have no idea what stance I personally have.
I'll second that. A link maybe?

Whats a carnival barker anyways???

Edited by sierraleone, 18 June 2003 - 03:32 PM.

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#24 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 03:51 PM

Anyone who doesn't think a medical procedures has potential drawbacks/problems associated with them, is really thick :p Though this is of a slightly different nature than most medical procedures I'll admit (unless you strictly stick with evidence of increased chances of certain cancers, etc, but that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about). But if you didn't think you'd have regret, you didn't think about your decision enough I think.
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#25 sierraleone

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:06 PM

Actually Roe v. Wade didn't give women the right to have an abortion anyways... at least not in regards to me... Though it might have lead the way.  :blink: *wonders what, why and when abortion was made legal in Canada* Though still curious about Roe v. Wade. (who was Wade??)

Edit: looks back at the tail end of the thread... *I'm becoming that hyper kind of bored/tired were I talk incessantly... Looks like a flock of bunnies coming through  :blink: ... beware the bunnies  ;) *
*sierra decides to finally go to bed* ;) :D  :blush:

Edited by sierraleone, 18 June 2003 - 06:01 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#26 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 10:17 PM

Chipper, on Jun 18 2003, 01:25 AM, said:

Could someone enlighten me on Roe vs. Wade?
http://womensissues....ntkroevwade.htm

Quote

Issue:

Roe vs. Wade

History:

"Jane Roe" (whose real name was Norma McCorvey) was a woman who challenged the criminal abortion laws in Texas.  These laws forbade abortion except in cases where the mother's life was in danger; claiming they were unconstitutional.

Henry Wade was the Texas Attorney General who defended the anti-abortion law.

Dates Argued: December 13, 1971 and October 11, 1972
Opinion Date: January 22, 1973

Sarah Weddington argued the cause for Roe twice. Jay Floyd argued the cause for Texas in the first argument. Robert C. Flowers argued the cause for Texas in the second argument.

The conclusion held that a woman's right to an abortion falls within the right to privacy protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. The decision gave women the right to abortion during her entire pregnancy and defined different levels of state interest for regulating abortion in the second and third trimesters.

The vote was:

Majority: Blackmun(for the Court), Brennan, Powell, Marshall T.
Concurring: Burger, Douglas, Stewart
Dissenting: Rehnquist, White B.

Status:

Currently an estimated 1,365,000 million women receive abortions in America annually.  Approximately 40 million abortions have been performed since 1973.  The number of deaths per 100,000 legal abortion procedures declined five-fold between 1973 and 1991.

My personal position on abortion- pro-life.

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 19 June 2003 - 02:36 AM.

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#27 Broph

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 10:48 PM

G1223, on Jun 17 2003, 09:18 PM, said:

Everything in this world has negative effects.That said I do not feel it right to force someone else to live with a circumstance that they do not want to have to deal with.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.

Aren't you forcing the fetus to accept the decision of the mother?

What about if they don't have the abortion - are you possibly forcing the father to accept the responsibility of fatherhood, child support payments, etc.? If a woman has a right to have an abortion, but doesn't have one, shouldn't the father have a right to a "financial abortion" (I just don't know of any good way of wording that - sorry for any offense).

I think that legalized abortion is better than a situation with back-alley abortions that will be done in a country where it's illegal. However, when a woman says that it's her body and her life so it's her decision, she really is affecting other people's lives and bodies with that one decision - and those others don't have a say in the issue.

#28 Broph

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 10:55 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 17 2003, 09:17 PM, said:

And it's easy for her to moralize now that she's not in the difficult position that lead to the decision in the first place.
With all due respect, isn't that the same argument that women often give men on the issue - that since we would never have to go through it physically, that we shouldn't have any right to say that it should or shouldn't happen? I also don't know that what she is saying refers to morals - if she is saying that there are definite risks to the mother, isn't that a matter of health and safety?

As far as the "difficult position that lead to the decision in the first place", would that be the missionary position (not trying to make light of your wording - I'm just saying that pregnancies don't just "happen")? I am not against legalized abortions; however, if you're old enough to be 1) making decisions about abortions and 2) having sex in the first place, you have to take responsibility for your life and your actions. Those actions have consequences - sometimes those consequences include a baby.

Definitely a complicated topic.

#29 Shalamar

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 11:59 PM

Yes it is a complicated topic, and one that stems from an even hotter and more nebulous one...


C
A
U
T
I
O
N




When does a fetus become a ..person..a individual being with it's own rights...

I'll be very honest and say that I make mention of this with great trepedation, and a part of me  hopes that no one replies to this.

But it is the root of the whole debate, and deserves open discussion.

My thoughts, and they are purely my thoughts...

I feel that the determining point is when the infant can survive outside the womb....

I am woman who has had an abortion...and I am willing to tell why I had an abortion. I have inherited gentic disseases, and the chances that any child I had of having those  were high. I know what I have had to deal with. I would not risk passing it on, and never intended to. I was not supposed to be able to get pregnant, but I did. I sought counciling and after thinking long and hard, made my choice....

#30 Ogami

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:00 AM

Dr. Carl Sagan and his wife wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times about a decade ago, giving the "scientific" view of the abortion debate, for what it's worth. They decided that the cutoff point for an abortion should be just before that time when the brain stem is formed. That's when a person's consciousness begins. Life begins at conception, but a person becomes a person at this point.

As it so happens, that time is roughly the same as the current cutoff date for an abortion as defined in Roe V Wade. I happen to agree with their assessment, that's why I consider abortion a necessary evil. Emphasis on "necessary" and "evil". It's just something we have to put up with as a society, but that doesn't mean we should celebrate it. Or encourage more of it.

Abortion, as President Clinton memorably described in his 1992 campaign, should be "safe, legal, and rare". That last word is what gets us conservatives, because abortion isn't rare. It's often the first choice of contraception, and that is deadly wrong for us as a society. Abortion should be the last resort, not the first resort of convenience. And that's what the vast majority of abortions are carried out for, not rape or medical reasons. Convenience. And that is absolutely evil.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 19 June 2003 - 01:00 AM.


#31 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:07 AM

Thanks, Shal, for reminding everyone that these decisions are not always so cavalier. It's very important, especially for those of us who are pro-life, to remember that each situation is unique.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#32 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:09 AM

Quote

It's often the first choice of contraception . . .

Er, . . . I don't think you thought through your word choice there. I don't believe it's ever a "first choice" for contraception.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#33 G1223

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:12 AM

Broph, on Jun 18 2003, 11:49 AM, said:

Aren't you forcing the fetus to accept the decision of the mother?
Mom a avid skydiver decieds to continue to skydive  the fetus has to accept the risk. Mom decides to do any potential hazardious activity legallly or not and the Fetus is having to accept the risk,or becasue she might be pregnant she suddenly loses the right to make decisiions about about her body?

I do not understand where a group of 40-70+year old males get the right to make decisions about a womans reproductive rights? Broph you seem to be saying that we must give to a a group of cells whcih have no organs or defined shape the same rights a baby which forms really in the second trimister.

Yes the abortion laws we currently have are a compromise they work becasue we have folks who see past the political b*llsh*t and see a woman maybe like Shal needing the choice to have a baby or not. With that in mind what do a bunch of fossilized old men in congress or any state legislator really have to do with process?

Edited by G1223, 19 June 2003 - 02:23 AM.

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#34 Broph

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:24 AM

^There's a huge difference between doing something risky (crossing the street can be risky) and making a decision to terminate what may be another life.

I do, however, think that someone who is far along in pregnancy may want to avoid known risks - 3 Massachusetts women who were 8 months pregnant sued the city so they would stay on active car patrols rather than accept desk duty for their last month of pregnancy. But that's another topic.

#35 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:28 AM

G1223, on Jun 18 2003, 10:13 AM, said:

I do not understand where a group of 40-70+year old males get the right to make decisions about a womans reproductive rights?
What group, exactly, are you referring to?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#36 sierraleone

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:29 AM

^ I think he means people who use it without using any other birth control, in which case it becomes a sort of "first coice"

opps, came in a little late. Responding to Drew's

Quote

Er, . . . I don't think you thought through your word choice there. I don't believe it's ever a "first choice" for contraception.


And TT, what did that ebay link have to do wit anything???  :D

Edited by sierraleone, 19 June 2003 - 02:31 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#37 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:37 AM

Woops!

A sad day indeed when I can't even cut and paste.  :(
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#38 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:39 AM

Quote

Broph you seem to be saying that we must give to a a group of cells whcih have no organs or defined shape the same rights a baby which forms really in the second trimister.

I got a nice look at my baby at about 8 weeks after conception. Arms and legs were clearly visible on the ultrasound. His/Her heart was beating, and he was hopping around inside my wife's womb quite a bit. At 8 weeks, while still in the first trimester, the baby was anything but a "group of cells which have no organs or defined shape."
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#39 G1223

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:46 AM

I was going with a friends wifes descirption of her child at the four week mark but I see your point Drew.
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#40 Drew

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:52 AM

Well, that's one of the reasons for this review. Medical advances have allowed us to know much more about the development of the fetus than we knew at the time of Roe v. Wade. We also know a lot more about the effects of an abortion on the woman. As sierraleone pointed out, there seems to be a correlation between abortion and breast cancer. This also wasn't known at the time. For these reasons and others, they are asking for Roe v. Wade to be reconsidered.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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