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Riots in Michigan?

Michigan Racial Profiling Riots

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 12:47 PM

http://straitstimes....,195479,00.html

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Racial riots break out in Michigan
BENTON HARBOUR - A state of emergency was declared in Michigan yesterday after two nights of racial riots in which several buildings and cars were set on fire.

A hospital spokesman said 10 people were injured in Tuesday night's violence - a reaction to a high-speed police chase on Monday in which a motorcyclist crashed and died, CNN reported.

Early yesterday, police told reporters the protests were getting worse and the authorities were planning to impose a town curfew.

Michigan's governor declared a state of emergency, which allows for the activation of Michigan National Guard troops if needed.

The rioters shot one person in the shoulder and beat and stabbed others, and set at least five buildings and five cars on fire, police said.

About 150 state troopers and 100 other police officers used tear gas and other non-lethal methods to quell the violence.

'We're basically predominantly a black community,' police chief Samuel Harris said on ABC television.

'Many of our police officers are white but I seldom have complaints of a racial nature.'

Resident Dorothy King said: 'It looks like a war zone. It's terrible.'

The motorcyclist, Terrance Shurn, 28, who died was black and the officers who chased him were white. -- AP

Am I the only one who finds this inexpliciable?

"That guy killed himself! Let's have a riot!"
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#2 Nikcara

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:22 PM

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'We're basically predominantly a black community,' police chief Samuel Harris said on ABC television.

'Many of our police officers are white but I seldom have complaints of a racial nature.

That sounds like someone's who's oblivious.  If there were no racial tensions before, then there wouldn't be this riot.  People tend not to riot over a motorcycle crash.  Otherwise all the major cities would constantly be rioting....
the crash was probably just the spark that started it all

Then again, I don't know Michigan too well...
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#3 Eclipse

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:26 PM

:(

Apparantly it is the Michigan police's duty to chase down
and administer a ticket to all speeders, no matter the cost.

#4 bandit

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:48 PM

it was the man's choice to speed.
I think that this is totally uncalled for, given what i have read.

#5 Anakam

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:53 PM

Nikcara, on Jun 19 2003, 03:23 AM, said:

Then again, I don't know Michigan too well...
It's my home state, and I do know that Detroit has had some rather impressive rioting, especially race-related, in the past.  I can't remember much about Benton Harbor, though--it's not one of the areas I'm most familiar with.  *sigh*  There clearly is some kind of underlying tension and riots bite, BTW... I'm surprised that we don't hear more about motorcyclists being killed during high-speed chases. :Oo:
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#6 rhuhne

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:54 PM

The article doesn't say why the guy was being chased but apparently the locals think it is a case of racial profiling.

Or at least without knowing all the facts that's the best guess I got.

#7 rhuhne

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:56 PM

However, I think the best way to get revenge is to destroy my own neighborhood. :blink:

#8 Anakam

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:13 PM

bandit, on Jun 19 2003, 03:49 AM, said:

it was the man's choice to speed.
I think that this is totally uncalled for, given what i have read.
Agreed!  But unfortunately whatever triggers riots doesn't recognize logic. :(

And Eclipse? :p :p :p
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#9 QueenTiye

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 05:31 PM

the perception of heavy-handed, overexcessive tactics by the police in black neighborhoods has long been a source of seething tensions in many cities.  If this was reported as something that was preventable, or if there was any irregularity in the chase (racial profiling, or some other) it could very well have been the trigger for a riot - which, btw - is not about destroying ones neighborhood, but about emotional timebombs going off wherever they happen to go off.

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#10 MuseZack

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:04 AM

What's the problem?  Riots and looting are just people expressing their freedom!  At least, that's what Rumsfeld and Fleischer said when it happened in Baghdad.  Well, maybe it is a little "untidy," but still...


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#11 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:46 AM

What are the facts here? I hear there was a high speed chase becasue the driver of a vechile fled police? right? If that is the case does it matter if the guy is white black purple he ran from police. I do that and there is going to be a chase.

I do not claim to understand what is going on there in Michigan but befroe folks say the cops are monsters or the rioters are monsters give me the facts.
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#12 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:53 AM

According to another article http://story.news.ya...ichigan_riots_6, the reason for the man's flight from the police is unknown.  It looks like he was running for fear of getting caught on minor charges (but with a criminal record, even minor charges could have major consequences).

But it also looks like the community is reacting to the chase itself - under the impression that there was some other way to have dealt with the situation (although what other way is not specified), and as I suspected, the community feels harassed by the police force - making the crash a trigger for feelings that have nothing to do with it.

QT

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#13 LaughingVulcan

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:30 AM

G1223, on Jun 19 2003, 08:47 AM, said:

What are the facts here? I hear there was a high speed chase becasue the driver of a vechile fled police? right? If that is the case does it matter if the guy is white black purple he ran from police. I do that and there is going to be a chase.

I do not claim to understand what is going on there in Michigan but befroe folks say the cops are monsters or the rioters are monsters give me the facts.
Umm, probably not if you're white. Most police departments have some very specific guidelines of when high speed chases may and may not be pursued.  If you have a misdemeanor warrant showing, or maybe even driving a stolen car, intelligent police realize that getting you for that crime is NOT worth the death of an innocent in a wreck, or even the person's life.

If you're on the FBI's ten most wanted for Oklahoma City, that is different.  If you're demonstrating intoxicated behavior, that is also different.  But if this chase had nothing behind it but DWB, well, was it worth it?

I was working security one night in Mesa, Arizona.  It was common that I'd listen to police frequencies (so I could get the heck out of dodge if Usama was coming up to my gate.)  Anyway, Maricopa County was doing a high speed that was rapidly approaching Mesa's jurisdiction.  Normally the city agency then takes over the pursuit, for they know their city's grid best.  The Mesa supervisor asked MCSO, "Why is the pursuit going on?"  MCSO couldn't immediately answer why.  Mesa then handed over the pursuit back to MCSO and pulled all Mesa units back from the chase.  Why?  Because in the supervisor's judgment, this was a chase for chase's sake, and he was not going to submit the city to liability if and when an accident happened.
From the County's side of it, Sherriff Deputies very frequently operate outside of immediate support (and sometimes even radio range still in this day.)  They weren't sure about what they had, so they continue the pursuit.

Things just aren't that black and white (pun intended?  Dunno...) even when we want them to be.
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#14 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:41 AM

I disagree that chasing the subject is inappropriate.

If somebody runs, they almos certainly have something to hide; kidnap victim, drugs, parole violations, whatever. It sends an awful message to criminals that they can get aawy if they just drive fast. You have no way of knowing what the guy is guilty of until you catch him.... and if nobody is chased, that means everybody the cops try to pull over for speeding is going to try to take off (particularly if they invest in 'novelty' fake license plates). I think that's MUCH more dangerous.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
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#15 LaughingVulcan

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:43 AM

OTOH, "But when Sir Mob breaks loose he cannot tell the upright, of keep them apart; he lays about him at random, and great and horrible injustice is inevitable."
Supposedly, most of the 'rioters' are under 16; certainly there are socially conscious 16 year olds.  But enough to make a riot???
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#16 jon3831

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:55 AM

Mob mentality is a strange thing...

A small group can start something, and suddenly is balloons out of control...

At one of the high schools I went to, there was a "disturbance" in the quad... No violence, just a lot of yelling and screaming at administrators. I asked one of the participants what what up, and the reply I got was "I don't know"

And I agree with Rov. Letting people go is an *awful* message to send... It's one of those things that will likely encourage more crime.
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#17 LaughingVulcan

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:01 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 12:42 PM, said:

I disagree that chasing the subject is inappropriate.

If somebody runs, they almos certainly have something to hide; kidnap victim, drugs, parole violations, whatever. It sends an awful message to criminals that they can get aawy if they just drive fast. You have no way of knowing what the guy is guilty of until you catch him.... and if nobody is chased, that means everybody the cops try to pull over for speeding is going to try to take off (particularly if they invest in 'novelty' fake license plates). I think that's MUCH more dangerous.
The chase, though, *does* begin for some reason known to the officer.   There's a big difference between a kidnapper and a pot smuggler, at least in my mind.  If a pot smoker escapes, I can still lay secure in my bed at night.  If the hillside strangler is out there, I want him caught.

There is certainly something to what you say, since an officer can't know why the person is running per se.  Yet the officer can find out very quickly if there is a felony warrant on the vehicle owner, if the car is reported stolen, etc.  

Chases very rarely begin by somebody seeing a cop and stomping on the gas.  It begins by a cop noticing something and hitting the lights and/or siren.  Until the suspect is identified the officer has two facts:  1.  The suspect is presumably guilty of a moving violation, or there is an issue that the officer feels is wrong.  2.  The person is now guilty of fleeing.  He does not have the authority, nor the right, to speculate about why; he or she must deal with fact.

Another example:  A security guard sees someone shoplift a loaf of bread and run out of the store.  He draws his .38, puts one round in the perp's back.  The perp dies on scene.  Justified?  This did happen in Phoenix.  And the court found, no, it was not a justifiable use of force.

A chase is also a use of force.  Not just physical force, but real kinetic and potential energy force.  If said bread thief jumps in a car and speeds away, is it right for the police to follow him at 100 mph?  

Now, very frequently they will not abandon the chase.  The best strategy, employed frequently in L.A. is to get a helicopter overhead (the car can't outrun the air unit...) and the officers back off to give the suspect the ability to slow down.  Fine, let em bail out, we'll still find you.  And any chase that ends without loss of life or property is infinitely preferable to one that does (in an absolute sense when the suspect is caught.)
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#18 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:48 AM

Quote

The chase, though, *does* begin for some reason known to the officer. There's a big difference between a kidnapper and a pot smuggler, at least in my mind. If a pot smoker escapes, I can still lay secure in my bed at night. If the hillside strangler is out there, I want him caught.

Oh, I agree. But my point is you can't know what somebody has to hide until you can pull him over and have a chat with him.

Quote

There is certainly something to what you say, since an officer can't know why the person is running per se. Yet the officer can find out very quickly if there is a felony warrant on the vehicle owner, if the car is reported stolen, etc.

There's often not anything on record; again, a kidnapper could easily have clean plates.

Quote

Chases very rarely begin by somebody seeing a cop and stomping on the gas. It begins by a cop noticing something and hitting the lights and/or siren. Until the suspect is identified the officer has two facts: 1. The suspect is presumably guilty of a moving violation, or there is an issue that the officer feels is wrong. 2. The person is now guilty of fleeing. He does not have the authority, nor the right, to speculate about why; he or she must deal with fact.

Agreed. I think it's a fact that if somebody is running, they're not only a danger to civilians and property, but they've also demonstrated their criminal intent. If they're willing to run from police, what else will they do?

Quote

A security guard sees someone shoplift a loaf of bread and run out of the store. He draws his .38, puts one round in the perp's back. The perp dies on scene. Justified? This did happen in Phoenix. And the court found, no, it was not a justifiable use of force.

I don't think shoplifting is on the same level as running from law enforcement. That being said, I would need to know more before deciding whether to hold the guard liable. I have a very low threshold for the rights of criminals.

Quote

A chase is also a use of force. Not just physical force, but real kinetic and potential energy force. If said bread thief jumps in a car and speeds away, is it right for the police to follow him at 100 mph?

If the police try to pull him over and he keeps going? Go for it.

Quote

Now, very frequently they will not abandon the chase. The best strategy, employed frequently in L.A. is to get a helicopter overhead (the car can't outrun the air unit...) and the officers back off to give the suspect the ability to slow down. Fine, let em bail out, we'll still find you. And any chase that ends without loss of life or property is infinitely preferable to one that does (in an absolute sense when the suspect is caught.)

If that's an option that's available, I'm all for it.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#19 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:21 AM

So the second that the blood covered triple humocide suspect leaps into his car and flees the police mus t go into the crime scene investigate make a detirimanation of intent then chase.

I as the victim of a drunk driver he fled the scene I followed so I couuld get data for the police when he suddenly turnned back onto a major road. He did so in front of a police car. To Quote the cop. "Here I am going down Shelby and here from a side road comes a car with sparks flying out from underneath it and I say to myself 'There has to be a real interesting story for this' and so I turned on my lights and siren."

The driver was on a suspended licence with numerous drunk driving violations and also a probation on burglury . So the cops see a car acting oddly they are going to do what they feel is right and if the guy runs they are going to chase they have little option that was taken by the guy who started to run.
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#20 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 09:21 AM

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Laughing Vulcan: He does not have the authority, nor the right, to speculate about why; he or she must deal with fact.

Here I disagree.  Once that car starts running the officer should do everything in his capability to stop it without endangering too many innocent people.  Sure some people might try to run because they think they can avoid a moving violation.  Then you have the cases where they are running because they have a kidnapping victim tied up in the backseat or a carload of illegal weapons or maybe the car is a bomb.  I think from the position of the cop yopu have to assume worse case and then act reasonably from that point.  


Quote

Laughing Vulcan: Now, very frequently they will not abandon the chase. The best strategy, employed frequently in L.A. is to get a helicopter overhead (the car can't outrun the air unit...) and the officers back off to give the suspect the ability to slow down.

Here I think you hit the dime in most cases an air unit is the best way to pursue a suspect.  I really think UAVs could do a great job in the role of tracking fleeing suspect. The slower ones like the Predator are still as fast or faster than most helicopters and have a much better loitering capability than a helicopter.   Might be something for at least State Police to think about as the technology matures.
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