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now you can't have ivf

IVF Pregnancy 2007

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#21 Broph

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:09 AM

View PostCheile, on Nov 15 2007, 04:40 AM, said:

what Chaddee said--if they are going to deny IVF to "fat" women--they they better be banning anorexics and bulimics too....

Actually, I don't think she said any such thing; I think she addressed underweight women, but not anorexic or bulimic women. A person could have either condition and not be underweight, per se, and it would be difficult to diagnose those conditions without the person being underweight (though the bulimics may have enamel erosion).

As I'm reading other articles, though, I'm finding that there are several articles about the society mentioned. The NHS does restrict some obese women from the treatment, but there is no strict guideline. What the society is proposing is that there be a specific standard, though the do recognize that each patient is different. The article did point out the specific problems associated with obesity and fertility, though; it's not like this was a witch hunt or people saying "we don't like fat people".

BTW, though the story is listed with a November 2007 date, this is not a new issue for the society. There are a number of articles from a year ago that say the same thing, including

Quote

The one in five British women who is clinically obese, with a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or more, should be accepted by NHS fertility clinics only if she diets and exercises, the society’s guidelines say. The same restrictions should also apply to very underweight women, with a BMI below 19.

http://www.timesonli...ticle622427.ece

Now I will point out that in that paragraph, the underweight women are given the same restrictions as someone with a BMI of 30 or more; in this case, women with a BMI of 35 or more are still recommended as banned from the treatment. However, the society isn't just targeting the overweight; they're also considering the underweight.

Edited by Broph, 15 November 2007 - 07:17 AM.


#22 Broph

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:15 AM

View Postwiggy, on Nov 15 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

View PostCheile, on Nov 15 2007, 04:40 AM, said:

what Chaddee said--if they are going to deny IVF to "fat" women--they they better be banning anorexics and bulimics too....

very well put

for some reason people still feel it's OK to insult fat people with this crap... people who smoke only get refused treatment for stuff where it's a total waste of time to treat them if they smoke.... they still get treated for every other smoking related ailment

most of this stuff is not about health it's about body fascism

Respectfully, I don't think you read the article.

Quote

"Obesity reduces the chances that a woman will conceive naturally and decreases the possibility that fertility treatment will be successful," said Mr Tony Rutherford, the chair of the BFS's policy committee.

"It also increases the risk of complications during fertility treatment and pregnancy and endangers the health and welfare of both mother and child."

Among the "complications" listed was the difficulty of providing safe anaesthesia for obese women during procedures, as well as problems with viewing ovaries on an ultrasound scan.

Obesity is also thought to raise a woman's risk of miscarriage after IVF treatment.


#23 WildChildCait

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:16 PM

but if you have endotrimosis you apparently are allowed to have IVF..

http://news.bbc.co.u...ire/7097238.stm

which really confuses me as that is a medical condition which definitely has problems with pregnancy! Not 'maybe' or 'risk' as obese women have, but 'does'.

Sorry, but at this point i can't take a weight based argument seriously as a reason for disqualification if a good sound medically diagnosed case of endotrimosis is not a good reason.
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#24 Caithness

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:21 PM

View PostWildChildCait, on Nov 15 2007, 06:16 PM, said:

but if you have endotrimosis you apparently are allowed to have IVF..

http://news.bbc.co.u...ire/7097238.stm

which really confuses me as that is a medical condition which definitely has problems with pregnancy! Not 'maybe' or 'risk' as obese women have, but 'does'.

Sorry, but at this point i can't take a weight based argument seriously as a reason for disqualification if a good sound medically diagnosed case of endotrimosis is not a good reason.

I don't think you read this article, either.  Her endometriosis made it hard for her to concieve, but a blood clot in her leg that traveled to her pelvis is what complicated the pregnancy.
The woman had a host of other problems, too, and I agree that in this particular case, she should have been denied ivf.  But you can't blame endometriosis all by itself.  Most of the time, it impedes conception but not pregnancy.
Anyhoo, the issue here isn't really complications, it's the fact that ivf has an extremely low success rate for obese patients.
It's like, if my tax dollars are paying for you to concieve, you'd darn well better do everything right.  Would they continue to treat a woman who stopped taking her fertility drugs?  No, and obese women are no different.  They're not doing everything they can to concieve.  They haven't exhausted all their other options like most women seeking ivf because the best option is to lose weight.
Most obese woman could concieve naturally if they'd just lose weight.

Quote

Morris explains further, "Obese women have a higher incidence of ovulation problems and irregular menstrual cycle. This may be due to a problem called insulin resistance which is the same problem that increases their risk of diabetes. Obese women may also have more uterine problems as estrogen production from fat cells can cause abnormal changes in the uterine lining and in some cases even proceed to cancer." A recent study suggested that obese women may have a 3.5 fold increase in their risk for miscarriage.

Additionally, obese patients have a poorer chance for success with fertility treatments. They tend to have a worse response to fertility medications and as a result may need higher doses. Pregnancy rates are uniformly lower for obese women. This is true even for high tech treatments such as in vitro fertilization. Some IVF studies show a delivery rate for obese women that is one half what it is for thinner women. "If you are going to spend thousands of dollars on fertility treatments, obese women should be advised of their prognosis so they can make a more educated decision," adds Morris.
http://www.prweb.com...prweb450523.htm

If you wanna have kids, you've got to be willing to do the work.  Otherwise, pay for it yourself.

Edited by Caithness, 15 November 2007 - 06:34 PM.

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#25 WildChildCait

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:43 PM

actually I did read the article.

What I was referring to, if you cared to ask instead of assume I was randomly posting links wihtout a purpose, was the fact she had endotrimosis and was given IVF. Now I know a little bit about that subject, and that is the only thing i was referring to.

The fact that people with prexisting medical conditions  (which can definitely hinder pregnancy) can get IVF whereas a non-medical condition is denied it.

That is what I was referring to.

Please ask if you're unsure instead of assuming and patronising. Thank you.
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#26 Caithness

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:19 PM

View PostWildChildCait, on Nov 15 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

actually I did read the article.

What I was referring to, if you cared to ask instead of assume I was randomly posting links wihtout a purpose, was the fact she had endotrimosis and was given IVF. Now I know a little bit about that subject, and that is the only thing i was referring to.

The fact that people with prexisting medical conditions  (which can definitely hinder pregnancy) can get IVF whereas a non-medical condition is denied it.

That is what I was referring to.

Please ask if you're unsure instead of assuming and patronising. Thank you.


That's a great way of making it about me instead of addressing ANY of what I said.  

You're ignoring the pesky blood clot in her leg that actually killed her, along with the adverse reaction to the drugs that were given to her to stimulate her ovaries which had nothing to do with the endometriosis.  

People with endometriosis have exhausted all their options.  People with obesity have not, cuz they could lose weight and concieve naturally.  You can't lose endometriosis.

And Obesity is a medical condition.

Edited by Caithness, 15 November 2007 - 07:22 PM.

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#27 Rhea

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:00 PM

Obesity in the mother poses significant risks to both mother and child. I can't argue with this one. Morbidly obese women often have high blood pressure and/or diabetes, and they run a higher risk of a stroke (never mind the complications of gestational diabetes, which can be hard on the baby and cause long-term problems if the mom doesn't take her medication religiously).

And yes, underweight women are told to gain weight before getting pregnant. The oh-so-anorexic Nicole Richie was told to gain weight when she got pregnant and put on ten pounds right away to do the right thing for the baby. Underweight women have a harder time getting pregnant in the first place because if you're significantly underweight, it plays hell with your hormones - sometimes anorexic women stop having periods altogether, which obviously isn't conducive to getting pregnant.

Doctors can't stop morbidly obese or anorexic women from getting pregnant in the first place, but asking them to do IVF on either is asking them to knowingly create a medical problem, and that's contrary to what doctors are supposed to do. I don't see how any doctor in good conscience could perform IVF under those circumstances.

Before you assume there's a witch hunt, you need to know what they're talking about in the first place.

To put it in perspective, a person with a BMI of 25-30 would be considered overweight. Anything over 30 is just plain obese. So they're not asking them to become thin - they're asking them to drop down to the low end of the obesity scale. Or to put it another way, if you're a 5'7" woman you'd have to get down to 190-220 pounds to meet their standard. That says clearly to me that they're willing to work with overweight women, they just don't want to work with morbidly obese women because there are enormous risks to both mother and child. So they wouldn't want the same woman to undergo IVF if she weighed 275-300 (WAY over the 35 BMI mark) but they'd do it if she weighed approximately 190-220 (30-35 BMI).

Frankly, if I weighed 275 pounds I'd be scared sh*tless to get pregnant, because there are so many risks involved.

Edited by Rhea, 15 November 2007 - 08:29 PM.

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#28 Caithness

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:16 PM

^I guess I probably could have cleared up a lot of misunderstandings if I had made it clear that I was refering to significantly obsese people- not overweight people in general.  

Thanks rhea rhea
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#29 Rhea

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:25 PM

^Any time. ;)
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#30 Raina

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:50 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 15 2007, 06:54 AM, said:

View PostLyric, on Nov 15 2007, 05:06 AM, said:

Next time you get pregnant and you can't afford it and have no way to deal with it, tell me you're not seeking to return to full functionality in your whole life.

I've never been pregnant and being a male, I never expect to become pregnant, so I don't think there will be a "next time" for me being pregnant. I do OK financially, so even if that did happen, I don't think I won't be able to afford it.

But in answer to your question, the people in such a position had a choice: pay for it themselves or abstain from sex. It's as simple as that.
Men can abstain from sex just as well as women can, so why should medical insurance pay for medication so that men can get it up and have sex when it won't pay for medication so that women can have sex without ruining their lives?

Edited by Raina, 15 November 2007 - 10:51 PM.


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#31 Nikcara

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:55 AM

Endometeriosis isn't actually a big complication in and of itself for pregnancy.  What the disease is is having endometrial tissue grow outside of the uterus.  Most of the time it is very uncomfortable, but it's lack of treatment that can cause real complications and eventually death.  Because of the long time it takes to cause complications other than pain, it's not considered a big risk for pregnancy.

What makes it hard to have kids for the person with endometriosis is that the treatment for it is birth control pills.  There are two basic types of birth control - one that tricks your body into thinking it's already pregnant and therefore won't allow eggs to drop and the other tricks your body into thinking it's past menopause.  Endmetrosis is treated with the later.  This means that in order to concieve, the woman must get off her birth control, give her body enough time to relize it's fertile again, and then try to concieve, which can be a long process filled with ever-mounting pain, due to the endometrosis returning.  IVF is therefore a way of cutting the time off the birth control drugs and reducing the risks to the mother.  

Besides, as has already been pointed out by several people (myself included) that underweight people are also denied IVF.  If it was about body facsim, they would let you be as thin as you could make yourself.  So it's really not so much about some ideal body image from the doctors as it is about the health and well-being of both mother and child.
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#32 Nikcara

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 03:05 AM

View PostBroph, on Nov 15 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

But it is treating a condition.

A female friend of mine once complained that Viagra is covered on health insurance while birth controls aren't. But, as I told her, the explanation is simple. Viagra takes something that isn't working the way that it should and returns it to full functionality. Birth control pills take something that's working exactly the way that it should and makes it stop working mostly due to choice. Granted, if there is a medical reason other than choice that birth control pills should be taken, then they should be covered.

But IVF helps along people who for whatever reason aren't having the results that they should.

But part of the problem is that even for other medical conditions it isn't covered.  I'm on birth control because my irregular periods drive me nuts otherwise, but I still have to pay out of pocket.  The next problem is - prove that it isn't for medical condition.  If a women comes to her doctor complaining of horrible cramps and an irregular cycle, how do is the doctor supposed to know if she really has that or is saying it just to get on birth control?

Besides, it still feels like the logic is men should be allowed to go out and have sex if they want to, but women need to be more careful and just abstain.  It's a double standard, particularly since there are many medical conditions that birth control treats, but Viagra only helps guys get it up.
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#33 Rhea

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 03:14 AM

View PostWildChildCait, on Nov 15 2007, 03:16 PM, said:

but if you have endotrimosis you apparently are allowed to have IVF..

<snip>

which really confuses me as that is a medical condition which definitely has problems with pregnancy! Not 'maybe' or 'risk' as obese women have, but 'does'.

Actually, this is inaccurate. To add to what Nickara said, infertility is biggest complication of endometriosis (because of scar tissue). Often laparascopic surgery to remove adhesions can improve fertility. There are no great risks with pregnancy in women with endometriosis. Women who have untreated endometriosis have a higher risk of miscarriage (this is not true of women who've had it treated). Pregnancy can actually IMPROVE endometriosis, and some times it causes the symptoms to decrease to the point that a woman becomes asymptomatic. All of this has to do with shifts in hormonal balance during pregnancy.

http://www.ahealthym.../topic13041#s14

Quote

In women with mild endometriosis, cumulative pregnancy rates are normal, according to recent studies. But when scar tissue has formed around the uterus and other reproductive organs, fertility can be decreased. Studies have shown that 30 to 40 percent of women with endometriosis are infertile (twice the rate in the normal population) and, conversely, that between one-fourth and one-half of all infertile women have endometriosis. Adhesions and scar tissue caused by the disease can prevent pregnancy by blocking the Fallopian tubes, wrapping around the ovaries so ovulation can't take place, or sealing off the uterus. But the good news is that once you've conceived and your egg has implanted, endometriosis will not interfere with or damage your pregnancy. In fact, your endometriosis should actually improve during pregnancy.

IVF is the next step for women who've had the endometriosis treated and still can't get pregnant (if, for instance, there is scar tissue around the Fallopian tubes that can't be completely removed so that the woman can't ovulate). Endometriosis is the second most common cause of infertility in women (pelvic inflammatory disease is #1).

Edited by Rhea, 16 November 2007 - 03:44 AM.

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#34 Broph

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:15 AM

View PostRaina, on Nov 16 2007, 03:50 AM, said:

View PostBroph, on Nov 15 2007, 06:54 AM, said:

View PostLyric, on Nov 15 2007, 05:06 AM, said:

Next time you get pregnant and you can't afford it and have no way to deal with it, tell me you're not seeking to return to full functionality in your whole life.

I've never been pregnant and being a male, I never expect to become pregnant, so I don't think there will be a "next time" for me being pregnant. I do OK financially, so even if that did happen, I don't think I won't be able to afford it.

But in answer to your question, the people in such a position had a choice: pay for it themselves or abstain from sex. It's as simple as that.
Men can abstain from sex just as well as women can, so why should medical insurance pay for medication so that men can get it up and have sex when it won't pay for medication so that women can have sex without ruining their lives?

Define "ruining their lives". The question that I answered directly had to do with a pregnancy that couldn't be afforded. I gave the most logical solution to the question that was posed to me.

#35 Broph

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:21 AM

View PostNikcara, on Nov 16 2007, 08:05 AM, said:

View PostBroph, on Nov 15 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

But it is treating a condition.

A female friend of mine once complained that Viagra is covered on health insurance while birth controls aren't. But, as I told her, the explanation is simple. Viagra takes something that isn't working the way that it should and returns it to full functionality. Birth control pills take something that's working exactly the way that it should and makes it stop working mostly due to choice. Granted, if there is a medical reason other than choice that birth control pills should be taken, then they should be covered.

But IVF helps along people who for whatever reason aren't having the results that they should.

But part of the problem is that even for other medical conditions it isn't covered.

And that's why I said "Granted, if there is a medical reason other than choice that birth control pills should be taken, then they should be covered." I hadn't covered the possibility, though, that there might be other drugs that are effective that may be covered; I don't know about that.

Quote

Besides, it still feels like the logic is men should be allowed to go out and have sex if they want to, but women need to be more careful and just abstain.

But remember; when the woman is abstaining, the man will be abstaining, too. Also, remember that the woman can pay for the drugs out of her own pocket. Impotence is a problem that can be fixed with drugs. Not wanting a pregnancy isn't a problem; it's a choice; it's a decision.

Quote

It's a double standard, particularly since there are many medical conditions that birth control treats, but Viagra only helps guys get it up.

But doesn't it then allow women to get what they want, too?

#36 Lyric of Delphi

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:43 AM

View PostBroph, on Nov 16 2007, 12:21 PM, said:

Quote

Besides, it still feels like the logic is men should be allowed to go out and have sex if they want to, but women need to be more careful and just abstain.

But remember; when the woman is abstaining, the man will be abstaining, too. Also, remember that the woman can pay for the drugs out of her own pocket. Impotence is a problem that can be fixed with drugs. Not wanting a pregnancy isn't a problem; it's a choice; it's a decision.

Getting pregnant is a problem if you don't want it. You can go on about how there's always a choice while bandying about the virtues of viagra, but things happen. Like falling in love.

Quote

Quote

It's a double standard, particularly since there are many medical conditions that birth control treats, but Viagra only helps guys get it up.

But doesn't it then allow women to get what they want, too?

No. I have to say that the guy enjoys sex more than the girl. But maybe that's another thread.

#37 Broph

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:50 AM

View PostLyric, on Nov 16 2007, 01:43 PM, said:

Getting pregnant is a problem if you don't want it.

And not wanting it is a choice.

Quote

You can go on about how there's always a choice while bandying about the virtues of viagra, but things happen. Like falling in love.

Where did I say anything about virtues? Love does not equal sex.

Quote

No. I have to say that the guy enjoys sex more than the girl. But maybe that's another thread.

If that were true, then things wouldn't "happen", would they?

#38 Godeskian

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:45 AM

View PostLyric, on Nov 16 2007, 01:43 PM, said:

No. I have to say that the guy enjoys sex more than the girl. But maybe that's another thread.

Without getting TMI on you, then I don't think the guy is doing it right.

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#39 Pixiedust

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:06 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 16 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

View PostLyric, on Nov 16 2007, 01:43 PM, said:

Getting pregnant is a problem if you don't want it.

And not wanting it is a choice.

Wanting sex is a choice too.
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#40 Caithness

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 03:16 PM

View PostLyric, on Nov 16 2007, 08:43 AM, said:

No. I have to say that the guy enjoys sex more than the girl. But maybe that's another thread.


Are you talking about women in general or women having sex with guys on viagra?
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