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What the Bible says

Religion Bible Racism Sexism Slavery Literal Christianity Fundamentalism

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#1 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 07:43 PM

Racism, Sexism and Slavery


Quote

Nehemiah 13:23-27 (NIV): Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab ... I rebuked them and called curses down on them ... I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves. Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women. Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"

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Genesis 24:1-4 (NIV): Abraham was now old and well advanced in years, and the LORD had blessed him in every way. He said to the chief servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, "Put your hand under my thigh. I want you to swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living, but will go to my country and my own relatives and get a wife for my son Isaac."

Quote

Ezra 10:10-12 (NIV) Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, "You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel's guilt. Now make confession to the LORD, the God of your fathers, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives." The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: "You are right! We must do as you say."

Quote

Leviticus 25:42,25:44-46 (NIV): "Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves ... Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Family Values


Quote

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
...
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
...
The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." 

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Genesis 19:8 (NIV): Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.

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Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (NIV): If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

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Kings 2:23-24 (NIV): From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.     

Women

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Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV): A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

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1 Peter 3:5-6 (NIV): For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master.


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Numbers 31:14-18 (NIV): Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

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Judges 21:12-22 (NIV): They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man ... So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them ... the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said," so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out ... But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah. So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, "Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war ..."

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Judges 19:24 (NIV): Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing ... the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.       

Quote

Issaiah 3:12-17 (NIV): Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path ... The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald."

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 19 June 2003 - 07:50 PM.

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#2 Kosh

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 12:36 AM

Quote

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
...
The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." 

You sniped an important part in this one Lil, where God stops the sacrifice, having never meant for Abraham to kill his son, he only wanted to see if he would do it.

But I get the point. Why would anyone want to be associated with religon, especially women.
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#3 rhuhne

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 01:04 AM

Lil!!!

You know you can't just pull random quotes from the Bible to prove your point!!!








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#4 Jid

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 01:29 AM

*confused*

Is there a point to this exercise, other than showing how easy it is to quote verses of pretty well *any* holy text, and construe them to fit what you want them to?
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#5 MuseZack

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 01:51 AM

How does the old saying go?  "Even the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose."  These must be some of his favorites. :devil:  :devil:  :devil:

Zack
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#6 Delvo

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 01:51 AM

Jid, on Jun 19 2003, 08:30 AM, said:

Is there a point to this exercise, other than showing how easy it is to quote verses of pretty well *any* holy text, and construe them to fit what you want them to?
What construing went on here? It's just what the thing says. If Leviticus says insects have four legs, it's saying insects have four legs.

I've seen Bible-bashing in the form of quoting an old story and pretending that that equals advice for how people should live their lives when it's really meant as background/history or even a warning of what NOT to do. But quoting without commentary is just showing what the book itself says.

It isn't the non-Christians' fault that the Christians' holy book is inherently such an incoherent, amoral, God-convicting, false, logic-torturing mess that "the faith" can only be rescued from by its irrelevance to what they actually believe and do.

Edited by Delvo, 20 June 2003 - 02:17 AM.


#7 Godeskian

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:08 AM

It's a basic problem with fundementalist. They claim (and have done so to my face) that everything in the bible is the literal truth, because it's the bible.

Which means that God is the kind of mass murderer and abusive parent i would gladly see forgotten

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#8 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:19 AM

NA

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 June 2003 - 09:24 AM.


#9 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:41 AM

Then again maybe we could just have a Christian bashing tread and give a nice title with lovely pictures along the wall and after the christian passes the whirling blades there will little trays to catch the blood and machines to take away the body parts.

So it's ok to bash Crishtians let me know when we get to kick a few other faiths around I mean fair play for all side right? I mean I might want to  "say pegans are silly bastards who run around in the wilds of where ever sometimes naked and having sex and maybe in some sects doing drungs."

Do I want  to no. I would rather we leave the topic of faith with the individual.
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#10 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:42 AM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lover of Purple}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

While I don't agree with a literal interpretation of the Bible, I also think this entire thread is in poor spirit.

I had always understood us to have respect for one another enough not to attack one another's faith (and singling out for attack someone's sacred text is a way of attacking someone's faith).

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#11 Norville

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 02:57 AM

Quote

Oh good grief! ExIsle has joined the rest of the country and world in attacking the bible. Everyone, read the ENTIRE Bible and make your own decisions.

Why assume that others haven't read the Bible and made their own decisions? I've certainly read the entire New Testament. I'll admit that I've never read the entire Old Testament; yes, I need to do that. No further comment.


Quote

Then again maybe we could just have a Christian bashing tread

Well, G, you've contributed enough to French-bashing threads. Of course, it's great to attack other countries and their people, because that's not a religion, and therefore, fair game.

Quote

So it's ok to bash Crishtians let me know when we get to kick a few other faiths around I mean fair play for all side right?

Again, G, your French-bashing. Why not examine the log in your own eye before criticizing the speck in other people's eyes? ;)


Quote

I also think this entire thread is in poor spirit.

This thread started as quoting the Bible, showing what it says on various topics. That in itself isn't in poor spirit. Perhaps all the editorial commentary afterwards is in poor spirit...
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#12 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:11 AM

I can play this game, too.

Racism:

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.  And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Colossians 3:11-14

The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence.  But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.

Acts 10:24-28

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

Acts 10:34-35

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:26-28


Women:

A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls. She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.”  Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.  Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

Proverbs 31:10-31

After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD. So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help. Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’ ” Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman.”

Judges 4:1-9

May the LORD make the woman who is coming into your home like Rachel and Leah, who together built up the house of Israel.

Ruth 4:11

After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

Luke 8:1-3

On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

Acts 16:13-15
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#13 Kosh

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:19 AM

edited

Edited by Kosh, 10 June 2005 - 08:30 AM.

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#14 QuiGon John

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:20 AM

Drew, on Jun 19 2003, 04:12 PM, said:

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
This is one of my favorites.  I was looking for a verse to use in a story that dealt with prejudice, and somehow I happened upon this one... it just turned out perfectly. :)

Peter is one of my favorite Biblical figures anyway, because (like us) he made so many mistakes, but every once in a while he'd go and say something like this.

#15 shambalayogi

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:21 AM

Jid, on Jun 19 2003, 02:30 PM, said:

*confused*

Is there a point to this exercise, other than showing how easy it is to quote verses of pretty well *any* holy text, and construe them to fit what you want them to?
I thought this was the point, Jid.  I think someone can take quotes from the Bible, or any other text from a religion/faith, out of the context of the original and make it fit whatever you want it to.  and make it mean whatever you want it to mean even if it is contrary to the basic tenets of the religion the quote comes from.

I don't think this means Lil means to bash the Bible but I'd say she's showing the contradictions between a basic Christian text and what Christians say sometimes.

I also think there isn't a *holy scripture* and any religion that doesn't have contradictions in it.    Of course, I don't think anyone religion or scripture has the whole answer anyway. There are many paths to God/Goddess/Creator.
Of course, that  obviously means I think there Is a Creator! ;)

Edited by shambalayogi, 20 June 2003 - 03:29 AM.

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#16 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:23 AM

NA

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 June 2003 - 09:25 AM.


#17 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:24 AM

Kosh, on Jun 19 2003, 11:20 AM, said:

No one is attacking the Bible. Lil posted some quotes, . . .
You have to admit that Lil was certainly attempting to prove something. There was an agenda.
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#18 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:29 AM

I think the point is that you can take Bible quotes to 'prove' anything you want.

Which means that 'because the Bible says so' is a useless thing to say in a debate.
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#19 shambalayogi

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:31 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 04:30 PM, said:

I think the point is that you can take Bible quotes to 'prove' anything you want.

Which means that 'because the Bible says so' is a useless thing to say in a debate.
If the person you're talking to believes the Bible has some authority you could use the reasoning "because the Bible says so."  If the person you're talking to doesn't believe in the Bible, the argument won't mean much.

Just my two nickels worth of commentary, Rov!
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#20 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:33 AM

Norville, on Jun 19 2003, 03:58 PM, said:

Quote

Oh good grief! ExIsle has joined the rest of the country and world in attacking the bible. Everyone, read the ENTIRE Bible and make your own decisions.

Why assume that others haven't read the Bible and made their own decisions? I've certainly read the entire New Testament. I'll admit that I've never read the entire Old Testament; yes, I need to do that. No further comment.


Quote

Then again maybe we could just have a Christian bashing tread

Well, G, you've contributed enough to French-bashing threads. Of course, it's great to attack other countries and their people, because that's not a religion, and therefore, fair game.

Quote

So it's ok to bash Crishtians let me know when we get to kick a few other faiths around I mean fair play for all side right?

Again, G, your French-bashing. Why not examine the log in your own eye before criticizing the speck in other people's eyes? ;)


Quote

I also think this entire thread is in poor spirit.

This thread started as quoting the Bible, showing what it says on various topics. That in itself isn't in poor spirit. Perhaps all the editorial commentary afterwards is in poor spirit...
Yes I have a long standing dislike of the country of France. I express it.

I also have posted threads in support of other faiths.

I would ask what is your point but basically your point is I should say nothing and let what I believe in be kicked around like a soccor ball.  Thanks your input I file that away in that classic circular file cabinet.
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