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What the Bible says

Religion Bible Racism Sexism Slavery Literal Christianity Fundamentalism

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#21 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:35 AM

NA

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 June 2003 - 09:25 AM.


#22 Kelela

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:36 AM

;) Way to go Lil!! You play devil's advocate very well, I as an unoffical student of scripture, have enjoyed this thread.

What was your point anyway?



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#23 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:38 AM

NA

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 June 2003 - 09:25 AM.


#24 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:38 AM

shambalayogi, on Jun 19 2003, 09:32 AM, said:

If the person you're talking to believes the Bible has some authority you could use the reasoning "because the Bible says so."  If the person you're talking to doesn't believe in the Bible, the argument won't mean much.

Just my two nickels worth of commentary, Rov!
True enough. But the mere fact that there are tens of thousands of books on the Bible and interpretation thereof proves that it's difficult to pin down exactly 'what the Bible says'.
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#25 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:40 AM

Lil quoted the following:

Quote

Nehemiah 13:23-27 (NIV): Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab ... I rebuked them and called curses down on them ... I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves. Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women. Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"

Can you explain the context of these verses? The reason Solomon was said to have sinned for marrying a foreign wife was because in bringing in foreign wives, he also brought foreign gods into his household. This has nothing to do with race. This is about following the first commandment.

The same is true of the other scripture you quote to "prove" racism.

I'll get to the others when I find time, but if you're seeking to prove a certain point of view, you're on pretty shaky ground with some of this.

By the way, I'll wait until Lil steps back in to explain why she posted this before I accept the suggestion that she was attempting to prove that the Bible can be used to justify anything. Let Lil defend herself.
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#26 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:42 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 11:39 AM, said:

True enough. But the mere fact that there are tens of thousands of books on the Bible and interpretation thereof proves that it's difficult to pin down exactly 'what the Bible says'.
The error in your argument is the implicit statement that all "tens of thousands" of books disagree with each other.
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#27 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:47 AM

yeah.  

I don't think I'm going to be able to say this well, but I'm going to give it a shot.


People quote the bible because they believe in it (presumably) in some way or fashion.  They generally speaking will say what they believe any particular quote means (to them).  Theology is a craft that I respect a great deal BECAUSE interpretations can vary, and BECAUSE thinking about how to interpret is, in my opinion, a worthwhile, elevating endeavor.  Even those who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible generally have some theology around the quotes they accept as literally true - meaning that the quote is essentially a backdrop of some kind of thinking that has already gone on.

People who don't accept the bible as any kind of authority generally quote from it for a very different reason.  They may do so just for literary relevancy.  But they sometimes do so to attack/challenge someone else's beliefs.  

It is suggested that everyone follow Drew's example.  But while I appreciate Drew's contribution, I'm asking why we are engaging in this exercise?  What is the ultimate point of this thread, titled "What the Bible says" subtitled (I think sarcastically) "some exemplars"?  Is it to draw people into a theological discussion?  If this thread goes that way, that's a good thing.  But to me, this was a bait at bible-believers.

And I repeat - I don't think it is in good spirit.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#28 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:49 AM

Drew, on Jun 19 2003, 09:43 AM, said:

The error in your argument is the implicit statement that all "tens of thousands" of books disagree with each other.
That's a good point.

Obviously, they don't... but there is significiant disagreement on important fields.

And I too would like to hear Lil's intent in starting this thread. :).
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Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#29 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:55 AM

HOLY MOLY BATMAN!!!!!!!!!

I KNEW I was gonna piss some people off with this but this is.....WOW!

The point?

Rov summed it up nicely:

"It's in the Bible" can be used to justify any number of things.  It's pointless.  It's useless.  It proves NOTHING.  

Because the Bible says all KINDS of things.

Agenda?

Well Drew that's interesting coming from you.  :p

I don't know about "agenda" but certainly there's a point.

BTW, I don't need to defend myself.

*I* didn't write the sexist, anti semitic, racist, and mysogenistic things I quoted.

Take it up with God.

Oh wait.

God didn't write it either.

I believe that was the point.

:p

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 20 June 2003 - 03:56 AM.

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#30 sierraleone

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:15 AM

Doing some cherry picking, eh Lil? ;) (I'd probably do a  :p too if I followed/believed in the bible :) )

Where to start? Both sides seem to agree that the bible can be used to say the wrong thing, though those who believe in the bible would probably say they are using it in a way it wasn't meant to be. Those who follow it also don't seem to see how it invalidates the bible to other people.

I'm sure though, if Lil knew the Qu'ran, or other religion's scriptures, she would quote them too on (what she and other people see) as immoral themes.

I agree with Drew though, about the quotes on racism are not *exactly* about racisms, but, er, religionism?? :D What, could be for you, understandable, right, wrong, something else. It seems like racism because of the close ties between a country/people and religion, they seems to overlap. You could tell a persons likely religion by nationality or race.
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#31 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:25 AM

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*I* didn't write the sexist, anti semitic, racist, and mysogenistic things I quoted.

The very fact that you call them "sexist, anti semitic, racist, and mysogenistic" proves your intent.
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#32 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:26 AM

Quote

My real protest is that many used this as an excuse to attack the Bible and God. I understan Lil's thinking, she is proving a point. It's what others have done with it that I have a problem with.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{LOP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

LOP has nailed it folks, I'm trying to prove a point, not inviting a wholesale "anti God/anti Bible" feeding frenzy.
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#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:30 AM

Drew, on Jun 19 2003, 10:26 AM, said:

Quote

*I* didn't write the sexist, anti semitic, racist, and mysogenistic things I quoted.

The very fact that you call them "sexist, anti semitic, racist, and mysogenistic" proves your intent.
oooooooooh I feel like Dylan in FP

"Admit your intent."

:p

Yeah okay.

Once again.

With Feeling.

My INTENT is to demonstrate that it's POINTLESS to use Biblical quotes to justify yourself because anyone can quote the same book and use it to justify just about ANYTHING.

Lil
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#34 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:43 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 19 2003, 12:31 PM, said:

My INTENT is to demonstrate that it's POINTLESS to use Biblical quotes to justify yourself because anyone can quote the same book and use it to justify just about ANYTHING.
I don't believe you. Your intent is made clear through your choice of words. And I have no desire to play this game. Goodbye.
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#35 Kosh

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 04:55 AM

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You have to admit that Lil was certainly attempting to prove something. There was an agenda

Prove something yes, Agenda, I don't think so. That would mean that she was trying to take on Christains as a whole, or make them look bad, when all that was meant was "the Bible says a lot of things, and saying because the Bible says so doen't get it."


Quote

Look carefully at what has been said and if you are honest with yourself, you should be able to see the attack mode present. If you don't see it, well then just consider me over sensative.

I resepct you, I think you are one of the most reasonable people on the board, but I can't see how you are getting an attack out of these posts. Disagreement, yes and dislike even. Gode had the strongest words, and he/she speakes from personal experience. I wouldn't call that an attack either. It is an opinion based on personal experience.



Quote

It is suggested that everyone follow Drew's example. But while I appreciate Drew's contribution, I'm asking why we are engaging in this exercise? What is the ultimate point of this thread, titled "What the Bible says" subtitled (I think sarcastically) "some exemplars"? Is it to draw people into a theological discussion? If this thread goes that way, that's a good thing. But to me, this was a bait at bible-believers.

And I repeat - I don't think it is in good spirit.

I suggested everyone follow his example because he was open to discussing the topic rather then calling it an attack and righting it off.
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#36 sierraleone

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:06 AM

Ok, I'm going to go at this from a different tack. How do you stop people, who are supposively Catholics and/or Christains from misusing the bible? Same with Muslims, mis-using the Qu'ran (the extremists/traditionalist/fundamentalists/whatever and their holy Jihad against the US anyone?). Lil brings up the point that it can be used to say anything, which certain groups are obviously doing. People shooting doctors who perform abortions. Some Muslim Terrorists. Polygamy. Some husbands who control their wives. They mis-use their holy scriptures, I think *everyone* can agree on that.
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#37 Bossy

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:07 AM

Lil, the same could be said of any work. If you are to pull bits and pieces from here and there and quote them with out providing a contextual framerwork, you can really make any written works say things that it doesn't. That in no way invalidates the work.

Since we are talking about the Bible, it is a work rich indepth on contextual relevance. The words were penned by men ( I'll not get into the debate on whether or not they were inspired ;) ) who lived at different times and in different cultures. True study of the writings should examine the cultural and historical frame work as well as the actually language in the earliest manuscripts available.

Now, as far as quoting the Bible during discussion. For a person who believes that the Bible is the insipired word of God, it is not only reasonable but vital to quote that word. This is the basis for their word view. When you are having a discussion about why you believe such and such or what you believe, the Bible is the basis for how they look at things. How can that person not quote the Bible?

It is entirely legitmate for you to not agree with them or for you to say that you do not accept the basis for their beliefs. However, is it right for you to tell them they have no business quote from the basis of their beliefs simply because you don't accept that basis as valid?

#38 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:26 AM

Kosh, on Jun 19 2003, 09:56 AM, said:

I resepct you, I think you are one of the most reasonable people on the board, but I can't see how you are getting an attack out of these posts. Disagreement, yes and dislike even. Gode had the strongest words, and he/she speakes from personal experience. I wouldn't call that an attack either. It is an opinion based on personal experience.
Thank you Kosh, I also have a lot of respect for you.

Let's just say I feel an attack and you do not. No problem, our perceptions are based on different backgrounds and I respct that. I apologize for my wording, though. After re-reading it, I felt it was harsh and you didn't deserve that. Again, sorry.

LoP

#39 ArmourMe

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:27 AM

Quote

It is entirely legitmate for you to not agree with them or for you to say that you do not accept the basis for their beliefs. However, is it right for you to tell them they have no business quote from the basis of their beliefs simply because you don't accept that basis as valid?
  Bossy

{apologies to Lil if I've read into her thread intent that was not her own - my mistake if so :)}

My take on what Lil is trying to do:  How can someone quote the bible repeatedly against homosexuality and NOT abide by all of the other relevant teachings (of which these quotes are not the entirety) regarding oppression of women, keeping of slaves etc etc etc.

If someone takes the bible as whole cloth, then quoting against homosexuality (or womens rights or whatever, but we all know this started with gay rights issues) makes sense.  If someone doesn't adhere to all the religious law (food, mysoginy etc etc) then how can someone use the bible to claim any ONE thing is wrong?

Mind you, I don't care one way or the other - I don't believe the bible is a book written by or inspired by god.  I don't believe in god.  I won't argue with those who's views are inspired by religion - religion isn't a valid argument in my life.  I will defend myself against people who are trying to impose their religious values on me - ANY of us would do that :)

If one DOES believe the bible is a text telling you gods laws about what to do & not do, how do you justify NOT following proscriptions about food or treatment of women or all the other items one would consider culturally inappropriate these days?

*ArmourMe dons some nice lancer armor and sits back to see where this all goes*
I think that's what Lil's getting at.

#40 G1223

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:52 AM

I do not know a lot of folks who tday take anything at whole cloth. There are to be sure folks who doI wish them well. I follow whatI think is God's plan for me. I do not go making folks believe anything. I've turned and walked away from JW right at the door. just like I hang up on telemarketers.

I havbe used the bible in the past to help me find somecomfort in the passing of family when theu have died or suffered from illness. I still took them to the doctor,but I found comfort. Becasue nothing else was there at hand and I felt maybe God was at that moment speaking to me as he does to all in such times and I was for once listening.

I felt there was an attack on my faith for no other reason than it is not open to the ideas of homosexuals. Try the Koran the laws about such activites are pretty draconian.

What the bible is suppose to do it help answer the questions folks have about issues. Jesus told us to be good human beings I am not going to say one way or the other about homosexual beahvior being right or wrong. I feel it's a personal choice and like abortion taken up with God if and when those people get to meet him.

You can find a lot of actions described in the bible that today are wrong. But remember the bible is there when we need answers to questions. We know that it is wrong to steal or injure another. We now it's wrong to bare false witness against another human being.

In short The fact someone may use the bible as a source for quotations is neither right nor wrong just becasue it came from the bible. It is how the quote is being used so go back and deal with the fact Sid is not going to say his faith his wrong for it's acts. rather than bashing a source of inspiration for some a source of comfort for others
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