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What the Bible says

Religion Bible Racism Sexism Slavery Literal Christianity Fundamentalism

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#41 Kosh

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:54 AM

Lover of Purple, on Jun 19 2003, 02:27 PM, said:

Kosh, on Jun 19 2003, 09:56 AM, said:


I resepct you, I think you are one of the most reasonable people on the board, but I can't see how you are getting an attack out of these posts. Disagreement, yes and dislike even. Gode had the strongest words, and he/she speakes from personal experience. I wouldn't call that an attack either. It is an opinion based on personal experience.
Thank you Kosh, I also have a lot of respect for you.

Let's just say I feel an attack and you do not. No problem, our perceptions are based on different backgrounds and I respct that. I apologize for my wording, though. After re-reading it, I felt it was harsh and you didn't deserve that. Again, sorry.

LoP
My apologies also, if I came off harsh.

I think you might be surprised how close our background may be. I was raised in church, one of my sisters is a chruch pastor, and the other three are pretty dedicated. My brother and I are the skeptics. As we get older, I get farther away, and he seems to be getting closer.
Can't Touch This!!

#42 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:05 AM

Anyone can take any piece of literature, any quote from a famous individual, or any item of science and argue for and against it using the words and phrases to FIT their argument.

I appreciate what Drew, and LoP have said as well as QT.

For those who believe that the Bible is truth and accept what is written in the Holy Scriptures, it is hard not to take offense when it 'appears' that someone is trying to find fault in their 'faith'.

I agree that Lil was trying to say that one can use the Bible to prove FOR or AGAINST any issue.  But, it does come across as sort of a brush off and put down to those who follow God's holy Scriptures.


My ONLY response to some of this is, that according to the Bible and I am sure that LoP and Drew will agree with me, the Bible says that, "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD."

Which means that according to God's standards we are all sinners, whether we are hetero, or same/sex, prostitutes, college students, mothers, fathers, children, etc.

And I believe that MOST Christians believe this.

Lady

#43 sierraleone

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:11 AM

^ well, not to offend... (honestly) you already knew she finds fault with it, or she'd be Catholic/Christain herself probably. Its different in this thread, because shes doing it rather pointedly, not talking about her beliefs so much as picking at parts of your scripture. In essense, she is using your own scripture in a way you find offending. I'm sure she finds other people's use of it offending as well ;) :) (not neccessarily in this thread, I myself haven't seen any use of the scriptures to defend the scriputres that offends me in this thread, but I've certainly seen scriptures used in offending ways before, like those that use scriptures for the reasons I said in my above post)

Edited by sierraleone, 20 June 2003 - 06:12 AM.

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#44 Bossy

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:12 AM

ArmourMe, the Bible is one body of work, and it is linear in nature. It starts with how God created man in a perfect state with free will. Man chose to disobey and was punished. The world was no longer perfect. The Old Testament deals with how God gave the Law to man in order to show man that it is not possible for him to become righteous or blameless before God by his own efforts. However, man is not without hope. God will send a perfect sacrifice through which man might become blameless.

The New Testament is about grace. Now is when God sends His Son Jesus to be that perfect sacrifice. For those who choose to accept the gift of Chirst's sacrifice, their sins are cleansed. In God's eyes, they are blameless and righteous. Man has been freed from the burden of law and has become subject to grace.

The Epistles are letters to the fledging churches who are floundering around trying to figure out how this new liberty from the Law fits with how they should conduct themselves. Each church had is own unique set of questions and struggles.

The Epistles deal in principles. "This is what is happening in your church. Let's examine what God has told us in the past and what Christ has told us. From that we can see what should be done in any given situation. Yes, all things are covered by grace, but that doesn't mean that anything we should choose to do is proffitable or healthy for us or within the plan God has for man. God's plan for us is for good and not for evil. We may not always understand the why's of what God expects. However, we should trust Him who has loved us before we were even born to have our best interests at heart."

Okay, that's an extremely basic and brief synopsis. However, I think it covers the basics.

#45 EvilTree

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:44 AM

Let's put a different spin on this subject.

Why is the Bible not quotable, or other religious texts?

Isn't religion basically philosophy, though with a different spin?

We quote philosophers all the time. Heck, Buddha, Confucius, Aristotle get quoted all the time.

So what's the problem in quoting the Bible or the Quran?
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#46 Han

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:10 AM

^ Some excellent questions. Enjoying this thread immensely.  :)  Very interesting POVs.
Han

#47 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:16 AM

EvilTree, on Jun 19 2003, 12:45 PM, said:

We quote philosophers all the time. Heck, Buddha, Confucius, Aristotle get quoted all the time.
I've never heard anybody advocate forming public policy on the bases of the opinion of Confucius; if they did, he would get it in the shorts too.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#48 Kosh

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:20 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 04:17 PM, said:

EvilTree, on Jun 19 2003, 12:45 PM, said:

We quote philosophers all the time. Heck, Buddha, Confucius, Aristotle get quoted all the time.
I've never heard anybody advocate forming public policy on the bases of the opinion of Confucius; if they did, he would get it in the shorts too.
Well said!!
Can't Touch This!!

#49 Julie

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:24 AM

Okay, I'll bite...

* * * *

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Racism, Sexism and Slavery

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Nehemiah 13:23-27 (NIV): Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab ... I rebuked them and called curses down on them ... I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves. Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women. Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"

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Genesis 24:1-4 (NIV): Abraham was now old and well advanced in years, and the LORD had blessed him in every way. He said to the chief servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, "Put your hand under my thigh. I want you to swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living, but will go to my country and my own relatives and get a wife for my son Isaac."

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Ezra 10:10-12 (NIV) Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, "You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel's guilt. Now make confession to the LORD, the God of your fathers, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives." The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: "You are right! We must do as you say."

I'm not sure why you call this sexism, but interpreting it as racism fails to take into account the historical and culture context.  The problem wasn't with the race of the woman, but with the religion she brought with her.  Keeping the Hebrew religion uninfluenced by Israel's pagan neighbors was a huge priority, and their struggle would not have been helped by intermarrying.

If those instructions were about race, what about the story of Ruth, a Moabite who ended up marrying an Israelite?  The marriage would have been looked down upon, but Ruth had made a decision to worship only the god of the Hebrews, and as a result her story is considered a great tale of faith and loyalty.

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Family Values

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Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
...
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
...
The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." 

First of all, the kid never died.  God clearly never wanted that; it was a test of faith.  Also, many Christians today consider the more unusual stories of the Old Testament to be like pictures, symbols, to help us grasp the story of Jesus.  (For example, the blood of a lamb over the door at Passover would make the angel of death pass over the house is why Jesus is sometimes called "the lamb of God".)  This particular event gains significance when viewed in light of God's sacrifice of his only son because of his love for mankind.

For more on this passage, see http://www.christian...m/qkilisak.html.

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Genesis 19:8 (NIV): Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.

And I would have a problem with this if someone in the Bible was praising Lot for his godly and holy life.  But nobody does.  The only reason the guy's remembered at all is because he's related to Abraham.  

The Old Testament is often just a history of the Hebrew people, and as such records things which are clearly not acceptable (see Judges 19).  This would qualify as one of those things.

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[2] Kings 2:23-24 (NIV): From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

I don't know what they meant by "go on up"-- I think it's something that's been pretty much lost in translation-- so it's difficult to say if Elisha was justified in feeling threatened by it.  However, "youths" in this context are young men, not little kids, and 42 of them were mauled, which suggests that there was even more than 42 taunting Elisha.  That sounds more like a gang, or a small mob, and I can't blame Elisha for invoking God's name in that situation.  See http://www.christian...meanelisha.html for a fairly in-depth explanation of how these two verses are often misinterpreted.  

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Women

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[1] Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV): A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

I'm getting lazy, I know, but I’m just going to give another Christian Think Tank link because I'm tired.  http://www.christian....com/fem09.html.  This is the last verse looked at, in the 4th section, so it's near the bottom.

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Judges 21:12-22 (NIV): They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man ... So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them ... the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said," so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out ... But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah. So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, "Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war ..."

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Judges 19:24 (NIV): Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing ... the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.

Oh, I wouldn't have mentioned Judges 19 if I'd know you were going to bring it up later.

Anyway, I don't see how these two quotes (both part of the same chain of events) prove anything but the sad state that the 12 tribes of Israel were in at the time.  This somewhat sickening story has an appropriate conclusion in Judge 21:25: "every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes."

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Isaiah 3:12-17 (NIV): Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path ... The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald."

Okay, so?  God's angry with the ungodly women.  I don't see why this is a problem; really, there's a whole lot more in the books of the prophets about men who are ungodly.

* * * *

In conclusion:  I know, I know, I didn't deal with 4 of the verses Lil quoted.  Sorry, but this is all I have time for right now.  Anyway, I think this is enough to show that, yes, it's easy to misinterpret the Bible, or quote select sections to prove one's point.  However, this doesn't mean that the Bible can serve too many opposing agendas and is therefore useless.  By reading it in its entirety, and by taking the time to look closely at those passages which seem dubious, one can attain a fairly accurate picture of the Bible's message.

:cool:

#50 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:27 AM

Julie-- The one I'm interested in is where Moses advocates raping virgins and murdering the rest of the women.

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Numbers 31:14-18 (NIV): Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." 

Is this merely a record of what Moses did? Was Moses justified in calling for this action? If not, shouldn't he have been executed?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#51 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:30 AM

Drew, on Jun 19 2003, 10:44 AM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 19 2003, 12:31 PM, said:

My INTENT is to demonstrate that it's POINTLESS to use Biblical quotes to justify yourself because anyone can quote the same book and use it to justify just about ANYTHING.
I don't believe you. Your intent is made clear through your choice of words. And I have no desire to play this game. Goodbye.
It's very unfortunate that you now think I'm lying.

Oh well Drew.

That would be *your* problem.

Maybe you'll keep all of this in mind the next time you feel inclined to quote the Bible to support your views.

Lil
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#52 Bad Wolf

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:34 AM

Oh and to answer the questions raised by LOM (I'm glad you're still talking to me) and Bossy (ditto), ArmourMe has nailed it.

Lil
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#53 Julie

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:36 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 04:28 PM, said:

Julie-- The one I'm interested in is where Moses advocates raping virgins and murdering the rest of the women.

Quote


Numbers 31:14-18 (NIV): Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." 
Is this merely a record of what Moses did? Was Moses justified in calling for this action? If not, shouldn't he have been executed?
Um... honestly, I'm far too tired now to know.  I'll have to give you a link for now and come back later. http://www.christian...com/midian.html.

I hope that helps.

#54 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:44 AM

Following the link:

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The Midianite parents would have been legally/ethically responsible for this situation falling upon their children—NOT the Israelites;

Um... huh? So, if a parent does something wrong, you're allowed to kill the kids?

Quote

This situation was forced upon the Israelites by the unprovoked treachery of the Midianites;

How does that 'require' them to rape? I'm baffled.

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All ANE civilizations recognized the military threat/risk that male slaves (even children) of foreign stock represented. Even the case in which David ‘served’ the Philistines, the Philistine leaders were sensitive to the issue—that David might ‘turn on his Philistine masters’ in the heat of battle (1 Sam 29);

No comment.

Nothing on this page addresses the fact that the so-called hero of the peace ordered rape. Am I missing something?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#55 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:49 AM

Save for yourselves?

Is that the statement implying rape?

It could also imply concubinage - which carries rights for the woman...

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#56 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:56 AM

QueenTiye, on Jun 19 2003, 01:50 PM, said:

Save for yourselves?

Is that the statement implying rape?

It could also imply concubinage - which carries rights for the woman...

QT
QT-- The women were taken against their will and were no doubt pressed into service, including sexual. No matter how you cut it, that's rape. Even if they weren't raped on the battlefield, they were taken as slaves, after the children were killed. I don't think it changes the moral equation one iota if the woman had rights afterwards as a concubine.

YMMV.

EDIT: Unless some sort of sexual service was intended, why check for virginity?

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 20 June 2003 - 07:58 AM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#57 QueenTiye

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:59 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 04:57 PM, said:

QT-- The women were taken against their will and were no doubt pressed into service, including sexual. No matter how you cut it, that's rape. Even if they weren't raped on the battlefield, they were taken as slaves, after their children were killed. I don't think it changes the moral equation one iota if the woman had rights afterwards as a concubine.

YMMV.
I agree.

I'm just pointing out that the social norms of the day may have included only rape and death for women in the losing side of a war - this injunction may have been more humane for the time

And - thats a maybe.  I don't know if that was what's implied at all.  Just what came to me off the top of my head.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#58 Rov Judicata

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:02 AM

Thanks Kosh!

QT-- At the time, it was more or less standard behavior. But it appears that the agent of God was, in fact, a monster-- at least by our standards. Unless God criticized it, he gave it tacit endorsement. That's what I find confounding.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#59 MuseZack

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:24 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 19 2003, 09:03 PM, said:

Thanks Kosh!

QT-- At the time, it was more or less standard behavior. But it appears that the agent of God was, in fact, a monster-- at least by our standards. Unless God criticized it, he gave it tacit endorsement. That's what I find confounding.
And you still think we don't need an International Criminal Court?   ;)   Just think, you could drag God and Moses to the Hague and ask them these questions yourself.

Zack

P.S.  Ask 'em about the Amakelites while you're at it.
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#60 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:29 AM

P.P.S. Ask him about his foreign wife, too.  ;)
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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