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Heath Ledger dies age 28

Obituaries Heath Ledger Actor 2008

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#81 Elara

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:20 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Jan 27 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

I agree with sparky.   It *is* ironic btw that anyone who calls themselves liberal would be so gung ho to preemptively stop someone like Phelps from speaking.  

Lil

Do you ("you" pertains to anyone, not just Lil) honestly believe that a liberal actually thinks this is okay? Do you honestly believe that this was ever thought of when the right was written? Do you honestly believe that this country would have been better off if free speech was not granted?
If you answered 'yes' to all of these, then you must have great mental powers and wanting to live in ~take your pick of countries without rights~.
Freedom of speech does have limitations "That is why freedom of speech, though not absolute, ". In this situation, the mourners also have rights and phelps is stepping on those rights. btw, anyone who believes that they are not making themselves known to the mourners, is sadly mistaken. I know from a friend who lost a relative, that they make sure they are seen by the family/mourners.
It is sad to see the death of Heath Ledger, soldiers, etc... but it's even more sad to see people use this loss to further their own ridiculous agenda.
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#82 offworlder

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:30 PM

they should just have the funeral in a private place, by invitation and those wanting one can apply and get it; and come in; a place with a big removal between the gate (uninvited like protesters) and the building (fam and guests inside paying respects) ; like it's not right on the street where the weird group can interject or affect the thing.
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#83 SparkyCola

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:39 PM

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Do you ("you" pertains to anyone, not just Lil) honestly believe that a liberal actually thinks this is okay?

*shrugs* don't ask me, I'm a Brit :p

Quote

Do you honestly believe that this was ever thought of when the right was written?

I honestly believe that's irrelevant...

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Do you honestly believe that this country would have been better off if free speech was not granted?

Of course not- that's WHY we're arguing not to encroach on people's freedom of speech :eh:


Quote

It is sad to see the death of Heath Ledger, soldiers, etc... but it's even more sad to see people use this loss to further their own ridiculous agenda.

I agree. I consider the actions of these people to be abominable - and I have a deep-seated contempt of anyone who thinks it is acceptable ethical behaviour. But that is just NOT the point here...at least, not imo.

offworlder - The actual funeral is in Australia - this is just the memorial service thankfully.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 27 January 2008 - 04:42 PM.

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#84 Nonny

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:44 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here  :sarcasm:  but it seems to me that the liberal-bashers among us want it understood that speech can only be free if it's completely unregulated and that that's the fault of liberals and that if there are any limits at all at all then that's also the fault of liberals who are then hypocrites and that famous people and those of us who spent a portion of our young lives defending the Constitution should put our loved ones at risk of imprisonment for what they might do in the face of harassment clearly meant to provoke angry, violent response while in the throes of grief for us when we kick off?  

Sometimes lately I've felt I've made the wrong sacrifices in this life.   :(  

I think it's time I watch some of the young man's movies.  I'll dedicate my viewing of Brokeback Mountain to those Westboro loonies.   :glare:
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#85 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:45 PM

View PostElara, on Jan 27 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

View PostBad Wolf, on Jan 27 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

I agree with sparky.   It *is* ironic btw that anyone who calls themselves liberal would be so gung ho to preemptively stop someone like Phelps from speaking.  

Lil

Do you ("you" pertains to anyone, not just Lil) honestly believe that a liberal actually thinks this is okay?

I'm a liberal.  Are you asking if I think it's okay, as in morally right, for Phelps and his ilk to demonstrate at this funeral?  No.  But that's actually irrelevant.

The relevant question is whether it's okay to PREVENT *any* one from demonstrating at this funeral based on the content of that demonstration.  My answer to that is, as I have said, unless there's a real safety risk or a rule that prohibits the demonstration by *anyone* regardless of content, then NO it is NOT okay to prevent them from demonstrating.  As G correctly pointed out, the price of freedom is the allowance of unpopular (hell in this case, downright disgusting) opinions.

Lil
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#86 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:46 PM

View PostNonny, on Jan 27 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong here  :sarcasm:

Consider yourself corrected.
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#87 Hibblette

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:51 PM

I'm not a liberal.

I'm a person who believes that we should all tote guns and smoke while we're doing it.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#88 Nonny

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:58 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Jan 27 2008, 01:46 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jan 27 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong here  :sarcasm:

Consider yourself corrected.
Apparently the sarcasm smilie is hard to recognize.   :rolleyes:  

And, if recognized, misunderstood.  

:headshake:

Sure hope whoever puts the Westboro loonies in their proper place manages to cover their tracks well.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#89 Nonny

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:10 PM

It seems to me that the liberal-bashers among us want it understood that speech can only be free if it's completely unregulated and that that's the fault of liberals and that if there are any limits at all at all then that's also the fault of liberals who are then hypocrites.  

Wild and free, irresponsible, and causing as much harm to others as possible.   :suspect:

As we used to say in the Air Force, FTS!!!!!  

And if speech were actually completely free, I'd be spelling that out.  

So why is deliberately provoking an angry and possibly violent response from those made vulnerable to provocation by their grief protected speech, but uttering vulgarities that harm no one not?
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#90 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:26 PM

View PostNonny, on Jan 27 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

So why is deliberately provoking an angry and possibly violent response from those made vulnerable to provocation by their grief protected speech, but uttering vulgarities that harm no one not?

If there's a real threat of violence that's a good reason to prohibit it.  But I think if the KKK is allowed to march in a Jewish neighborhood then Phelps is allowed at the funeral (but see also my comments below).

As for the comparison, well it's comparing apples and steak knives.  This is a PRIVATE board and a host is allowed to make its own rules.   What goes on on a public sidewalk in front of a memorial service is a different matter.  What I'd love is if it was actually private property.  Then someone could arrest the sob's for trespassing and the constitution wouldn't be implicated at all.
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#91 szhismine

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

Quote

there's a difference between free speech and harassment. picketing funerals and disrupting the grieving of others IS harassment.

i don't give a flying damn WHOSE funeral it is, whether it's some random gay citizen, one of those who serve this country or a fine actor like Heath Ledger who happened to choose a role to portray that the fake Reverend and his inbreds have a PROBLEM with.

i totally agree.

here's my personal opinion:

do i believe in freedom of speech: yes. (in case anyone tries to accuse me of believing otherwise)
do i believe they should be prevented from picketing and harassing people at funerals/memorials? do i believe they should be arrested and charged with harrassment, or disturbing the peace, or a hate crime? f*ck YES.
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#92 Nonny

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 06:22 PM

View PostBad Wolf, on Jan 27 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

As for the comparison, well it's comparing apples and steak knives.
Then apples and steak knives compare well.  

As do oranges and steak knives.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#93 scherzo

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 06:30 PM

Quote

I agree with sparky. It *is* ironic btw that anyone who calls themselves liberal would be so gung ho to preemptively stop someone like Phelps from speaking.
You may have a point. No one's going to mistake me for a liberal anytime soon, and I certainly have no problem with Phelps being dragged off to a night in prison for his deliberate harassment of mourners.  Seriously I completely dismiss the idea that freedom of speech, is a license for morons to take to the streets and start ruining people's day with their numbskullery. I'm reasonably sure that no one has the "right" to follow me around and scream insults at me all day for instance. Let the Westboros practice their freedom of speech somewhere a little less likely to incite trouble. This is not an unreasonable request, and will hardly trigger the end of American civilization.

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#94 Lin731

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 06:53 PM

Quote

As for the comparison, well it's comparing apples and steak knives. This is a PRIVATE board and a host is allowed to make its own rules. What goes on on a public sidewalk in front of a memorial service is a different matter. What I'd love is if it was actually private property. Then someone could arrest the sob's for trespassing and the constitution wouldn't be implicated at all.


This is true but even beyond private hosting guidelines, laws do come into play as well (some hosting guidelines are based on fear of breaking those laws).


Personally, I don't care who dies or what someone feels the need to protest about or what their political or religious leanings are...Doing it at a funeral really is nothing but harassment. It may be legal but it's beyond despicable and IMO it shouldn't be allowed...period  I beleive in freedom of speech, even when I don't like what is said but (to me) this is another matter entirely. This is invasion of privacy of a mourning family and friends, as well as harrasment and potential incite to riot. Beleive me, if they showed up at the funeral of one of my family members "potential" goes out the window cause all Hell's breaking loose. Has anyone sued these "people" (I use the term loosely) for emotional suffering?

Phelps can spout all the "God hates fags" crappolla he wants anywhere but at a funeral, that's just beyond cruel and designed to incite violence from people that are emotionally distraught in the first place.

Edited by Lin731, 27 January 2008 - 06:58 PM.

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#95 Hibblette

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 07:26 PM

Personally I think it's debatable that it's free speech.

The difference between this and the KKK marching at a Martin Luther King rally is political for both parties.  MLK would want the parades and the memory to be as such as it is for the KKK.

Now with the Jewish communities it goes beyond mourning the loss of those at the Camps, it is a remembrance and also a political statement-which then again so is the KKK or the White Supremest.

The party that is mourning at a graveside are not being political.  They are mourning.  They are remembering their loved one-despite whatever faults that loved one may have had.  One does not think of that at a funeral.

I believe it has been established that these departed ones (at the military funerals) are not gay...but that is the agenda that Phelps is politicizing.

There is no connection.  

This is not free speech.  It is harassment.

Actually I can compare this to a news rag printing an untrue story.  Freedom of the press does not mean one can print slanderous lies.

Freedom of Speech does not mean one can be slanderous to another human and especially if that human cannot defend themselves.  

This is not Freedom of Speech.
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#96 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:05 PM

I am unaware of any requirement that the location of the speech need be political.  Obviously Phelps' agenda *is* political.  It's his whole anti gay agenda which, religiously motivated or not, is *still* political from his point of view (just like the KKK agenda is political).  The issue is banning speech based on content.  That's why "content neutral" bans tend to go over better.  Like saying "no signs of any kind allowed" as opposed to singling out "signs advocating the formation of a union:.  Just for example.

Lil
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#97 Hibblette

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:38 PM

As Nonny pointed out there are certain things that we are not suppose to do in regards to Speech.  Like cursing or profanity.

Why?

Because it has been deemed by our society that it is not proper to say such words.  Not even on this board.

I remember a case of a man that saved a young woman and her child in a boating accident and he was fined for using the "F" word.  No Freedom of Speech there.

What this man is doing is cursing and slandering these people who cannot defend themselves.  This is indecent to say the least.

And indecency can be legislated against.

Remember the young man that was tasered by the Security guys at John Kerry's little press conference a few months back?  I remember some people said "Served him right...he was causing trouble."

Actually what he was doing was exercising his freedom of speech.  Phelps is not exercising any type of Freedom of Speech he is simply being indecent.
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#98 Elara

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:49 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

Do you ("you" pertains to anyone, not just Lil) honestly believe that a liberal actually thinks this is okay?

*shrugs* don't ask me, I'm a Brit :p
Well. Maybe I wasn't asking you. ;) :D

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

Do you honestly believe that this was ever thought of when the right was written?

I honestly believe that's irrelevant...
Actually, it is relevant in this thread when other posts have mentioned that it was liberals that wanted this freedom, but are whining because they don't like how it's being used. The ones that wrote the constitution sure didn't imagine these rights being twisted for such use. Even now days, just because a person may be a liberal it does not meant they want rights twisted in this manner, and in my opinion, this is twisted.

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

Do you honestly believe that this country would have been better off if free speech was not granted?

Of course not- that's WHY we're arguing not to encroach on people's freedom of speech :eh:
The questions were actually all one part and aimed at anyone who says that liberals are whining, etc.... But to address what you said, what about the freedoms of those that mourn? And I believe that is the main thing. Why does phelps' rights over shadow everyone else's? I feel there is a difference between a protest and a protest during a funeral. And that is where this "That is why freedom of speech, though not absolute, " comes in. I am thinking that since phelps lost the case against him/them, that this is something that will soon be addressed. At the very least, phelps' group will be sued again and again, until they disappear.

View PostSparkyCola, on Jan 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

It is sad to see the death of Heath Ledger, soldiers, etc... but it's even more sad to see people use this loss to further their own ridiculous agenda.

I agree. I consider the actions of these people to be abominable - and I have a deep-seated contempt of anyone who thinks it is acceptable ethical behaviour. But that is just NOT the point here...at least, not imo.

offworlder - The actual funeral is in Australia - this is just the memorial service thankfully.

Sparky
That was just my opinion. :)
El
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#99 Shalamar

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:22 PM

What I was trying to say was that G seems to think that any one who disapproves of what Phelps and his ilk are saying /doing is a liberal. AND G seems to be saying that any one who finds where Phelps is saying it is offensive is a liberal.

I find Phelps saying his hate speeech at a funeral is disgusting - that does not make me a liberal, nor does it mean I want to take away his right to say it.

I am not a liberal. I disapprove of what Phelps is doing. I never said he didn't have the right to speak his opinion. I have the right to speak mine, civilization has the right to expect that its citizens to behave by the general concensous... that was all I was saying.

Edited by Shalamar, 27 January 2008 - 10:24 PM.

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