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Level of Discourse in OT

OT Discourse Civility 2008

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#41 RobL

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 03:30 AM

Cait said:

G is just crazy. There I've said it. If we were back in the 50's he would have led the charge for the McCarthy hearings. He is just that off the wall, whacked out, crazy. He's not crazy because he is a Conservative. He'd be crazy if he was a Liberal.

You can all pat him on the head and try to find some gem in his posts to admire, but the truth is it is literally nothing but hate speech. I lost count of the groups he would like to see dead, including me personally. And while I know I'm not really threatened by G or his words, I am tired of the way he is enabled around here. He's like Helen Keller at the dinner table in "the Miracle Worker". We all have our conversations over the disruption as G waltzes around spewing his nonsense. I don't care how off policy it is to say so.

In.

Your.

Opinion.

Of course, others have the same opinion of me because of my stance on the 2nd Amendment. They would call me a backwards hillbilly or something else because I think that the foundation of our freedom is that Amendment. Hell, some of those people have posted in this thread.  

I've told Lin this, and now I'll tell you. Come April, you'll know exactly what you can do with that opinion of yours.

And QT - You might say that it was issued to everyone, but G1223 and I were mentioned by name (along with Lin, but she's probably just collateral damage at this point). We are the only ones with conservative views posting in this thread.

Edited by RobL, 10 February 2008 - 03:35 AM.

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#42 Lin731

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 03:46 AM

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How I read the quote, and how it was presented IMO it seemed like it was $150k for an individual. If it had ment "married, filing jointly" in most cases they say that. The "Fat Cat" remark was implied from your previous posts. The basic attitude (and even said outright by Drew) was "oh, sh*t, everyone you know is rich." I'm not rich. Nobody I know is rich. For me, it was an easy assumption to make, and in re-reading the thread its still there. In fact, it would probably still be the whole crux of your position if it hadn't dawned on you that not everybody gets to live in a low cost-of-living area.

Actually that's exactly what I mean (aka filing jointly because being married, I think it those terms but am also aware that those filing single can make up to 75 grand. You're free to assume whatever you like but it's wasn't even implied in my post, if it was, kindly point to it. Sometimes we take things in the way we WANT to take them. Nor did I ever imply you were rich or undeserving of a rebate. I merely pointed out the intended purpose of the rebate. As far as implying things, your post seemed to imply alot more things than mine did, in terms of who was deserving of them and who wasn't. No I didn't know where you lived but given that I never "implied" a damned thing in the first place, that's all on YOU. If you're pissed off that you're not getting a rebate check, be pissed off at the government. If you didn't like what I said about Conservativeland...Don't dish it out if ya can't take it in return, since my reply was in response to your LiberalLand comment.

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Funny, you seem to agree with a lot of hardcore liberal ideas

And disagree with alot too but that doesn't suit the label you want to plaster on me though does it Rob? So it's simpler to ignore the non-liberal opinions I have and broadbrush happily on. I wasn't aware that there were only liberals and conservatives and nothing in between, thanks for clearing that up for me.  ;)

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I couldn't give two sh*ts about illegals - they do jobs that nobody else will (scrub toilets, pick lettuce, other low paying menial jobs). As long as they don't break the law, more power to them.

Unless I'm missing something, jumping the border without a Visa IS breaking the law, so is working off the books, Identity theft to gain imployment, giving false information at hospitals and clinics to avoid paying medical bills etc...

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You believe in the right to own guns, yet you support politicans who will take that right away without a second thought.

I support a waiting period and background check, not the same thing is it? God forbid we not run out and get our guns without any check to make sure we aren't criminals or crazy.

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You believe in the military and using it to defend this country, yet, when someone does (Bush) you attack and attack and attack. Hell, you even attack the Rep. frontrunner because he has the same attitude.

I oppose war when a slack jawed idiot abuses his authority, cherry picks intell and on occassion flatout lies to declare one. I oppose the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, the trillions in debt it's created and the further destablization of an already shaky middle east. I didn't oppose Afghanistan because that made sense going into Iraq didn't. Because of it, afghanistan is becoming more violent and unstable and the Taliban are reasserting their presense in the country. Iraq wasn't even a minor player in 911, Bin Laden who actually was responsible is still free and Al Qaeda still thrives. There are valid reasons to go to war and then there's Iraq. As to McCain, IMO he's trying to win Vietnam by proxy. I respect his service to the country but I absolutley oppose continuing to pour money down a bottomless pit. How many millions are unaccounted for in Iraq? It's an obscene amount and demonstrates how imcompetently this has been handled to date. McCain thinks Iraq is winnable, I simply don't think we can do it at the barrel of a gun nor can we continue to indefinately finance it. He's also said he thinks war with Iran is inevitable, sadly it may be but the guys singing "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" seems way too damned eager to me.

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Personal responsibility is one of those "talk is cheap" things. As is support of the death penalty. You say this crap now, but you'll flip-flop as soon as you need your opinon to change.

b*llsh*t I have always said I supported the death penalty. My problem has been how many innocent people have had to be released off of deathrow recently when DNA has shown them to be innocent. THAT'S my concern with the death penalty. If we know we have the right person, if the evidence is rock solid, I have no problem with ending their miserable lives but be damned certain you DO have the right person. In cases of circumstantial evidence with nothing solid like DNA, I DON'T support it because I don't want to find out 10 years later that the wrong person died for a crime he/she didn't commit. I know, how liberal, tree-huggy of me eh?  :lol:

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Yet you blow off anyone touching the pile of filth called Bill Clinton. We hear he was a good President and God we dare not touch Jimmy Carter.

You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between being a good president and a good person, they aren't one in the same. Do I think Clinton was a good President? In many ways yes, in many ways no but I think he was a damned sight better than Bush is overall. I think he was a decent president and a very flawed person. I find his philandering disgusting, he's an oily politicians (but than I think pretty much all politicians are). I also look at what he's done since he left office, raising funds to fight aids in Africa, his joint effort with GHW Bush to raise funds for Katrina and realise that while he IS terrible flawed, he at least attempts to do good works as well. No one is wholly good or bad, things simply aren't all black and white G.

Carter, I think was an awful President, worst in my lifetime until Bush came along but as a person, I think he's a better person than Clinton or Bush will ever be.

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Sorry if the sanctimous BS I have to wade through wasn't enough I have to defend a man who has warts but he has stuck to his guns on issues rather than see what way things are going and follow the whims of polls. Even issues I disagreed with he stuck to his view. Which says he has things he think are right. Your Man Bill and the harpy his wife are going to stick only when someone else puts a boot down on them. After attempts fail to not get loose.

Yeah it's always better to lie, stonewall, disregard the law, run up a nose-bleed deficit, start an unnessary war that kills thousands and STILL "stay the course".  Yep Bush thinks he's right, problem is when he ISN'T right (which is a good chunk of the time) he's to damned arrogant and inflexible to admit it. What you call warts, I call cancer but I can see how you'd find a blow job and illicit sex sooooooo much worse than that. There's alot of things I didn't and don't like about Clinton but the damage I've seen inflicted under Bush makes that pale in comparison. Like Ron White says "Ya can't fix stupid".
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#43 Lin731

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 03:58 AM

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I've told Lin this, and now I'll tell you. Come April, you'll know exactly what you can do with that opinion of yours.

I'll be waiting Sparky and when ya do, I'll tell you where you can file it. I'm not taking any sh*t from you Rob. Just remember something, I give as good as I get, I promise ya that. No doubt afterwards you'll be crying that it's because you're Conservative, nothing new there though is it? :whistle:

Edited by Lin731, 10 February 2008 - 04:04 AM.

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#44 RobL

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 04:09 AM

View PostLin731, on Feb 10 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

Quote

I've told Lin this, and now I'll tell you. Come April, you'll know exactly what you can do with that opinion of yours.

I'll be waiting Sparky and when ya do, I'll tell you where you can file it. I'm not taking any sh*t from you Rob. Just remember something, I give as good as I get, I promise ya that. No doubt afterwards you'll be crying that it's because you're Conservative, nothing new there though is it? :whistle:

A magnificent trolling attempt. A solid C+ for effort. You could almost give lessons.

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#45 Captain Jack

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 06:25 AM

Man, this thread is just exploding with love...

What was it about again?  ***Scrolls waaaaaay up back to the top***  ah, yes, the level of discourse in OT.  Sorry about your thread, Cait.  You have my sympathies.
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#46 szhismine

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 09:33 AM

i bet if everyone on EI would be offered a million dollars (or pounds, euros, whatever ;) ) to not turn a controversial OT topic (by that i mean a topic where there are a lot of opinions and tempers can flare up quickly) into a hate-fest, and the only way everyone would get that million is if no one started up that hate-fest... well, i think the answer speaks for itself.

i am thoroughly disappointed by what happened in this thread.

and don't anyone even try to turn that into an anti-Conservative statement. :rolleyes: unless only Conservatives participated in this thread, and i can see that's not the case.

i really don't like it when someone is labelled a "liberal" or "conservative" because of an opinion. those labels really mean nothing coming from someone else. i believe abortion is murder, but i also believe there are occasions when it's acceptable. so what would that make me?

Edited by szhismine, 10 February 2008 - 10:04 AM.

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#47 Drew

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 10:19 AM

There are two benefits to having stepped away from EI for a couple years.

1) I've completely forgotten who's on which "side" (except for a few who've always made it obvious).

2) The "sides" aren't what they were. But then, they never are.

Edited by Drew, 10 February 2008 - 10:20 AM.

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#48 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 10:29 AM

View Postszhismine, on Feb 10 2008, 06:33 AM, said:

i am thoroughly disappointed by what happened in this thread.

and don't anyone even try to turn that into an anti-Conservative statement. :rolleyes: unless only Conservatives participated in this thread, and i can see that's not the case.

I agree completely.   :headshake: :headshake: :headshake:
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#49 sierraleone

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 10:38 AM

View PostDrew, on Feb 10 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

There are two benefits to having stepped away from EI for a couple years.

1) I've completely forgotten who's on which "side" (except for a few who've always made it obvious).

2) The "sides" aren't what they were. But then, they never are.

You might remember me better by my former avatar, the bouncy bunny ;)

I've never taken such a long break, but there were certainly times I went away for several weeks. Definately needed at times.

In 2) do you mean they weren't what you thought they were (as in hasn't changed, but you'd viewed the 'sides' differently and/or saw things as more gray), OR do you mean people have changed 'sides', or somewhere in the middle?
I tend to see things grayly (is that a word) which for some automatically translates to liberal ;) (though true, I am more liberal than conservative, but I live as a conservative... does that make sense?). There are very few people on this board I see only as conservative or liberal, one must be pretty extreme for me to only label one or the other, (G1223 and Hambil) because people are so multifaceted. If someone thinks 'liberal' 66 % of the time, and things 'conservative' 33 % of the time, I would resist labelling them. Besides, both sides can seem contradictory if you look close enough at them and follow all their beliefs through to possible ends ;) Thats why I imagine most societies work best in a mixed system. IMO of course. But then I'm a Canadian and we have universal health care, what do I know :)
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#50 Themis

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:05 AM

Cait, I am in total agreement but don't have the nerve to post your "attack".  G is very, very, very passionate about many things, but rarely is able to speak or post well thought out statements to back up his passions.  I'll generously allow that it could just be writing ability...  In person he is equally passionate and tends to go on and on speaking about that passion.  I once had a dinner conversation with him about some - to me - nitpicky point about Andromeda and I couldn't escape.  G, you can be a great guy.  You're the one who wants to get hotel suites at cons for a group gathering place, get flowers for the ladies in the group, etc. etc.  But if someone pushes a button, intentionally or not...where's the "off" switch?   G, at least you care.  You don't just have the world on "ignore."  Having passions is a good thing.   But so is being able to write logically about them instead of spewing insults.

OK, had to post this.  We'll probably both get warnings and threads may be deleted or closed.  Hopefully they'll be read first.  

On hot-button topics, it would probably help if people composed their posts in their word processing program, read them over, edited, etc. before posting.  Won't happen.  And it's too bad.  I am happy to read opposing opinions backed with facts or reason.  Food for thought.  But slings and arrows invite the same sort of response.  Don't just react with your gut...react with your mind.  "Sam s**ks" doesn't really add a lot to a discussion...

At least people are interested in these topics - that's one of the things that makes EI my "all-purpose" bulletin board despite the whole Andromeda saga that always had me on the defensive.  Slings and arrows or not, some posts make me think and wonder what's behind those slings and arrows and doing some research if I have time.  I can read entertainment news in one section, scientific news in another and general news/political news in others.  This is a valuable place.  I guess that, once we have read enough posts from a particular person, we sort of anticipate what they might say and just "consider the source" on different threads.  If we see quoted factual sources in a person's post we might usually mentally ignore, we can pause, otherwise just skip over.  

I don't think we'll  change anyone's posting style.  But after enough posts from someone, we know the style and can just skip over posts or consider the source.....
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#51 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:07 AM

I'm liberal on most social issues but don't get me started on illegal immigration.  I find that I'm getting more and more conservative when it comes to fiscal matters.  

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#52 Annibal

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:12 AM

View PostRobL, on Feb 10 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

And QT - You might say that it was issued to everyone, but G1223 and I were mentioned by name (along with Lin, but she's probably just collateral damage at this point). We are the only ones with conservative views posting in this thread.

I posted in this thread and I have conservative views. This may be because I am a conservative. Yet, I guess I come off as a liberal, because the only ones who have ever gotten all growly at me in the OT have been you and G. Maybe living in Boulder has given me expert ninja hiding techniques to avoid arguments on street corners.

What I've seen in OT is that everyone holds what they belief so close that if someone says something they "know" is "wrong" (ie different from what they believe), we sort of read it as a personal attack even if it isn't, and then eventually it gets around to ACTUAL personal attacks. I really admire many people here BECAUSE they hold their beliefs so close.

Everyone gets so incensed about their politics. Until the personal attacks come, I think it's great that people here are so passionate about what they believe. Even if it's aimed negatively at me. Maybe it's the Youth-in-America generation I'm around so much, but I get so used to apathy about everything, when someone's as vocal about everything as they are here it's refreshing. Even if I entirely disagree with them.

So, I agree with Cait's original post. It would be nice if everyone here could discourse without thoroughly bashing politicians, groups of people, ways of thinking, etc, and talk about everything with a calm rational and without insult, but I also think that everyone would then have to disconnect from their personal beliefs a bit. The problem is, if you disconnect from your beliefs, there's always that bit of fear that they'll get taken away, or get replaced, or whatever.

Did any bit of that make sense? I think I started getting abstract. Anywho,  :upside:
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#53 Nonny

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:15 AM

View PostAnnibal, on Feb 9 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

Is this a bad time to throw in the old, "can't we all just get along?"  :drunk: <= like this!
Sigh.  It's an American presidential election year.  Faster your seatbelt.  

{{{{{{{Annibal}}}}}}}

Edited by Nonny, 10 February 2008 - 11:17 AM.

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#54 Drew

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:23 AM

What I meant was that not only do people change their views over time, but the meanings change as well. What "conservative" meant 10 years ago is not the same as what "conservative" means today. Same with "liberal." I'm not sure there were ever any good defintions for these things. They're more like personal labels with highly personal meanings. That is to say, everyone knows what they mean when they call themselves "liberal" or "conservative," but they may not necessarily mean the same thing as others who call themselves by the same label.

Of course, I live in a state with conservative environmentalists, Democrat gun-nuts, gay Republicans, and lesbian hippies who pollute the ground water. So I'm naturally confused.

View Postsierraleone, on Feb 10 2008, 09:38 AM, said:

There are very few people on this board I see only as conservative or liberal, one must be pretty extreme for me to only label one or the other, because people are so multifaceted.

And that, too. Hardly anyone I know would fit squarely into these boxes, and I think recognition of that is what allows people of apparently different viewpoints to be able to talk about these issues cordially.

But the extremists are easy to pick out, and hard to actually have a conversation with. I tune them out.
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#55 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 11:25 AM

View PostRobL, on Feb 10 2008, 03:30 AM, said:

And QT - You might say that it was issued to everyone, but G1223 and I were mentioned by name (along with Lin, but she's probably just collateral damage at this point). We are the only ones with conservative views posting in this thread.

That was a two part post - commentary on some of the thing said in the thread, and subsequently - a request for EVERYONE to back off.  Also - it requires a bit of cherry picking to simply dismiss my mention of Lin as "collateral damage," and the only reason to do it is to advance a theory that only conservatives are being told to cool it.  It doesn't even pass the smell test.

If I can split the post to make that point more clearly I will.  But I don't think I can. (Now found out that I definitely cannot.)

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 10 February 2008 - 11:41 AM.

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#56 Julianus

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 12:28 PM

Maybe I don't read enough of the posts here, but I don't find the language of most members too offensive most of the time. The board administration does a good job of allowing people to express themselves. Passion for an issue or candidate can certainly overcome people at times, and the administrators deal with those issues thoughtfully as best they can, imo.
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#57 SparkyCola

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 12:40 PM

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I've told Lin this, and now I'll tell you. Come April, you'll know exactly what you can do with that opinion of yours.

Why do you have to do that Rob? Man I'm naive sometimes. For a moment there I thought you kinda liked some things about EI, and that you lent your time and respect and thoughtfulness both to the forum and the people. Sometimes I just set myself up to by disappointed. But you don't care what I have to say right? Because, I'm a "liberal", the most conservative British party we have is still "liberal" as far as US is concerned, so I'm not worth reading. :( You'll dismiss this post along with everyone else's I know, just wanted to say it's a shame. It's a shame we couldn't earn your respect like you earned ours, that's all. Really that's all, there's no need to start picking on me next and making threats about what you're going to do in April. :sarcasm: It just...it makes me sad. Not that you care.

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I'll be waiting Sparky and when ya do,

Huh, that really confused me for a moment Lin :p

szh - yep. sierra- yep. And you make much more sense than you give yourself credit for, I always enjoy your posts. It's not an effort to understand ;)

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cait}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sheesh, I don't know what to say. As a mod of OT I feel kinda embarrassed on behalf of the forum. This thread is ironic, and painful to read. And depressing. REALLY depressing.

I once PM'd Specs this, but I'll just say it here anyways, I may be wrong, but it's the Sparky- evaluation of the OT partisan dynamic. Spoilered for just those who want to make this about parties, instead of what it really is about -and that is basic decency, common courtesy and just downright consideration and manners.

Spoiler: click to show/hide
Somewhat generalised, but I hope you'll get the gist anyway.

The republicans are a minority, and are therefore presented with far more "baiting" material (i.e. posts they seriously disagree with and that seriously tick them off) than democrats. Because of that they are more inclined to break the rules.

Being a minority, they are concerned that some of the sanctions they get are not about breaking the GLs, but because they disagree with the majority view. They also think it's unfair because of the point I made above (ie. they have more posts to deal with which really annoy them, after all, everyone has a breaking point)

Now, the democrats see that the republicans come close to the line very often, and are let off a lot. They think this is unfair.

But it's all about proportionality and how we see things. The staff are just the same with democrats and republicans. We have democrats who behave just the same as republicans sometimes, and we treat them exactly the same. It's just no one notices when they get let off, I think largely because most people agreed with what they said. But the republicans notice, and that's why they think there is a conspiracy.

What I'm trying to say is that just because one group go close to the line a lot and get let off a lot - well, that doesn't mean we're giving them MORE leeway, it's just that they are using the leeway we give to *everyone* a lot more often. They need it more often, because it's harder to be a republican on a mainly democratic forum. Does that make sense? :unsure:

Well anyways, like I said, that's just how I see things, and you probably all disagree. But as said before- this isn't about that. Unless there's one party policy somewhere that I missed which says "Be rude and hateful"


Annibal - yeah, why CAN'T we all just get along? Because people put partisanship before friendship, which is just. wrong.

Listen, if you all in this thread right now, agree with Cait that discourse is not so great right now? There's something you can do about it. Raise the bar yourself. Even if you disagree you might take the time to think "Hey, some people aren't happy with the hate in here, maybe I can show some self restraint and some courtesy and maybe dial back on the mindless hate, and show a thoughtful dislike instead." or maybe you care more for your own selfish passionate hate than you do about the other people on this board, in which case I suggest this might be the wrong board, because EI is a community where everyone matters. G matters. Cait matters. Rob matters. Lin matters. And their feelings matter too. Putting guidelines in to that effect would be wrong. But the right thing to do is acknowledge the feelings of other people  - other than just yourself. I'm not saying turn into a different person - no one on here is so selfish that thinking of other people would turn them into someone else. It's just - things don't HAVE to be this way. Do you get it? They don't HAVE to be spiteful and hateful and sarcastic and malevolent all the time. You can discuss with manners and propriety, conveying everything you want to, just with a little tiny extra bit of time before posting. That's all.

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#58 sierraleone

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 12:56 PM

[quote name='SparkyCola' post='1084665' date='Feb 10 2008, 12:40 PM']szh - yep. sierra- yep. And you make much more sense than you give yourself credit for, I always enjoy your posts. It's not an effort to understand ;)[/quote]

Maybe its just me then, because I get lost while writing my posts ;)
*what was I talking about again? oh yeah... now I'm talking about this? um, it all ties together somehow doesn't it*
Thats basically what I'm thinking/feeling every other post I put up ;) Nice to know it makes more sense to you guys than it does me.
But then because I'm not so well researched/knowlegdeble as some, and mainly talk about my opinions and/or feelings, I can't exactly put things in bulletin form ;)
I like to imagine my mind is organized, and when I post here I feel anything but ;)

[quote]{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cait}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sheesh, I don't know what to say. As a mod of OT I feel kinda embarrassed on behalf of the forum. This thread is ironic, and painful to read. And depressing. REALLY depressing.

I once PM'd Specs this, but I'll just say it here anyways, I may be wrong, but it's the Sparky- evaluation of the OT partisan dynamic. Spoilered for just those who want to make this about parties, instead of what it really is about -and that is basic decency, common courtesy and just downright consideration and manners.[quote]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SparkyCola}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I feel what you put in the spoiler thing is probably about the gist of it

*huggles OT and its posters while she is at it*
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#59 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

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  • 8,774 posts

Posted 10 February 2008 - 01:43 PM

View PostRobL, on Feb 9 2008, 11:47 PM, said:

Gigi said:

I made 17 grand last year.

You must not be working full time. Because if you did, when I divide $17k by 2080, I get $8.17 an hour. Which is less than the state minimum wage, IIRC. You would be better off working at McDonalds than doing whatever you do.

I am a freelance artist. That was billable time. I had to spend a lot of time learning new web code. Hopefully this year will be better. But, yeah, two years ago I was making $8.50 per hour working at a friend's gift store (it was off the books) several days a week and coming home to work on client projects. Around here $10.00 per hour is about standard.  That is why a lot of people drive in rush hour traffic to San Jose to make a decent wage.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#60 Spectacles

Spectacles
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  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 February 2008 - 01:59 PM

Dammit, I was going to let my contribution to this topic be my silence. I really wish you hadn't mentioned my name, Sparky, especially in this context. But since you have, to CLARIFY, your PM to me about the "liberals and conservatives" was in response to this remark via PM from me:

Quote

Well, when you let a few break get away with murder because you assume they just can't be asked to follow the guidelines, that's what happens.

Notice that I'm not speaking of conservatives. Nor did I mention conservatives at all in that PM. I was referring to behavior, not ideology. And yet you failed to see that and assumed that I was talking about conservatives. And so your response had not a thing to do with what I was saying. To add to the aggravation, your response is now plastered here without context, possibly leading others to assume that I was complaining about conservatives getting preferential treatment--which is NOT AT ALL what our discussion was about. This exchange was after I had gone around and around and around on the board about an issue that some tried to make into a liberal-conservative fight when it was not, which was what I tried--and failed--to get you to see. It was maddening enough that you failed to grasp that in our private discussion without creating here the impression that you had to explain to me how staff handles the conservative-liberal divide. So...gee thanks. I know what's gonna follow now, and who it's going to come from.

To reiterate Cait's point, which is apparently on its way to being lost, much of the time the angst is not about politics at all. It's about being assholes. And assholishness is definitely bipartisan.

But as long as the staff is hoodwinked into thinking that every discussion really *is* about politics, then the real issue--the posting behavior of some, not some conservatives nor some liberals but some EI members--is not addressed.

As I tried to get you to see in PM, the staff has seemed to operate under the assumption that if you're just nice enough to someone, he can change. In reality, life rarely works that way. Usually, when you continue to be nice to someone who shows he's incapable of returning the favor, you're enabling him to be an *a$$h*le. And that's what has happened here.

I was quietly out the door here as of last week anyway, but this cinches it. You have NO idea how frustrated I am that you continue to give credence to this nonsense that it's all about politics. It's exactly like the story Cait told about the guy who accused her of being a racist because she turned down his advances since she was friends with his girlfriend. This whole "it's because we're conservatives!" bit is just a way to avoid individual responsibility and manipulate the staff. And it works very, very well.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



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