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Is anyone else disappointed in OT?

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#41 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:08 AM

Jid, on Jun 24 2003, 01:03 PM, said:

Isn't it amazing how quickly both sides are willing to revert to labelling and other old habits?

Good day, Orbis Terrarum.
Jid I love you.


But you are out of line.

Some people *got* that Christopher was insulting us from the very first post in this thread but others (like QT) tried to give him  the benefit of the doubt.

He cleared up his intent quite clearly with his last post.

I don't know about you but I consider myself to be pretty damned intelligent and capable of carrying on a decent conversation about most things.

I don't need some priggish sounding self styled intellectual to tell me that I'm not smart enough to post here.

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#42 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:13 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jun 24 2003, 03:53 PM, said:

Quote

But all I hear in your words is kneejerk, dumbed-down, us-vs.-them polemic, stirring up hatred and hostility between factions instead of seeking to synthesize opposing viewpoints for the good of everyone. And there's nothing in that which I can respect, no matter which side of the political spectrum it's on.)

At the risk of sounding polemic:

THAT IS A CROCK.

Nice going Christopher.  Way to insult everybody.
That was specifically directed at Ogami, unless I read wrong... and not all of O.T. ....

editing to add: not that that means it was a fair statement...

Edited by QueenTiye, 25 June 2003 - 07:18 AM.

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#43 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:23 AM

Okay I went an reread that post.

And while it is true that that particular line was directed specifically at Ogami, the whole post is still insulting to me.

Apparently we're not up to snuff.

Well you know what?

Maybe  he shoud expend as much energy on creating and maintaining some of the lofty discussion the remainder of we peons are incapable of as he has in dissing this forum and its members.
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#44 Nikki Peppermint

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:24 AM

Well, okay....I don't post here that often.....but it's fun reading stuff now and then.  So with my limited to no participation to back me up, I think this is a neat forum.  Those who post seem happy with it otherwise they wouldn't post, I'd imagine.  It seems to me that anyone can post what they think is interesting to them, and if people are interested they'll respond back.

I like this forum.


#45 Rov Judicata

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:25 AM

To clarify:

Quote

No matter what Ogami claims, that's what matters most to me -- that people base their opinions on the full range of evidence, absorbed with an open mind, rather than just swallowing the ideology or propaganda of one side or the other, rather than just reducing everything to some simplistic black-and-white caricature.

Christopher said that. The mere fact that this thread exists is proof that he thinks that at least some of us are doing the latter, not the former.

I'm sure I'm not alone in finding that insulting. I've found the discourse in this forum to be a pleasure, and I hate to see somebody diss it so casually because it's not what they want.

And great post Nikki :D
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#46 Rov Judicata

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:26 AM

Nikki Peppermint, on Jun 24 2003, 01:25 PM, said:

It seems to me that anyone can post what they think is interesting to them, and if people are interested they'll respond back.

I like this forum.
Exactly.

It's on this simple premise that a forum lives and breathes.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#47 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:30 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Jun 24 2003, 01:26 PM, said:

Christopher said that. The mere fact that this thread exists is proof that he thinks that at least some of us are doing the latter, not the former.

I'm sure I'm not alone in finding that insulting. I've found the discourse in this forum to be a pleasure, and I hate to see somebody diss it so casually because it's not what they want.
You most certainly NOT alone in feeling insulted!

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#48 QueenTiye

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:30 AM

Again jumping in, because it feels like open season on Christopher (to me...)

I agree that Christopher should address his concerns more proactively by creating the kind of stuff in here that he wants to see.  I started by saying that in the first place.

But I really don't get where everybody is coming from claiming that Christopher ever implied that the fact that that HASN'T happened means that anyone here is incapable of making it happen, or contributing to it happening.

There is a defensive reaction that I'm not understanding.  Christopher is disappointed that the forum didn't go the way he thought it would...  I'm not surprised at all! Usually when I'm sitting back waiting for something to magically become what I want it to become, I'm disappointed too... I've learned that what I want, I have to create!  So?  Does this mean that I think thta nobody else can?  No - it just means that I have to (because I want it).  In fact, I'd argue that the fact that there's all this sitting back and waiting indicates just the opposite - a fundamental belief that this group CAN (and therefore should) do what he's hoping...

But... like I said, when you want something done, you do it yourself!  Remember the Gene-ites founding?  I argued that it should be done instead of us arguing and bickering about things.  Who was involved in the argument? Anyone know where bamboozled is? Who wound up founding the Gene-ites? :rolleyes:  But once founded - didn't it have legs of its own?  Pretty proud of that little achievement myself...

Fact of life I guess...


OOPS - in case it isn't obvious - the last paragraph is kinda talking to Christopher...

Edited by QueenTiye, 25 June 2003 - 07:32 AM.

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#49 Bossy

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:31 AM

Christopher, on Jun 24 2003, 02:47 PM, said:

But the point was that it was supposed to be about discussing the social science behind current events, just as EtU is for discussing the sciences behind SF.  It's still discussing current events, but in a more in-depth manner -- not just engaging in the debate, but providing background and context for the debate, and presenting hard data and scholarship as a counterweight to raw polemic.

And I think that is just what has been done in most cases. Well, as close as you can come in social sciences anyway. Social sciences involves far more than just numbers and figures and analysis of raw data. These areas of study are very much tied to human behavior, something isn't always rational, logical, predictable, or even measureable.

Quote

Remember, Sid, what you and I did so much on the Andromeda Forum's periodic debates about Islam?  When some people would come along spouting anti-Islamic rhetoric or misconceptions or myths, we'd respond with a heavy dose of hard information, detailed explanations of the history and actual teachings of Islam and the political history and social science of the Islamic world, as an antidote to the stereotypes and misinformation that those people were basing their opinions on.  That's what I wanted OT to be -- a place where people could come to gain a full, nuanced understanding on which to base their opinions.

Is this not the very thing that has been happening? Like it or not, study of the social sciences is going to involve peoples beliefs and why they hold them. You cannot seperate the beliefs of the people composing a society from the social structures within that society.

It seems to me that you have really gotten hung up about the recent homophobia/same sex marriages/religion based threads. By discussing with others what they believe and why, we have been exploring what our opinions are based on. There have been, from all sides of these issues, a "healthy dose" of the historical and cultural context for the basis of the various beliefs. I fail to see how this is any different from the example you are citing.

Quote

No matter what Ogami claims, that's what matters most to me -- that people base their opinions on the full range of evidence, absorbed with an open mind, rather than just swallowing the ideology or propaganda of one side or the other, rather than just reducing everything to some simplistic black-and-white caricature.  Like Aaron Sorkin, I care far less about right vs. left than I do about intelligent, responsible politics vs. shallow factionalism.  (Ogami, there are conservatives whose positions I respect, because I respect the thought that went into them.  But all I hear in your words is kneejerk, dumbed-down, us-vs.-them polemic, stirring up hatred and hostility between factions instead of seeking to synthesize opposing viewpoints for the good of everyone.  And there's nothing in that which I can respect, no matter which side of the political spectrum it's on.)
I haven't seen a whole lot of stirring up of hatered for the opposition here. Sure, there were some heated comments and some misunderstandings. However, the vast majority of people worked past those and were able to express why they believe such and such a thing to be true. When I have read the recent threads, I have seen people come to an understanding of why someone believes such and such, even if they don't agree.

What I see you saying Christopher is that because you do not accept the validity of what some people base their decisions and beliefs upon, then they have no place in the kind of "scholarly" debate you want to see. You wish to dictate what sort of information is brought to a discussion. If you don't like the source of the information, then it is raw polemic. Well, then really, what is the point of discussion? You have already decided what is worthwhile.

#50 tennyson

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:52 AM

Well, um, I have tried to provide as much evidence to backup my conclusions as well as provide information on  topics for the persusal of the general population to the limits of what my own realworld schedule allows and I think there have been some fine discussions. I'm more or less fine with what this has become although I wish that more people had responded to some of my posts but that will happen I guess. I don't think I use simple polemic in my discussions of events and by the very nature of how I deal with the information that enters me I get it from a large variety of sources and have a wide variety of places to draw things from.
But what I've noticed here is that it is easy to get hurt feelings or become angry and sometimes discussions will devolve into the mental equivalent of two bricks grinding against each other, but that happens in academia as well as in other areas. For example, I think Ogami does have some valid points but he has a very undiplomatic way of saying them which doesn't help him win friends and influence people but it's not my place to attempt to change him nor would it be in my place to try to change( nor would it be healthy for me) the legendarily fiery Lil. I use these two people as examples because they are near the opposite ends of the political spectrum and very vocal members and that's fine. I really don't see what is so wrong.
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#51 Kimmer

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:58 AM

Meekly raising hand ... may I speak? Thanks!

As one who opposed the formation of this forum, I'm here to tell you it's my second favorite place at Ex Isle. My first stop is always GMD, then I come here. I seldom visit the beach any longer. Sometimes Reviews, but that depends on my time.

I like the diversity of the topics I find here, and since the general description reads:
Orbis Terrarum
History, Politics, and Current Events

I think the discussions (with some exceptions, and I'll post in that other thread on those) are right on the money. If you find this forum lacking in a particular type of topic, then perhaps you should start threads covering those topics. I don't join in every thread, but I do read most of them and find them interesting. I'm always pleased that - for the most part - we can discuss all these topics civilly and like adults.

Just my quarters worth, spend the change as you wish.
--kimmer

#52 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:08 AM

{{{{{{{{{{{{kimmer}}}}}}}}}}}}}

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#53 Morrhigan

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:15 AM

Good grief, did someone declare it an official "Smack Christopher Around Day" while I wasn't looking?

I understand what he was saying, and I kinda feel the same way. So you're not alone, Chris. Could he have found a more palatable way to say it? Probably. But he didn't. So what. I don't see what he said that warrants the kind of hostility and name-calling that followed. He eventually let loose on Ogami, but those two or three sentences weren't any more inflammatory than most of Ogami's posts baiting liberals, IMO. :lol:

The man stated a preference, and a disappointment that things hadn't turned out as he'd hoped. If you want to take that as a personal insult, I guess that's your perogative. Just seems pretty silly to me.

Christopher, I doubt I can engage in scholarly discussion on the level you'd like, but I do agree about wanting to discuss facts and information instead of seeing who can come up with the cleverest insults to throw at the "other side." I want to discuss, not argue. The difference? An argument is a battle between two or more sides in which each tries to convince the other who's right. Arguments are about winning. Discussion, on the other hand, is about different ideas and thoughts coming together. It's about learning from each other, not scoring points.

When it comes to politics and religion, there is far more argument than discussion. Not just here, but everywhere. It's a sad fact of human nature. I would love to see discussion thrive here in OT, and am disappointed that argument has prevailed, but I'm not surprised. It isn't something that can be forced by a moderator. So, I try to avoid the arguments and to encourage true discussion whenever I find it by participating. There's not really anything else I can think of to do about it.

Morrhigan
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#54 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:21 AM

Quote

Could he have found a more palatable way to say it? Probably. But he didn't. So what.

So he reaps the whirlwind.:p

He didn't have to be insulting.

I don't respond well to insults, especially insults to my intellect.

:)

Lil
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#55 Morrhigan

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:28 AM

Well, we ALL know that if ya say something that Lil finds insulting, you're gonna reap the whirlwind. If you want to raise the level of a discussion, do NOT piss off the Lil.  :rolleyes:

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#56 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:30 AM

LOL!!!!

Point!

That doesn't change the fact that Christopher basically accused us all of not being sufficiently intellectual for him.

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#57 Morrhigan

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:40 AM

You could choose to look at it that way... sounds to me like he pushed some buttons. But y'know what? Ogami pushes my buttons nearly every time I read one of his posts. I guess I could just go off on him every time I feel insulted by his liberal bashing, but life is too short and I'm too lazy. Why bother?

Morrhigan
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#58 Drew

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:43 AM

Morrhigan, on Jun 24 2003, 04:41 PM, said:

. . . but life is too short and I'm too lazy. Why bother?
Ooo! Ooo! The Pests rise again!  :hehe:
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#59 Bad Wolf

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:44 AM

Morrhigan, on Jun 24 2003, 02:41 PM, said:

You could choose to look at it that way... sounds to me like he pushed some buttons. But y'know what? Ogami pushes my buttons nearly every time I read one of his posts. I guess I could just go off on him every time I feel insulted by his liberal bashing, but life is too short and I'm too lazy. Why bother?

Morrhigan
I guess we all choose our own battles.

Ogami annoys me at times.  Sometimes I tell him so and sometimes I ignore.

But one thing he's never done is tell the entire community that they're not um.......smart enough in their posting.

Frankly, I prefer the liberal bashing but that's me.

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#60 Morrhigan

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 09:07 AM

Whereas I don't feel upset by a bit of snobbery, LOL. Diff'rent buttons for diff'rent folks, I reckon.

Morrhigan
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